Beavah

Local option was what Dale upheld, Gern. Da BSA has the option to set its criteria for leadership positions within its own organization. Other organizations may set different criteria. Reversing Dale in da courts means no local option for any private organization. Don't mix up advocating for the BSA to voluntarily switch to local option and advocating for reversal of Dale. They are two very different things with very different consequences, eh? Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Hello sasha, Your local council office should have several guides available on Scouting with Disabilities, as well as names of troops that might have the resources to do a good job with assisting youth with a particular disability. Sometimes there are troops that "specialize" in scouts with disabilities; sometimes troops just have a lot of resources or experienced volunteers that are good at providing appropriate accommodations. Aside from BSA camps, which will have some policies in place, the BSA does not dictate policies to the individual troops. Each troop's volunteers make decisions on what they feel comfortable being responsible for and accommodating within their program, with guidance from their Chartered Organization's policies. Can you share what the particular question or sort of issue is that you are dealin' with? I expect a lot of folks on da forums can offer suggestions. Beavah

Engineer61 wrote: Oddly, and maybe this should be another thread... why is homosexuality an issue in BSA anymore anyway? 1) We know from the Oregon case that BSA has pedophiles in the adult ranks. As far as I know, none of the perps were homosexual, making them bisexual. 2) BSA has instituted YPT to circumvent the issues 1. 3) Therefore a homosexual participant should not be an issue. --- In response: 1) Almost all of the perpetrators have been homosexual. Very few (none of da public cases) were in heterosexual relationships of any kind. Folks lobbying for a position will argue that they were ephebophile homosexuals or pedophile homosexuals which is "different." 2) BSA YPT does not prevent abuse by scouters. It is most effective as a defense against (false) accusations or as a way of avoidin' legal liability by showing due diligence, and might sorta help prevent initial abuse at BSA events. Almost all initial scouter abuse of boys happens outside of Scouting events, tradin' on the Scouting relationship to lower the barriers. That was da case in Oregon and elsewhere. Only rarely does the abuse progress to occurring on actual scouting activities. 3) Therefore homosexuality remains an issue for many parents, regardless of whether or not it really is a factor in abuse. It is perceived to be. But da bigger point for many parents and organizations is the point about being an appropriate role model and adult mentor. That persists regardless of whether or not there is abuse risk. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

It would be a devastating loss of freedom for the nation. If a group cannot select its own leadership, that's a real assault on liberty. Precedents go far beyond what da individual issue is. Yeh have to be careful in advocating for a particular outcome (allowing local option for BSA leaders) not to do far worse damage to the nation. You would see evangelical Christian groups in organized ways try to take over da leadership of gay groups who could no longer exclude them based on sexual orientation. Yeh would see local governments try to use non-discrimination ordinances to disable minority groups with which they disagreed. The proper way to advocate for the BSA to change its policy is to lobby the BSA to change its policy. What's truly unAmerican is to try to use the government and the courts to force fellow citizens and citizen organizations to change their mind. It is a form of violence. And violence to liberty in that way only begets more of the same. What's more, there's nothing to insure that a ruling won't be overbroad or muddled enough to effectively limit or prevent "local option," at least not without many years of expensive litigation. There's no reason at all to believe things will simply and smoothly revert to local option. So da result will be the same as what's happening in the Episcopal Church, eh? You'll get a fracture, real or practical, and the BSA will be split in two or more parts. No CO is goin' to bother with expensive litigation to ensure it's local option, they'll just drop units. Even if it's local option and a full organizational rupture doesn't occur, you'll see things like rival camporees in many areas. What's left of the current organization will be much smaller and geographically based. On da bright side, you'll probably see a repeal of da BSA's U.S. monopoly rights on "Scouting" Beavah

The rights of the minority should never be decided by the majority. Yah, huh? In a democracy, da rights of everyone, majority or minority, are decided by the majority. It was in fact a super-majority that gave yeh the constitutional amendments prohibiting slavery and allowing women the right to vote, the majority that passed da Civil Rights Act, etc. It's always temptin' to feel that some more noble, more intelligent King or Theocrat or oligarchy should pass laws contrary to da will of the majority. It always ends badly. If your position really has merit, yeh should be able to convince the majority. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, FScouter... But if it's such a poor practice, why do we allow and even encourage it for Eagle Boards of Review? It doesn't seem like it's really all that bad, eh? Some CO's restrict committee membership to their own faith leadership; others don't like large, unwieldy committees. They aren't interested in "growing their committee". Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

It's part of growin' up, sailingpj. Your parents will always treat yeh like you are 12 until you go off to college. Then they will treat yeh like you're 14. Maybe, when you graduate and get a job they'll treat yeh like you're 16. If you're lucky. That might wait until you're married. Da only thing that can eventually save you is having kids. Not because they'll treat you like an adult, but because they'll be so distracted by the grandkids that they won't really pay attention to yeh anymore! Just da cycle of life. Don't let it bother yeh. Beavah

