Beavah

Yah, if yeh have ever been in some of da popular summer hikin' areas and such yeh realize how much everyone with neon tents (more than clothing) and such disrupts da enjoyment of other visitors. Especially the photography. Clothin' choices also can be a reflection of our own personal attitudes, eh? That's why we use uniforms in Scouting, after all. Neon clothes say "Look at me!". Neutral colors say "Don't mind me, look at the world around you." If the lads are wearin' neutral colors you can even sometimes encourage 'em to stop well off trail and quietly out of view instead of droppin' packs in the middle of the trail. So put me down for quality first, and reasonable price. After that, I choose neutral colors that blend in. Bein' courteous to other visitors is hard enough with a big group of kids without addin' in a neon "I'll do what I want" attitude. Beavah

Yah, always. It's always a symptom, eh? It just might not be da diagnosis. I reckon a kid being "just off the rails" also isn't much of a diagnosis, eh? More like da sort of story we make up in our heads to justify a response to a lad that's more based on our emotion than our thoughtful better nature. For me, there are really only two times to remove a lad. One is when the troop lacks the capacity to deal with his issues. This varies by troop, and it varies within a troop over time dependin' on the strength of the youth leaders and the adult leaders. I personally like da rascals, eh? Others, like this OP, perhaps not so much. The second is when it's necessary pour encourager les autres. Sometimes, especially in turn-around situations, yeh have to leave one body on da floor to let the rest of the lads know you're serious, and to let the good kids know you've got their backs. Both should be rare, eh? The first because yeh should be havin' those conversations up front; the second because when things are runnin' well and youth leaders are doin' their job and adults have deeper relationships with kids yeh can steer by makin' small corrections. Yeh don't need nuclear options. Anyways, that's another reason why just goin' in and demandin' to see some punishment or to see one lad removed isn't good for a troop, eh? Such things only work if they're done well and as part of a bigger picture. Adults just punishin' kids sets up adult vs. kid dynamics that aren't healthy. Just like Hogwarts, eh? Beavah

Yah, hmmmm.... So a group of newbies is goin' to go to the fellow who has been runnin' things for years and demand changes after goin' on one trip, eh? Like da custodian at Hogwarts they want to see some punishment!!! How do yeh really think that's goin' to go? In many troops it's goin' to get a CC or SM sittin' with da group, listenin' and noddin' sagely, thankin' 'em for their input and then havin' the "this is not Cub Scouts and you are not in charge" conversation. Comin' in and demandin' to see some punishment of other people's kids isn't a great way to start life in a new program. Not even punishment, eh? Yeh want to see someone else's kid kicked out! Helicopter parents can be really destructive to good Boy Scoutin'. Besides, you don't know these boys yet, eh? What experience yeh have with troublemaker #1 is from years ago. That's what's known as "prejudice", eh? Kids change with time, often lots. I know this is hard, eh? Yeh apparently have a tight-knit bunch of kids and former Cub Scout parents who all joined this troop together as a fully intact clique. Yah, yah, all those new crossovers are great kids, eh? They would never use bad language when you weren't around. And you'd know, because you are around on everything the lads do, right? In Boy Scoutin', we take kids of all ages and backgrounds from all sorts of families, eh? Some whose families use more colorful language, some who might be from broken homes where the lads are still learnin' better behavior. Scoutin' isn't a gated community, and we really don't do punishment. I return to my original diagnosis. Yeh need to sit back and stop rabble rousin'. No comments until yeh really become a member of the troop and not just your den, eh? Get to know all of the good things about the troop, and the older boys, and the Scoutmaster, and da other adult leaders and parents. Settle in, and give yourself time to get comfortable with da chaos of youth leadership that yeh never had with dads runnin' the show in Cub Scouts. Just like workin' with kids, yeh have to spend at least 4 times discoverin' and praising the good things they do before you'll ever be successful in pointin' out one thing that they might improve on. Other parents will listen to yeh more after you have built up some social capital, just da way kids will. Then, down the road a ways, if your son feels there are issues go talk to the SM. But if yeh take anyone with you, at least half of 'em have to be parents of older boys who weren't part of your den/pack. Beavah

Scouters who have been through trainin' for kids with special needs will also recognize this to be a symptom of kids with certain learning disabilities, eh?

