Beavah

Yah, BadenP, me thinks yeh just jumped the shark, eh? Your strong personal feelings and prejudices are com in' through, but I don't think you're presenting a very objective analysis of history. And I'm not a victim of Catholic propaganda. I think where yeh completely miss the mark is when yeh anthropomorphize institutions. That just gets silly, and is always a prejudiced and inaccurate way of thinking . "The Church" doesn't do anything. People do things. So when yeh talk about "the Crusades", your lack of understanding shows. The Crusades were largely da political acts of nations or the personal acts of adventurers, driven by economics and social forces as much as anything. Da Greek-Roman schism followed the relative political fortunes of the eastern and western empire, eh? By and large it was da secular governments that "put people to death". Is it rational to blame Islam for the Taliban? Or were they rather the leaders of the Afghan goveernment who happened to be Islamic? Most of da religious stuff you mention was a product of the political and economic stuff, not its own cause. By taking things out of context and anthropomorphizing an institution or group, yeh can always create justification for prejudice. I get that yeh have a few priest friends who don't like da current pope. I have a lot of friends who don't like da current president. That doesn't mean that the U.S. is an awful place. Beavah

Yah, I reckon lots of kids in scout units split tents. And cook gear and other things. When packing a backpack, it just makes things easier. Not just for weight, but for bulk and volume and proper loading, too. Can't see where this is an adult problem. Your lad is 12, not 3. Time yeh stopped carrying him. The lesson here is that if yeh borrow something that isn't yours, you take better care of it than your own stuff, and return it clean and whole. And if you lose or break it, yeh buy a new one. Good lesson to learn at his age. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, OK, things were a bit quiet here, and rather than start YAMET*, I thought I'd bkring up a different topic. I'm an old fellow, eh? I never remember da sheer number of lads that we see these days in counseling or on a full out drug cocktail. Often times it seems they're gettin' da full psych workup for stuff I consider just being an ordinary boy. Sometimes just because their parents don't like their grades and want an excuse or "special accommodations." Da thing is, despite all the counseling and drugging, I can't say as I've ever really seen improvement. The counseling and drugging just keeps goin' and goin', or da person just gets better at the same rate I'd expect from the healing effects of time. In fact, oft as not da counseling stuff seems to get in da way of ordinary healing over time by picking at things. Counselors in particular seem to be at an awful disadvantage, eh? I can't see how a session in an office gets yeh any information on or influence over da environment that a lad is in the other 6 days 23 hours of the week. I've seen lots of lads "play" counselors, and quite a few counselors that seem to "play" kids in that they get satisfaction over being "involved" but don't really seem to care or think about outcomes. I cant say as I'd agree that da average counselor can do any better than random chance in a double-blind experiment where yeh looked at outcomes, and from what I've seen of da school psychologist types I reckon their statistics might be worse than random . Now maybe one of da fellows who does this work can convince me that there's merit in da actual practice. I'm open to that. Or maybe others will jump in who think it's worse, and these folks don't pass da "first do no harm" test. But I reckon I'd learn something, and so would some others. So how 'bout it? Is there really any merit to da modern practice of da psych professions for kids? Beavah *Yet Another Merlyn-Ed Thread(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Outside of Havelina (in spite of what any field manuals might state) there are no other herd animals in the central desert. Antelope, deer and elk are exclusively limited to the mountains to the north, about 75 miles. Yah, a whole 75 miles, eh? That's nuthin' more than an average day trip distance around here. What are yeh doin' this Saturday? Bet your son would love to take a ride to go try to track some burros. Even in your local area, yeh say that you have cougar, coyote, etc. Yeh can't have big predator animals without prey. It's one of those biology things your son can tell you about when he's done with tracking and environmental science. And yeh need to re-read da requirements anyways. # Submit evidence that he has scored at least 30 points from the following groups: Group (f) and 4 of the 5 groups (a), (b), ©, (d), (e) must be represented in the score of 30 and at least 7 points must be scored from (a), (b), or ©. Make clear recognizable photographs of a. Live bird away from nest - 4 points each b. Live woodchuck or smaller wild animal - 3 points each c. Live wild animal larger than woodchuck - 4 points each can be the group that is dropped d. Live bird on nest - 3 points each e. Tracks of live wild animal or bird - 2 points each AND f. Make satisfactory plaster cast of wild animal or bird tracks with identification imprint on back of cast - 2 points each Most intrepid youngsters with just a bit of coaching can take on this challenge. Don't sell your son and his friends short. This can be a great badge that really appeals to "boyishness" and adventure, while teaching patience and grit. B(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, I imagine Climbing MB is hard for a lad in da rural plains states. Nothing to climb on within a day's drive, and no artificial climbing gyms close by either. Sailing MB is probably hard in da desert, too . Sometimes, some areas have more resources than others. Still, I'm surprised by da notion of not having anything worth tracking in an area. Reading the requirements, yeh have to track two wild animals for some distance. Birds are allowed/included. That doesn't seem hard. In fact, it's a lot easier in the desert than tryin' to track birds in da Eastern forests. Then yeh have to manage to get a photograph of a bunch of critters totaling 30 points based on the point system. There is no requirement to get a photograph of an animal bigger than a woodchuck, since yeh can total the points out of 4 of the 5 categories. So even if there were only a few nocturnal big critters that E61's son didn't have the gumption to try to catch on film, he could still earn the badge on smaller critters. If there are coyotes and Havelina and rattlesnake, then there are going to be lots of smaller prey animals around, eh? Kangaroo rats, jackrabbit, etc. Also some bigger herd animals on the arid periphery like pronghorn antelope and mule deer. Then there are all da other reptile species. Da southwest deserts are far from da lifeless sand dunes of the Sahara. Pick up a field book for the area and have at it! The challenge is part of the fun for the boys. Beavah