Yah, both food allergies (especially peanuts) and Autism are epidemic now compared to when we were young fellows, Mr. Boyce. Nobody knows why. There are some things where keepin' medical stuff confidential is necessary or appropriate. This isn't one of 'em. I'd say if the parents insist on it being confidential, you tell 'em that you can't accept the boy as a member. The PL and patrol members need to know. If the boys know, then they'll be more careful about the peanut stuff they bring, about offering the lad food, about planning meals, about GORP, on and on. And they'll be able to recognize a problem and get help or assist more quickly. Beavah

Yah, OK, you convinced me, Q. Beat EDGE to death with scout staves. The point of Scouting is doing things for fun. The learnin' comes with that. B

I'm sayin' that sort of bureaucratic technicality does not fall into a category where I should spend my time and energy judging other good scouters as being "wrong" or out to "do whatever they want." Like the BSA, I trust fellow scouters to make reasonable, prudent choices for serving kids in their units, and I support them even if they're not da same choice I would make in my units. If an LDS unit with a 3-member church committee and 80 scouts wants to use community members and unregistered parents on BORs so that the boys can get a timely BOR rather than waiting for 3 guys to schedule 'em, the BSA is not going to object. So I see no point in any ordinary scouter gettin' on a high horse. What would I recommend? In most cases I'd recommend da same thing as FScouter. Use MC's who are well trained, good at talkin' to kids, who know the program and the CO. And put a youth or a visiting SM from another troop on if yeh feel it's appropriate in addition to the MCs. They don't have to take my recommendation, though. And to be honest, only about 1 troop in 5 meets that standard, eh? For all da rest, yeh modify as you need to in order to do the best yeh can with what they've got. Beavah

Yep, no risk. But if yeh can figure out how National is supposed to check signatures that were never collected on forms that were never sent to National against personnel records that are years old in archives that are not maintained when doing that is in no one's job description, I'm all ears. They can't even keep da training records accurate on people that took training this year. And have yeh ever looked at da old forms before electronic filing? If I could read one signature out of three it would be a lot in many cases. Seriously, though, even if the data were available, who would do that? Who anywhere, at Irving or elsewhere, would hold up a scout on that kind of adult technicality? "We couldn't read the signature on da form that was filed 6 years ago, so we're not going to authorize Eagle Scout because you may not have earned Tenderfoot." Certainly not the national office. For all their foibles, they've never, ever taken that approach. And if some cockamamie council did they'd award Eagle on appeal before yeh can say Green Bar Bill. No risk. Beavah

Yah, it takes an adult to teach EDGE. No youth would ever think of things that way . Beavah

This should be moved to issues and politics. I wish da fellow the best, he's free to spend his money as he sees fit, but the law on this is pretty well settled. B

How are district and council folks goin' to look at signatures that aren't required by the electronic system? There is no risk. Nobody at any level is ever goin' to hold up a boy on such a thing. Certainly not Irving; they award Eagle based on whether or not a lad was registered and breathing, remember? But let's pretend for some odd reason yeh get some district git with way too much time on his hands and they still aren't takin' electronic filing, the unit simply files an amended report form. Presto, no problem. Or yeh file an appeal and let National tell 'em to get a grip. Honestly, I've never seen such a thing anywhere, ever. Da notion that "National is watching!" the Eagle Scout applications is just urban legend. How many Eagle apps do they get a year? The limited staff they have are workin' full time just to get da certificates out. And no, National does not look at rank dates either. That review is done by your local council registrar. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Aw, shucks, I sorta liked Show-Help-Inspire-Test, CRAPPPO, and LATRINE. Speakin' of OB-GYN, though, how many folks teach that sort of stuff as part of their first aid training for youth? IIRC, it's not part of the First Aid MB requirements, but it is standard fare for every Wilderness First Aid and other Wilderness responder courses. Anybody have issues with parents if yeh included those topics? Issues keepin' the lads serious? Beavah

Yah, I remember a troop at one point that started that sort of thing, where the committee met without the SM. The SM in turn just ignored the committee and kept runnin' the program without them. Asked individual parents to do tasks, etc. After a few months fewer and fewer people showed up at the "official" committee meeting and instead showed up at whatever meeting the SM called. Tended to get the supportive parents and helpful types. Da others I'm sure kept talking on their own but not accomplishing much. Eventually da supportive parents and helpful types became the official committee. Troop really started to thrive after that. Beavah