Yah, I'm findin' it really disappointin' that da new Forum software doesn't have a spin-off function eh? This topic came from Patrol leader election question. These days we all know that check writin' is bein' replaced by electronic transfers, eh? Heck, da banks don't even want yeh to deposit your checks anymore, yeh just take a picture of 'em with your phone. This is da world our boys are goin' to live in, though, and I reckon it makes for some new possibilities especially for teachin' Personal Management and for handlin' troop operations on da youth level. I'm wonderin' if anybody has done anything interesting along these lines, or just has some ideas they can brainstorm for folks to try out. Things like... Havin' PM MB kids all open bank accounts and get debit or credit cards. Usin' kids' accounts to pay dues or outing fees through electronic funds transfer to get parents payin' out of da loop and teach financial responsibility? Givin' da SPL/ASPL/PL debit card or checking access to a troop or patrol account to make payments for trip expenses themselves. Yeh could imagine somethin' like da treasurer transfers and amount equal to the PLC's 6-month budget into an account for them to use and manage themselves... Takin' payments through Square or some other payment processor. Runnin' all da troop expenses on an REI Card to use da dividend to buy new gear every year . Other great ideas? Other troop experiences? Pitfalls? Beavah

Yah, as you say, da over-regulatory CARD Act made it more difficult for minors, eh? Because it's always better for parents to do for young people what they are capable of doin' for themselves. As @@Stosh says, because of da CARD Act it's now easier to just use other card types, like debit cards or prepaid cards. As far as I know, just about every bank/card company offers linked debit card and checking accounts for minors. One of da legal absurdities is that although a scout of age 12 can have a bank account and debit card, he can't use online banking or change his personal information online until he's 13 because of da COPPA Act... even though da personal information on a bank account is private/confidential. Yeh gotta love Congress. Still, kids can also get credit cards so long as their parent co-signs. That's co-signs da application, eh? Not co-signs every transaction. Not so big a deal. Minors can also get cards if they can show an independent source of income that matches the credit limit. So a minor with a good job or a trust fund just has extra hoops to jump, but doesn't necessarily need a co-signer on da application. Beavah Spun thread: Modern Banking and Teaching Kids to Fish

Yah, well, in that case I reckon it's an injustice to take a course of action that leads for worse outcomes for everybody, eh? It's certainly a sadness, eh? I don't think we can justify actual harm by arguin' that the rules made us do it or by pretendin' Justice is on our side. JMHO.

Yah, interestin' @@Cambridgeskip. I wasn't aware that da stage awards got computed that way over on your foggy isle. I think I'd tend to agree with you, eh? That seems like a bug rather than a feature. What I'd say is this... I'd expect your new scouts to earn Chief Scout Gold by meetin' da same basic expectations for skills as their peers. Anything else seems destructive of group dynamic and da quality of your program. So yah, absolutely, a new 12-year-old should learn First Aid skills appropriate for a 12-year-old, eh? Not a beaver. The one area I'd make an exception is if somethin' was structured in such a way as to be an unreasonable hurdle. Camping nights might be an example. It's probably not reasonable for a new scout to have to "make up" 5 years of camping activity that his or her peers had as beavers and cubs, eh? At the same time, makin' up some of that seems OK and will help them feel like "real" scouts rather than "baby" scouts to their fellows. So perhaps a two-for-one system of some sort? Yeh have to meet da age-appropriate requirements, but yeh get credit for 2 campout nights for every 1 you do until you catch up? You could justify it in terms of more recent experience bein' twice as valuable as experience from 5 years ago as a beaver. In da U.S. at the Scouts level it's supposed to be skills-based, eh? Our campout requirements are trivial, what should matter is that the scouts have the specific camping skills to be able to camp well in all da local weather. Sometimes lads who have done a lot of family camping can get through those fairly quickly, but mostly it takes quite a few campouts for ordinary kids to build those skills, eh? Way more than our minimal required nights of camping. Yeh could try to do somethin' like that which is more demonstrated-skills based. Thanks for sharin'! Beavah