Yah, it's just fine,eh? Just make sure yeh cover the safety bases - swim checks for water activities, health and medical form and permission slip, appropriate skill training for technical activities. Sometimes the older 7th and 8th grade boys bring a guest and da guest naturally wants to keep up with them, but doesn't have their experience. Remember to treat the guests like a new scout in terms of skills and safety planning, no matter what their age. Beavah

Yah, I remember this Klingon translator story. Of course it turned out to be just a bit overhyped. Still, it was a fun notion: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,86550,00.html Perhaps Klingon is more useful than Latin, eh? Even mental health patients don't choose to speak only Latin. Beavah

Some latin is going to be brought back into a more frequent or common usage in the church instead of, used just on special occasions or by the choir. So what? Yah, no skin off my nose. It'll help da other Christian faiths gain more congregants Da thing is, though, Catholics have a big footprint, eh? Yeh get a lot more media attention than the rest of us, and in some ways yeh "represent" Christendom. I just find it sad to see yeh retreating back to bad habits. It weakens the cause of Christianity when yeh dabble in this sort of stuff. Folks can point to you and say "see how it's all just mythical opera? Like da language they used the ideas died out a long time ago." Putting form ahead of substance is a weak form of idolatry, eh? Putting churchliness ahead of Godliness is the same thing. There was a stretch in there where yeh were taking the lead on social teaching. Now, 20 some years after your bishops had the temerity to issue a Christian challenge to unconstrained capital markets they have been vindicated. In that same twenty years your faithful more than any other ripped down the walls of communism brick by brick, prayer by prayer. Your refreshed faith after the Council dared to challenge both the entrenched powers and the revolutionaries across da Latin world. And now, having demonstrated the awesome power and foresight that's possible with a deeply Christian perspective, you are retreating back to navel-gazing and historical re-enactment rather than living Christendom. Yeh could unite us, but you're retreating to emphasizing those things which separate us. From da perspective of one of your separated brethren, it's a cryin' shame. But we'll still pray for yeh. Beavah