Complete fiction and urban legend, acco. Go talk to your registrar. National only gets a copy of da Eagle Scout Application, none of the other stuff. And da registrar's signature on the form certifies that all the prior advancement records are in ScoutNet. Nobody anywhere looks at signatures to try to match to positions. Typically an Advancement Report Form comes in with a half dozen advancements on it, eh? They weren't all done by the same BOR, but there are only three signatures. Da modern electronic advancement submission doesn't even ask for those signatures. Beavah

Great attitude yeh have in da troop there. Question: Who is scheduling these gear-maintenance events? The Quartermaster? The PLC? Usually peer pressure handles most of this behavior, eh? But if it's you or the adults scheduling, then yeh don't have that leverage. Yeh want to get most of da people on board, and then deal with your problem-cases. Some troops make the lads sign out and check in their gear from da trailer. Handled by the QM. If tent comes back missing pieces or in bad shape, those that checked it out get billed for da maintenance or they don't get a tent next time. Personally, doin' it by patrol always seems to work a bit better to me, but just depends on your setup. I expect if your PLC got together to discuss what was fair, they'd come up with some version of "if yeh don't help with gear maintenance, then you don't get to use the gear." Beavah

Prior to the dreaded EDGE requirements, we didn't teach them how to teach. Now we do. Surely yeh jest. qwaze is right, eh? Show and tell usually makes more sense. Let's see, that would be DEGE. Lots of folks do S-H-I-T. Show, Help, Inspire/Encourage, Test. Repeatedly. I like CRAPPPO. CReate goals. design Assessment - decide how you will tell when the goal has been met. Plan your instruction - da lads always seem to skimp on the planning. Present the instruction Practice the skills Observe their skills to see if they've met the goals. That's what all good teachers have been doing for hundreds of years! CRAPPPO is the best! If you're having trouble with planning da instruction, remember LATRINE. Level of the learners. Yeh have to start by thinking what will work for da age group and their experience. Acceptable Behavior. How will yeh handle interruptions and off-task behavior? Timing. How much time will it take for an average lad to pick up enough to get started on da skill? How much time before they're bored? Review. How much practice and review will they need to "get it"? Inspire. What can you do to inspire 'em to work hard on this and have fun with it? Number of people. Yeh need to adapt your lesson to da number of people you have. Environment. Where are yeh teaching, and what can you use from that environment that will help? What will be distractions? Yeh can make these things up all day long. Kinda fun, but has nuthin' to do with teaching. What's hard is actually learning what good Guiding looks like, since it's different for each kid and each instructor. Many adults don't do a great job. Harder still to figure out what good Enabling looks like. What's a good "first solo" for a particular group? A good second one? Depends on the group, and the environment, and how hard da task is, and what the goals are. CReating appropriate goals or designing good Assessment is hard. Remembering CRAPPPO doesn't really help yeh figure out how to do those things. Me personally, I would almost never teach a knot by doing Explain-Demonstrate-Guide-Enable. Never. I'd toss kids some cord and say "let's figure out how we can tie this to the dining fly grommet." It'd be more like playing with rope than anything. Or maybe, if it was somethin' like teaching a fellow a particular knot for a particular purpose, I'd start with Guiding. Or with Reading, like qwaze says. Then it would circle. It'd be like Try - Assess - Discuss - Try Again - Discuss - Guide - Try Again - Assess - Demonstrate - Try Again - Assess - Try Again - Assess - Coach - Try Again - Good - Give harder challenge - Try - etc. Real teachin' isn't linear da way EDGE implies. And EDGE misses all da stuff like reading and goals and assessing and adapting to the learner and da environment. It's no better than S-H-I-T and worse than CRAPPPO I thought I was a #2, eh? Now I'm thinkin' I'm more like a 1.5 Beavah

All kinds of past threads on scout accounts. Just go to the Unit Fundraising forum and set things for view all instead of view past 90 days and you'll see a bunch. Or search that forum for a title that contains 'account'. Of course, there's nothing that says we can't have one more, eh? Why not post your question and let folks respond? Beavah

Technically, that would be a parent attempting to influence a teacher or a school. It's not the same thing (and I suspect you know that). Oh, I reckon its similar enough to da case of a merit badge, which is what we were talking about. It works a lot better than the 'sink or swim' approach you're advocating. What are yeh talking about? I wasn't mentioning anything about water sports. Or advocating sinking or swimming. I do advocate reading. Especially mysteries. Beavah

I was under the impression that parents had the ultimate authority and responsibility for their children. I must have been mistaken. Sure they (we) do. Just try exercisin' your ultimate authority on a teenage daughter and see what kinda grief it gets you. So even though as a parent yeh think yeh have "ultimate authority" for your child, good luck at tryin' to get the school to change that "C" in Chemistry to an "A" for your child. And don't expect that da BSA is going to accept "I don't believe in having my son do any chores" as meetin' the requirements for giving out the BSA merit badge. Other people are so annoying. They claim they have "ultimate authority" for themselves and their charges, too. Beavah