Yah, this is unrelated, eh? I'd encourage yeh not to do this. Boy Scoutin' is not Cub Scoutin', and your son won't truly be a Boy Scout if yeh behave the same way yeh did when he was a little tike. Take a look at the campout calendar right now and pick half of the campouts that you will not go on. Your son will need some space to make Boy Scouting his activity. After he finds his feet and the troop becomes truly his as a Boy Scout, then you're in a position to come on more trips as a supportive adult who keeps to the adult patrol and eventually serves as an ASM. Both you and he will get more out of Boy Scoutin' that way. Second suggestion I have is that five years is forever in the life of a boy. Try not to let your experiences from when this boy was once a Cub Scout color your view of him or his family today. Boys change, eh? Often quickly. Just speak to da issues right now. In terms of havin' a feel for what's "acceptable", I reckon most scouters with a sense of vision and mission have relatively quick but gentle triggers, eh? As @@KenD500 says, there aren't too many of us who allow any sort of physical confrontations or name-calling. Cursing also gets addressed fairly quickly, though I reckon there's always some youth who are tryin' out adult language from time to time as they grow up. By gentle triggers I mean that they prefer redirectin' energy and usin' youth leaders to respond and settin' things up to help the boys learn, rather than waitin' for bigger incidents and reading 'em riot acts. I'm also personally not a fan of riot acts, eh? Everybody has their own style, but in respondin' to individual boy behaviors I think quiet with firm consequences is more likely to win the day. Since the lads seemed to care enough about da riot act to be upset and respond with tears, I think for you right now the proper choice is to step back a bit and keep watchin'. One of da things that's true about human nature is that when we come into new environments the first thing we notice are things that are "wrong" or different from what we're used to. It takes us much longer to learn and discover how things are "right" and perhaps better than what we're used to. So I always tell folks who are new to any community that they should wait a year or so to truly figure things out before they start tryin' to fix things or pull out the "we did it differently in my old pack/troop". Welcome to Boy Scoutin'. Youth leadership and patrols and all the rest are messy and chaotic to adult eyes. In the end, I think you'll find da outcomes are almost always better. Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... OK, if yeh think yeh have this figured out and da problem has been isolated to Mr. Naysayer Gunship, then yeh proceed on that basis, eh? First option is to do as @@qwazse suggests, eh? Give up on da whole digging-dirt dramafest. Don't argue, don't fight, don't call him names, and don't yield. Just keep on keepin' on, buildin' relationships and movin' the troop along and more or less isolating the fellow until he gets the hint. This requires time on your and other people's parts, eh? Yeh have to be puttin' in (lots) more time than he is. Second option is get together with da CC, COR and other active ASMs. Lay out your concerns along with a recommendation. I'd say yeh have two concerns. One is that the troop really needs an active Scoutmaster. Yeh can coast for a while with an absentee Scoutmaster, but as new people come into the program the culture will start to change and da momentum will start to fade. Sounds like you're there. The second concern is that yeh have an ASM who really doesn't work well with youth who needs to be asked to step aside. There are three options in terms of havin' a fellow step aside. One is to promote the fellow up and out of the way. Have da UC find some district position for him helpin' organize gear for camporees or somethin' that matches his Gunship talents. Another is havin' the new Scoutmaster effectively bench him by givin' him non-youth-contact tasks. He'll either find one he's good at and settle down, or he'll quit on his own. Last option is havin' whoever is best at this thing in your CO to ease him out gently but firmly. That could be da CC, or COR, or IH, or somebody else, eh? For the sake of Scoutin' and all the boys, don't go into another cycle of folding troops. From what you say, you've already done the experiment, eh? The area can't support more than one troop. One last option if none of da rest are viable. I've managed this successfully for a troop only once, eh? I don't know what your patrol structure is like, but yeh can sometimes set things up so a fellow like this is ASM of one patrol. Then yeh have other leaders who are better at da whole youth-run thing as ASMs of other patrols. It doesn't take long for the differences in attendance, skill level, and patrol spirit to show up, and for kids in the fellow's patrol to transfer out to other patrols. It can be a great illustration to everybody of the value of da respective approaches. At the point when there aren't any lads left in his patrol, yeh don't give him another one or any other roles. Usually this is a stark enough illustration that the fellow fades out. It's high risk for the boys in that patrol, though. Yeh have to be clear with all the boys that it's OK to change patrols whenever they want. Beavah