Yah, moosetracker, how a district or council handles da approval KC mentions is different all over the place. Some send reps to troops on demand and conduct project reviews with the unit committee. Some do what you describe and hold district reviews once a month. Some have da lad just send the project report to the DAC after the unit approves and he or she approves by remote, or has a separate meeting. All kinds lof things. Sounds like this case is one of the latter, and the DAC is out of town. Good lesson for the boy that not everybody revolves around his needs, and plans need to allow for delays caused by others not being immediately available. Lining up donations in advance is not a problem. Receiving them is. So what packsaddle said . Beavah

Temper tantrums are a great way to get attention, eh? Sometimes with a lad this age yeh can deal with it with peer feedback. A roses and thorns session where his buddies ask him why he's being such a baby carries a lot more weight than an adult conversation. Occasionally yeh can sentence him to go hug a tree quietly. So yeh reward the attention-seeking behavior by isolation/time out. Only if he obeys, though. Only other way to change such an entrenched behavior is to make da behavior not work, so he doesn't get attention for it. Easiest way to do that is to say "yah, hey, you're clearly not ready for da challenge of this campout so I'm sending you home.". You'll have to be ready to follow through immediately a couple of times, and execute without allowing any negotiation, ignoring all da hoopla and angst. Just simple consequence for simple behavior. I'd certainly look into whether there are other things goin' on. Home life, other psychological stuff, etc. Yeh might want to sit with the parents and say "here's what we're seeing and it's really not developmentally appropriate for a lad of his age. We think you should seek some professional help for him.". Odds are da parents enable the behavior and need some help, too. B (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, hmmm... So I was goin' to stay out of this, but it's just too rich, eh? And besides, OGE hasn't sentenced me to one of da layers of hell or stories of purgatory or whatnot in a while:). So perhaps one of yeh can explain how chanting in a dead language that nearly none of your faithful understands is somehow conducive to faith in the Lord? I'm a fairly ecumenical and understanding fellow, but that just strikes me as complete balderdash. Yah, yah, sure, it's occasionally nice to give a nod to history, and there are always a few aficionados. There are people who pay lots of money to watch Italian operas, too. I get that. But don't yeh want your faith to appeal to a broader audience than aficionados of Gregorian chant in a dead language? And why Latin, when Jesus spoke Aramaic, and da original scriptures were in Hebrew and Greek? If you're goin' for historical authenticity, it seems like those would be better choices. From da view of an outsider, this doesn't strike me as being about faith in God. The Christ reaches out to sinful man; Jesus always spoke the vernacular. This seems to be about faith in men, eh? Particularly faith in a few old aficionados of Latin opera. So how does a scout become deeper in his faith by mouthing "Agnus Dei qui tolis pecata mundi..." when the Bible he reads at home, and hears read at services, talks about the Lamb of God? Seems like da Master's admonishment about putting hurdles in the way of people applies. I even get your incense habit more than I get this dead language silliness. I do, however, wonder if some enterprising young person will leap up at services and shout "Expelliaramus!" at da fellow with the shepherd's crook. Now that would be a fun use of Latin. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Hiya Allure, welcome to the forums and to Scouting! In traditional Scouting from Baden-Powell (Scouting's founder) on down, the "top rank" was First Class Scout. First Class indicates that you have the skills and character to take care of yourself and others in the outdoors. It's a big deal. I'd make that your goal, and aim to really do it well, not skate by. You know that from your homeschooling experience, eh? The stuff that you really put time and energy into doing right is the best. Do First Class right. Learn it cold, so you can do it in the cold and snow! Then sit down and talk with your Scoutmaster about Venturing. Venturing is our older-youth program, and you can participate until you are 21. The Venturing Silver or Venturing Ranger or one of the other capstone Venturing awards might be the right long-term goal for you. Kinda da older youth version of Eagle. Beavah

Yah, but note da Atheist countries (China, North Korea, etc...) don't have scouting programs. Beavah