Yah, I don't get this 2.5 stuff The difference in my mind between 2 and 3 is whether or not the teachin' method should be written into the requirements. Yeh can think EDGE is a fine teaching method to train your junior leaders in, but still not feel they be limited to that. I'm just fine with NJ's notion of adding a teaching requirement. Those are common for Venturing recognitions, eh? Seems like adding 'em to the upper ranks for Boy Scouting is a fine thing. I wouldn't specify EDGE, I'd specify success. Teach so that the fellow you're teaching actually learns, whatever method you use. I'm not sure I'd put a teaching requirement in Tenderfoot, though. That's too early, kids are still getting their feet under 'em . And I think yeh need to open it up to "teach a basic skill specified by your SM" rather than limiting it to the reef knot. Back to EDGE, as I've mentioned, I think it's just made up nonsense. Real teachin' focuses on the student's needs, not on da teacher's presentation. EDGE has the wrong focus, and has no steps for assessing how the guy you're teaching is doing or other type of feedback and change of style. It only "works" in people's minds because each person forces EDGE to fit their own notion of what they think it means. Like the parent in da other thread who felt EDGE as a MBC means Explaining to him he has to do chores, Demonstrating responsibility by staying on his case, Guiding by nagging him daily, and Enabling him to get da MB . It sounds nice, but it's really not that helpful for beginners. And I've seen way too much explaining from most EDGE trained fellows. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, sorry JMBadger, I'm with moosetracker. He's not addin' to the requirements, you're subtracting from them. That's what happens in Badge Mills. Your lad is only 11, eh? Just recently crossed into Boy Scouts. Boy Scouts is a different program than Cubs. I'd recommend yeh take a step back, give him a year to develop on his own working with da other adults in the troop, and use that year to get trained in Boy Scouting and adjust your thinkin' to the new way of doing things. Both you and your son will benefit, eh? You'll both get a lot more out of da program. Here's sorta my thinking: Now my 11-year-old is working on Family Life, 90 days of chores and keeping track of them. He has to be reminded almost every day to do the chores and to record them. Does it mean he hasn't earned the badge because I practically dragged him along to get it done? No, he did the work (grudgingly) so he earns the badge. Will he continue to do those chores after the badge is earned? Unlikely. The point of any Boy Scout badge is to learn the stuff, develop the habits, build character and citizenship. In the words of the manuals, A Boy Scout Badge is a recognition for what a boy is ABLE TO DO, not a reward for what he has done under protest. I think yeh blew it on the Family Life badge by dragging your son along to complete the tasks. That wasn't the point. Your son should have done the work on his own, developing the character to continue to contribute to his family on his own after the badge was complete. A lad who has their parent drag them around doing their "position of responsibility" for them or their Eagle project for them or setting up their tent for them is also subtracting from da requirements. That's an Eagle Mill, if the troop allows it to happen. That's why many troops won't have a parent counsel badges for their own son unless there are no other counselors available. When I taught Bears and Webelos to tie their knots, we went over them again and again. When they could tie the knots 3 times without any assistance or "hints" I signed them off. They earned my signature that day. Yah, OK for Cub Scouts, but not OK for Boy Scouts. In Boy Scouts we EDGE, eh? That means after yeh explain and demonstrate, the boy has to have a lot of opportunity for you to Guide and then to be Enabled to do it on his own, in the field. Tying loads onto the tops of cars, settin' up his patrol dining fly, lashing gadgets, etc. Only when he's "got it down" after a lot of practice is he then tested, and by that point he isn't goin' to forget it the next week. In fact the "test" may be "go set up the dining fly usin' the right knots". And the 90 days do not have to be consecutive, so if you made your son start over you were adding requirements that aren't there. Yah, that kind of sea lawyer interpretation is just fine if you're an attorney tryin' to manipulate things to get your client off on a technicality, but it has no business in raising kids unless yeh want them to someday need a lawyer to get 'em off on a technicality. We want kids to learn character, not how to manipulate the system. So da requirements must always be read in that light. How does working on this badge or award help the lad learn character and citizenship? Or, in da words of the BSA's Rules, administration of advancement must harmonize with the aims and purposes of the organization. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Seems like the EDGE discussion is a bit like a virus, eh? It infects multiple threads. So here's an effort to quarantine it. Da individuals involved can speak for themselves and their own case, but it seems like there are 3 camps: 1) EDGE is just another example of "management-style" scouting that shows how far we've lost our way, and should be beaten to death with scout staves. 2) EDGE is an OK memory device but really is not da way we'd expect everyone to teach all the time, so it's fine for training but it shouldn't be written into da requirements. 3) EDGE is what scouting has always done and the "right" way, so those Tenderfeet should start learning it right away! It belongs in da requirements. Have at it!