Yah, GrubDad, welcome to da forums, eh? You haven't made clear what your role is in da troop. Are you "just a dad"? An ASM? A Committee Member? What yeh choose depends on what you're role is. First thing to get past is da notion that some sort of "policy and procedure" can address youth behavioral issues. That's not the way kids' brains work, and it's da wrong approach to teachin' character and citizenship. We don't behave well because there's a policy, we behave well because we choose to. I'd say if this was your first camporee that you should give it another few tries before yeh get too concerned. As you mention, the regular PLs were absent this weekend, there were likely Mothers' Day conflicts and such. Generally speakin', this sort of thing is the Scoutmaster's purview, so if yeh decide you do have a concern that merits a quiet conversation, yeh do that with the Scoutmaster. Then yeh give the Scoutmaster time to work on it. Most of the time, the Scoutmaster is well aware, eh? Odds are he knows more about the lad(s) and da circumstances than you do. Odds are he's already workin' with the boy(s) and the family(s). Changin' behaviors takes time, especially if da family situation for a lad isn't the best, which is often the case. Yeh should try to trust the man in the Scoutmaster seat to do his best. Dealin' with teenage youth and their behaviors is not a forte of most adults, eh? So sometimes adults who are conflict adverse sort of let things go. If the Scoutmaster is like that, then others tend to follow suit and yeh get a kind of unresponsive bystander effect. Everybody looks to everybody else to do somethin', and nobody takes responsibility. That's often when people want a "policy", because a policy is a way of avoidin' personal responsibility and personal interaction with a more challenging youth. Two suggestions if yeh find yourself in that circumstance. First, speak to the Scoutmaster as a friend and supportive individual. Have other parents do the same. Lots of times it helps to be confronted with the impact a poorly behaving boy is havin' on da other boys. It makes addressin' the conflict easier in a SM's mind to know folks have his back. The second suggestion is that yeh need a new Scoutmaster, eh? Someone who has better skills maintainin' relationships with teenage boys. Note that I didn't say disciplining teenage boys or imposing policy on teenage boys! Maintaining relationships with teenage boys and havin' a sense of vision for the troop. Young adults can often be better at this sort of thing. Addressin' behavior with boys who are not your own son requires first buildin' relationships and understandin' the youth dynamics. If yeh have a SM who is mostly an organizer, then sometimes yeh can get away with a lead ASM who has this skill set, but usually it should be the SM. What yeh don't want is to turn a youth behavior issue into a parent vs. parent behavior issue. So first steps? Wait for da next campout and see if it's better. Then supportively share your concerns with da SM. Beavah