Yah, what VeniVidi said, eh? Different strokes for different folks, but it's best that a unit be up-front in its expectations and description of the way it looks at things. Personally, I see kids get plenty out of being "pushed", and I see kids get plenty out of scouting when it's not pushy. Loosely speakin', I think younger fellows need a push now and then, but teenagers mostly resent it and are apt to react poorly. Especially if it's a parent pushing, eh? I once sat and listened to an ASM give a "you should earn Eagle" speech to a Life Scout. Completely turned the kid off. He was easily Eagle material and da right sort of adult mentor would have gotten him to come 'round by not pushing, but the push just made the fellow decide it was a stupid adult thing. So if yeh ask me which I prefer... I'd say it's valuing da interest of the kids, whatever it happens to be. For the young fellows, if they like collecting tree frogs, support 'em collecting tree frogs. Oooh and ah over the big ones. Get 'em a field book to help 'em identify the species and learn a bit more. Let 'em play, and then support their play with meaning. Turning Eagle into an expectation or "work" or somethin' to "get through" is always a poor choice. Beavah

Yah, first off yeh probably don't need to,, and probably shouldn't, incorporate as a charitable organization. Under da law, you are probably considered an "unincorporated association" by your state, in all likelihood at least . The bank will ask for a tax ID or EIN. If yeh want to keep everything clean and neat, yeh can get one of these issued to the unincorporated association online at da IRS website, The bank may also request a copy of your association bylaws. Alternately, yeh can use your SSN and make sure yeh get a non-interest bearing account. A friendly banking officer at a local bank should be able to help yeh through things. Now, here's da thing.... Do yeh really want to stay an association of a few parents? There are all kinds of good reasons to seek out and team up with a "real" organization as a chartering partner. Stability for the pack when the original parents move on, last-ditch backup when a parent becomes disputatious and doesn't play nicely, building and other resources, exemption from state sales taxes, etc. Da parent associations really should have bylaws, and yeh have to decide things like if one family leaves, does it get to take its share of the property, or do the other families have to buy them out? Also, as an association, yeh don't have the same insulation from liability that a corporation has. Not a big deal, but perhaps a small deal...unless something really bad happens. Maybe now is da time to think about moving the charter over to a bigger partner? Your DE will have a list of candidates in da area. Beavah

Yah, wrong approach, ghermanno. If you're coming at this from a district angle, da question is not "what can we do to get you to participate in our district events?". It should be " what can our district do to help you with your unit program?" Go ask 'em that, or get to know 'em so that you can figure that out.

Yah, sounds fine, bacchus. This stuff happens all the time, eh? Often gets caught in situations like yours, when a lad transfers to a sharp records-keeping unit from one that was not very fastidious about record-keeping. Generally da easiest and fastest for the boy is to accept any legit documentation he has (blue cards, white cards, book signoffs, etc.) and then reconcile the council records from those by submitting advancement report forms yourself. Sometimes yeh can go back to the first troop, but honestly having danced that dance I don't think it's worth it. Like as not you get referred to the new AC, who doesn't know anything, who then points yeh to the former SM, who moved out of town, who refers yeh to the former CC, who doesn't remember but thinks da former AC might know. Of course, when yeh finally locate da former AC, yeh find he's pushing daisies. Beavah

Yah, old news. Relatively few of da 2010 books made it into circulation before they were pulled. Folks should ignore da 2010 version and continue to use 2009 as the current guidebook. B

Yah, no biggie, EventHorizon. Won't put yeh into a black hole at least, despite your moniker . Council should have your records. If yeh want you can drop by or give 'em a call and have 'em give you a printout from ScoutNet. Then if yeh discover anything missing, you should let your SM and troop Advancement Chair know so that they can go submit some paperwork. As yeh can see from da other responses, different councils handle things in different ways. Blue cards are an optional thing. Lots of camps and troops don't use 'em. Occasionally you'll see volunteers in a district or council get confused and start demanding 'em, typically only in da smaller councils. Goodness knows what they do for out-of-council badges and camps and such. Your troop adults can help yeh navigate that if need be, but I doubt it will be a problem for you. Beavah