Yah, might just be me. I tend to reserve da word "injustice" for things like crippling poverty, wrongful imprisonment, violent oppression of women and da like. Treatin' a request to go camping to receive an award in an outdoors program as "injustice" strikes me as what the boys would call a First World Problem. Besides, the lad isn't tryin' to change the troop's new participation requirements, eh? He's just arguin' that the rule shouldn't apply to him. As close as I can tell, the outcomes here could have been better for the boy (he'd have finished Eagle in his troop, had an ECOH with his friends, maintained relationships with Scouting, learned things and had fun), better for his brother (he'd have been able to stay active in his troop with his friends), better for all the adults (less wasted time and energy on conflicts), better for the troop (stronger scoutin', more time spent on things that matter), and better for Scoutin' overall. How many worse outcomes are we willin' to accept before we recognize that bein' RIGHT is sometimes da wrong choice? For both "sides". Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... Yeh do realize that goin' to a store and buyin' somethin' is enterin' into a contract, right? Kids do that all the time, in all 50 states. Kids also serve as babysitters (enterin' into a contract with da parents), as camp staff, as lifeguards, as fast food workers, as lawn mowers and all sorts of other things. Besides, in da case of a troop, the lad wouldn't be actin' on his own behalf, he'd be actin' as agent for the troop. The troop, whether separately incorporated or as an unincorporated association or as a program of da chartered partner can enter into contracts. Minors can act as agents in all 50 states and Canada. All da rest of da world too. So lots of times it's not da case that "rules are optional", eh? It's just that some folks aren't well informed about how da rules really work. There's also nuthin' to stop a troop from puttin' an SPL on as a signer for a troop debit card or credit card. I knew one troop back before President Obama's over-regulatory credit card law that used to encourage parents to get teens their own bank accounts and credit cards as part of the learnin' for Personal Management MB. They used a bank program that specialized in such things for young people. Seemed like it was really effective for preparin' 'em for da real world. Way more effective than just "discuss with your counselor..." Beavah

Yah, hmmmm.... Not sure why yeh think that, @@sst3rd. From my perspective da only time that it benefits Scouting to start a new troop is when all da available troops in an area are at capacity, eh? Then in addition yeh have an identified underserved and interested market, along with some known good leaders, a likely strong sponsor, and perhaps some older boys or a "brother troop" who can help the new one get on its feet. Startin' a new troop because adults are in some sort of adult drama ego contest almost always ends up with some boys and families in the new troop, some boys and families in the old troop, and a whole bunch of boys and families that leave scoutin' because they don't want to deal with other adults' dramafests. Then yeh have two smaller troops, both of which are less viable, eh? Almost certainly one or the other folds in less than 5 years, dumpin' another bunch of kids out of Scouting in the process. Sometimes both troops fold. Yeh are almost never successful startin' a new troop from a position of dysfunction and weakness, eh? New troops should be started from a position of strength. Otherwise, all yeh do is make Scoutin' poorer in da area. Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... Not sure I understand you, @@Stosh. Da requirements for S-T-2-1 and da requirements for S-L-E are very different, eh? A First Class Scout has developed a set of well-defined basic skills. A S-L-E scout is buildin' experience in PORs and independently pursued MBs of his choice and more service and such. I don't get how the "dynamics" are identical. The usefulness of any award as a Method to inspire kids to work and grow depends on the award havin' real meaning, eh? It must mean that someone who has earned the award is in some way "better", eh? That's why kids choose to pursue the award and get better themselves. Da Valedictorian or Honor Society member got better grades, da Varsity Letter lad is better at playin' ball, etc. Wantin' to be recognized as one of the better ball players is what motivates kids to pursue a Varsity letter. If the award means you're bot any better than any other ballplayer then there's no point in doin' any work to improve in order to pursue a Varsity letter. In other words, there's no point to the Method. No different with scouting. If First Class or Eagle or whatnot doesn't recognize a boy who is better at what Scouting wants to teach, then we should just get rid of the Advancement Method, eh? Because at that point Advancement is useless for our Aims. When I see troops where da focus is on Advancement in the way you describe, I mostly see troops where boys are rewarded for bein' more compliant to adults, eh? In those units Advancement isn't measurin' growth in the lad's character or leadership so much as his ability to navigate paperwork and get signatures. In other words, doin' meaningless tasks to please the adults who are runnin' the show. Those scouts might truly be no better, on average, than other scouts. That's an indictment of those programs, though, not somethin' to be emulated. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... I confess I'm not as fond of joint crews/troops in many cases. Either this happens, or da crew program is shortchanged and becomes just Older Boy Scouts. Stand-alone crews seem to work OK, but then what we're findin' across da country is that they don't have staying power, eh? They tend to fold after the founders age out. That having been said, I know a couple of programs that run joint troop / crews that work very, very well. They're runnin' more on da international scouting model, where crew members are also leaders of troop patrols and help run troop (or sometimes Webelos-level cub) programs. Da PLC and the crew overlap quite a bit. Those programs don't have any problems maintaining older boys in the troop, and the kids seem to handle the extra commitment just fine. The crew is giving 'em fun and adventure with friends, plus a lot of learnin' new skills. The troop is giving 'em scope to use those skills with their friends to lead and teach others. They've got very full calendars, but the youth are the ones workin' the calendar and they seem to cope just fine. It's gettin' the adults to keep up that's more challengin'! My advice for your Scoutmaster would be that if older kids are leavin' the troop program that's on him, eh? The troop program isn't providin' enough scope for their talents. Rather than try to discourage 'em from joining the crew (which never works), encourage 'em to take what they learn in the crew and use it to lead the troop. They should be the ones runnin' mini-high-adventure outings for the troop, leading instruction for the troop, managing safety and drivin' the troop program to new heights. When you've got kids like that, da role of the adults is to get out of the way as fast as yeh can. It's being treated like responsible adults whose skills really matter that keeps boys in the troop. Beavah

Yah, I think that's an excellent thing to go on for now! If the boy loves it and is fitting in, then he's growin' in all sorts of ways you perhaps can't see yet. Bein' the workhorse first year boy around a bunch of older boys leads to a lot of growth and maturity just by way of osmosis. What will likely happen with time is that your son will become one of the primary leaders of the troop, eh? And in doin' that, he'll no longer be "an average kid". I'd encourage you to feed the fire at home. Kids who will work their butts off for pizza can grow quickly, eh? By all means talk to the SM and encourage him to think about what more your son can do or participate in in the troop, but also ask what he's doin' best at in the troop and then encourage/challenge him to do more of that at home. Note: what he's best at, not what he needs work on. Build on your son's strengths rather than pester him about his weaknesses. I think you're goin' to find that while scouting/this troop wasn't a good fit for your son's friend, it might be a great fit for your son. That happens quite a bit. You've got a good kid, eh? In extracurricular activities like scoutin' you should follow his lead. Beavah

Yah, hmmmmm... Maybe there's a part of this where you need to do the Apple Computer thing and "Think Different", @s'morestashe. If you're comin' up from Cub Scouts, you might have a notion that advancement is somethin' that proceeds like school, eh? Everyone works along on things together, boys have to do things where they "get credit", etc. Boy Scout Advancement works differently. It's more individually focused, and at each boy's own pace. Yeh need to think of it a lot more like being a video game than being like school. It's not about getting credit so much as it is about having fun blastin' away aliens until yeh develop da skill to get to the next level. Maybe along the way yeh get a few hints or helps from someone who was once stuck on that same level. Patrol outings are somethin' boys can do on their own, eh? Get some friends and go bikin' or whatnot. Patrol campouts these days need a couple of adults around off in a corner, just one registered leader and a willing parent. Patrol outings are scouting activities. Many of us might call 'em the best scouting activities! So they "count" in terms of nights camping and such, though honestly I've never seen a lad who had really learned the T-2-1 skills who hadn't done way more nights camping than the minimum, so I wouldn't worry about countin' nights if I were you. There's also lots of room for you to have fun as a parent, eh? You can practice foldin' a flag at home, or have your son buy food and cook dinner once a week (we all make extreme sacrifices for our kids ). Send him for swim lessons, challenge him to light fires in your backyard, let him sleep out under the stars at grandpa's farm. Bet him that he can't do 20 pushups or run a mile without stoppin'... then challenge him to better. Scoutin' is double the fun if your parents let yeh play the game at home, too... and then he can be the one that impresses the older boys by beatin' 'em doin' pullups or ripping off the best chicken cordon bleu on the next campout. All yeh need to do is remember it's his game to play. Don't tell him what to do. Don't give anything more than the simplest of hints. Just give him permission, and give him challenges, and let him blast away at da levels until they're easy. Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... odd. I generally tell parents of first-year lads not to get too uptight about advancement as long as their son is goin' on trips and having fun. Part of being a first year scout is just watching and figurin' out how things work, eh? We often forget as adults how hard it is to break into a new community. It's only after yeh start to feel really comfortable and a part of da community that yeh have enough brain cycles to start workin' on advancing within that community. So from what you're sayin', I'm a bit more interested in his lack of participation than in his lack of rank advancement. Can I ask how many "good for all ages" outings there have been since your boy joined? Are we talkin' one a month, one every other month, etc.? What are the nature of the outing restrictions? Can yeh give us a few more examples? Is it stuff like "only swimmers