Many of those that do not believe it is immoral go even further and believe that discrimination against people on the basis of sexual orientation is immoral. Yah, I may be wrong, but I don't think most people discriminate on orientation so much as on activity, eh? Some folks are sexually oriented toward children, or sheep, or multiple women. An orientation is what it is, eh? We really don't know where it comes from. Most of us are tempted to steal on occasion, or to drink too much, or whatever. Don't know where that comes from either. But acting on those temptations or orientations, or "avowing" that yeh are acting on them, lots of folks think that is a sort of moral flaw which shouldn't be an example for kids. In each case, yeh have a minority that thinks avowing/acting is OK and shouldn't be discriminated against. Same with many other activities between consenting folks, or individuals acting in private, or individuals who feel they should have control/power over others. What's da harm? What's da harm in consenting adults rushing a fraternity being hazed? Yah, sure, there's a chance of physical harm, but then there's a chance of physical harm or death from gay male anal sex, too. And it's a far bigger risk than from rushing a frat. So da only question, really, is not if we draw a line, eh? It's just where we draw the line. Which private acts should be criminalized? Which should not be criminalized but also not publicly endorsed? Which should be publicly recognized? In da BSA, and in da country, that gets decided by a majority of the voting "membership." The reasons why they vote as they do are often complicated and nuanced, and yeh can't reduce 'em to "oh, he thinks that way just because he's a Mormon" or "she thinks that way just because she's from New England." Beavah

If yeh do a search, you'll find several long threads on this topic, eh? That might help yeh. Doesn't hurt to have the conversation again, though, with new people. The background is that mixed-age patrols were the norm until 1990, when the BSA made a program change to "new scout patrol(s)" for first year boys, which focused on workin' the trail to First Class in a year. Sentiment at the time was that it would help with first year scout retention if things were a bit more like cubs/webelos - yeh come in with your "den" and work on a 1-year focused program which gets yeh a couple of fast awards, but under the direction of a youth Troop Guide (assisted by an ASM) rather than under the direction of an adult Den Leader (assisted by a Den Chief). Some units switched to the new system, others didn't. Some tried it and switched back. Most of da troops started after 1990 use this system. At the same time, with the introduction of da Venture Patrol (nee Crew) in the troop, the BSA encouraged same-age boys in older scout patrols, eh? So most troops doing the post-1990 thing have horizontal or "same age" patrols, though a few opted to use new scout patrols but kept vertical mixed-age regular patrols (new scouts move into an existing patrol after some period of time or after they make First Class). With horizontal same-age patrols, patrol competition fell by the wayside both at the troop and camporee level (hard for 11 year olds to compete with older boy patrols in most things), as did da notion of a "permanent" patrol (usually yeh see troops needing to "consolidate" patrols as boys get older and some boys leave). The patrol became a less tight working community and more of an administrative entity. I reckon we can safely say at this point that da notion that the 1990 change would improve first year retention didn't pan out. It stayed about the same, might have decreased a bit. First year retention I reckon depends more on things like making connections/friends by going to summer camp, etc. Arguably, another effect of the change was to cause troops to lose more "middle" and older boys. Leastways yeh seem to see more almost-all-middle-school troops these days. In my opinion, da FCFY (first class first year) component sorta "cubified" Boy Scouting advancement, and resulted in a lot of units watering down expectations for First Class Scouts as well. I think it also increased the hazing/bullying a bit, just because da notion of older boys being responsible for younger lads went away. I'm sure others would disagree, though. Still, yeh can find some very successful large troops that run with horizontal patrols, eh? A bit too adult-run for my taste in most cases, but it's not a bad way to go. Lots of happy kids, some merit to keeping den-mate friends together, active parents involved in da first year program, that sort of thing. BSA still encourages new scout patrols/horizontal patrols, but allows the mixed-age patrols. If yeh follow the changes in the books, I think yeh see that they're less gung ho about same-age patrols than they used to be, and more open to variation. So nothing wrong with what your son's troop is doin', it can be a fine way to go. Just goin' to be different than what you remember. Beavah

Yah, generally speaking da service organizations are good partners, and usually fairly "hands off" in terms of day to day program administration. I'll echo what others have said, though, that a Chartering Partner who is a good partner you will find is a substantial improvement, not liability, over a disengaged PTA. Beavah

Yah, to respond to OGE's post, I think the "moron" comment and similar are where the line gets crossed, eh? Asking a question, even repeatedly, doesn't bother me. You and I have done a few rounds like that, eh? Sometimes it's just because people's language and points of view are so different. In da other thread, I "got" what vol_scouter was sayin' right away, but it took a page and a half of Merlyn asking the same question before he discovered he didn't disagree with vol. The personal "moron" stuff should be moderated. B

OK, I'll bite. What WOULD be a good reason to censure a group in a secular democracy? Yah, I reckon if their behavior is disruptive of the social fabric of the society, including social mores which are important to da society's health and cohesiveness. I like Eagledad's "would you encourage it in your children?" test. Yeh might consider polygamy a private, personal marriage choice. Same with incest. Nonetheless, our society censures those things, both with social pressure and law, eh? We feel, rightly or wrongly, that polygamy is oppressive of women, even if they freely choose to engage in it. We censure female circumcision for similar reasons, even though da practice is socially important or accepted in other cultures, and among immigrants from those cultures. Same with arranged marriages. We censure child pornography, and restrict access to other pornography, even though those are personal, private choices of viewing material. We censure drug abuse, and have intervened against cults, even when drug abusers and cults seem to be mostly minding their own business. We censure fraternities and sororities for hazing, even though it's done by and with consenting adults in private. All kinds of things, eh? And many where any direct harm to society is unclear. Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... 1) They tend not to participate at Camporees very much. Same could be said of many very active and successful troops, eh? Camporees are a service that da district or council provides to help troops whose internal programming needs that support. They aren't a requirement or even an expectation. 2) They have a whole week of summer camp reserved just for them. What's wrong with that? We do week-long Catholic and Methodist scouter conferences at Philmont and other places, and plenty of our camps rent out to outsiders for da week too. If a group is willing to book out da whole camp for a week, that's a good thing. We have too many camps that are under-subscribed, and we're losing 'em as a result. As to higher standard, well, no coffee... That's a sacrifice us lower life forms aren't willing to make even for salvation. 3) Quite a few LDS Scouters seem to come across with the view that somehow the rest of us aren't doing Scouting right. Yah, a lot of us non-LDS folks here too, eh? I've yet to meet a scouter who isn't proud of his or her program, and that often comes across as arrogant. Most times yeh get together with new people yeh have to go through a long period where they talk about their units before yeh ever get around to having a conversation . Folks are right, I don't think LDS in particular wags the dog, eh? They just act like a big customer, and like any big customer they get some extra attention. Doesn't bother me much. Venturing was created because we had a lot of high adventure Explorer posts that didn't seem to fit with LFL when it got spun off, so we created new program for those customers. That's our business, eh? Creating program materials to help chartered partners do what they do, whether LDS or da churches that want to use Trust for their co-ed high school programs or whatnot. But on da leadership issue, they are just a fraction of da many voices siding with the current BSA policy. Hard as it may be to believe, the rest of the country doesn't have da same view as the coast-huggers, and even on the coasts Scouting tends toward the more traditional values set than da average. It's fine to disagree with da national policy. But let's not single out or mischaracterize our fellow scouters from one church for what really is a much broader view. Da LDS folks I've known, scouters and non-scouters alike, have all been good people. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)