can come on the whitewater raft trip" or "you can come on the backpacking weekend only if yeh come to the backpack checkout meeting"? Or somethin' else? What particular restrictions are keepin' your son from participatin'? Can yeh tell us about your Scoutmaster and the ASMs? Are they all parents of older high school aged boys who seem most interested in their sons' activities? Or somethin' else? How often are Courts of Honor held? Sometimes what can happen in some troops is that they have a bad experience with a few less physically fit or more homesick young boys, so they swing the pendulum way toward the side of limitin' young lads to what they are certain every young one can handle. That's natural, eh? It's also a form of being kind. I usually gently nudge 'em back toward usin' the older lads to coach and support the young ones more strongly. My guess is that if your son keeps comin' out frequently and tryin' to contribute in a positive way, the older boys will adjust and say "Joey is really cool, he's OK to come along" and your son will be in 7th heaven. One way to spur that can be if your son has identified an older scout he likes (maybe his PL or TG?) to have him ask that boy if he can come on da next "restricted" trip, or if the older boy can help him learn what he needs to learn to be able to do that? It's one thing to propose an idea to a group; it's another thing to ask an individual for help. Yeh might get shot down on da first, but most likely you'll find a friend and ally with da second. Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... Interestin' conversation. I confess I like da Troop Vote idea. Maybe even ask the boys to write a brief reason for their vote. The boys see the behavior of other boys when no adults are watching, eh? No reason why the lad can't ask for a Troop Vote as soon as he gets Life, eh? Then one of two things will happen. The boys will affirm their confidence in him, or the lad will learn that he's got some work to do. I think that sort of feedback would be powerful. Troop Votes would be good for only 6 months or so, eh? It should be how you're showin' Scout Spirit now, not how yeh showed Scout Spirit once upon a time. I think @@SSF captured da spirit of what I'm talkin' about best. My view is pretty similar to @@Venividi's and many others. Eagle isn't somethin' yeh get for just not doing bad things that require you to be disciplined. It's recognition for goin' out of your way to do good things, at some personal cost in terms of time, effort, etc. Eagle Scout represents positive character, not da absence of negative character. For me at least. Put another way, just because yeh weren't expelled doesn't mean yeh should be in da National Honor Society. I view Eagle Scout more like bein' in da National Honor Society than bein' a fellow who just barely graduated by fulfillin' the minimum credit requirements. Maybe that's where we're gettin' confused, eh? Cub Scoutin' creeps into Boy Scoutin' all the time, and in Cub Scoutin' the awards line up with grade levels. Cub Scout awards are more like "graduating" from the 3rd to the 4th grade. We adopted a bit of that mentality with First Class First Year, eh? Turned it more into a time-based graduation sort of thing rather than a skills-based award boys pursue at their own pace. Maybe we should have some sort of "graduation" certificate in Scoutin' that represents doin' all da requirements. Once-and-done, checked da box, no adding, pretty much everybody on the same timetable, no character or other "subjective" evaluation required, yeh can pass with a "D" grade. Then we could use Eagle (or some other awards) to recognize the boys who really represent "Eagle Scout" to most of us. There'd be less confusion. I confess I feel a bit sorry for boys who never get any sort of subjective evaluation or feedback as youth, eh? Seems like they'd be handicapped in life, since every evaluation they'll ever experience from here on out will have a subjective component. College admissions, military promotions, job interviews, work evaluations, assessment of their papers and presentations, etc. Character, commitment, and ability — whether others view you as Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful and Competent— those are the things that are goin' to matter da most to a boy's future. Beavah

@@Eagle94-A1, what was da problem with da youth gettin' the neckers? Oh, ah, just reread that. It's his embroidery machine. Easy answer to that, eh? Just go find someone else with an embroidery machine. Even if yeh have to pay a bit. "Well, Mr. Naysayer, you just seemed really busy and we didn't want to take up any more of your time, so we went ahead and did it ourselves. A Scout is Courteous." It's that sort of "rebellion" that I think is great for kids to learn, eh? If there's a roadblock yeh don't complain, yeh don't argue or fight... yeh just go around, or over, or under, or through. It's a good lesson for boys to learn, eh? It's usually not good use of our time tryin' to change other people. We've got complete control of ourselves, though, so we can keep movin' things forward. Then they can either follow or be left behind. The fellow who does the work is the fellow who controls da outcome. Beavah

@@Eagledad, are yeh channeling the spirit of Kudu with your 300 foot comment? I'd say "Have fun and tell me all the stories when yeh get back!". Beavah

Yah, hmmm... Dat's quite a luddite camp yeh have there. Probably the youth says to himself "Sheesh, what a pain. I'm goin' to shift da outing to the state park where I can make an online reservation without da hassle." Otherwise the lad signs it the same way my secretary signs most of my letters, eh? He signs my name and then follows it with his initials. Or he just uses my electronic signature . Then he goes over to Mrs. Jones da treasurer and picks up a check to mail in. As @@qwazse says, the lads do a fine job with just about all of da jobs we think of as "adult" jobs, if we let 'em. The troops that do let 'em tend to hold on to more of their older scouts, eh? The troops that don't have boys who fade at around age 16, except for perhaps da one SPL who is doin' a lot. Contrary to popular opinion, it's not really high adventure that keeps older boys active, it's bein' given real responsibility and scope to practice their growin' abilities. Beavah

Yah, in another thread @@MattR says: The BSA created this monster. The term Eagle sells this program like none other and yet the meaning of that term is the source of all the grief. It's not the adults that are the problem so much as the definition of Eagle. Seems like that's a worthy thing to discuss without all da sturm und drang associated with a particular case. I can't figure out how to spin off a new thread in this newfangled forum software, so I'm just startin' from scratch. I reckon @@MattR has a good point in that we aren't very consistent about what we view as an Eagle Scout. On the one hand, we say it means a lad who exhibits da best of character, fitness, and citizenship. Somethin' that only 5% manage to achieve, somethin' so important that it merits a full private banquet award ceremony, congratulatory letters from POTUS and other local, state, and national leaders, somethin' that is so outstandin' that it merits special consideration for college admissions and military promotions and job applications. On the other hand, we say it means someone who has done just da requirements, no adding. Which means a lad who has gone car campin' 20 nights in 7 years, sat through some Saturday mornin' MB classes, drowned in a forward direction for 100 yards once upon a time, and held a title of Troop Librarian for a bit over a year in a troop that really didn't have much of a library (aren't all these things online now? ). So let's talk about what Eagle Scout should be, eh? Or maybe what yeh make it mean in your program and how yeh do that. To add fuel to da fire, I've always had a warm spot in my heart for Eagle Scouts when hirin' or lookin' for interns and such. I've had pretty good luck that way. I also have a colleague who won't hire Eagle Scouts any more. His experience has been that Eagle Scouts expect to have everything laid out for 'em and spoon fed to 'em. He finds 'em to be da bottom of da barrel in terms of work performance. Beavah

Yah, I think this is becomin' more and more common, eh? Let's face it, the days of paper checks are mostly done and over. Go with a reputable online payment processor. Some of da Scoutin' specific web hosting services offer this feature, and they're fine. There are lots of others, though... just look for ones that are more friendly to small-payment NFP entities. Yeh should be able to get by with only around 3-4% overhead in processing fees. Never, ever, ever take CC numbers yourself. Never. It opens yeh up to a world of liability. Make folks log in themselves and pay online. Beavah