Beavah

Nah, yeh don't need treatment consent for adults. Adults can consent to their own treatment, eh? So it's not the same issue it is for kids, who can't consent on their own and whose parents aren't present. Now, yeh do want adult health histories and physician signoffs, just to be alert to possible first aid issues and things that might affect trip safety. And yeh might want adult liability releases if yeh are acting like a guide service for novice adults. Say, for example, if you're a BSA climbing instructor and you're instructing parents as well as boys on a trip. But for treatment consent? Nope, not an issue, and won't do yeh a lick of good unless it's a full health care power of attorney or equivalent document. Beavah Of course, anything yeh read on the Internet signed by someone named "Beavah" is just da opinion of an eccentric old scouter, and should not be taken as legal advice or opinion. A detailed discussion on da merits of liability waivers and such is best taken up with a less furry legal fellow familiar with your program, CO arrangements, and da law in your jurisdiction.

Yeh might check out this packet done by some venturers in your state: http://troop8.org/sites/troop8.org/files/book/winter_0.pdf A friend referred me to that a few years ago and I've given it to a few younger troops in these parts who were doin' their first winter campout. Yeh should also have your troop youth or adult leaders look into Okpik trainin', which I'm sure is available over there in Michigan as well. B

Spam, spam, spammity spam.

Yah, I think Speedy makes a good point, eh? Up here in da Great White Blizzard-Covered North, all the kids and families have a pretty good supply of cold-weather clothing, eh? Yep, yeh need to check it out and make some changes/additions and such, but yeh can count on 80-90% of the gear being provided by the families and being winter-sound. If yeh live in da middle to southern regions of the country, that may not be da case, eh? Most of the families probably don't have the gear to go campin' in the snow, and most kids aren't used to the cold through 12 years of recess and snowball fights and shovelin' their driveway. I remember readin' once that in Army winter training, the incidence of hypothermia and frostbite is four times higher for soldiers from da south than those from the north. Same gear, eh? Just that us northerners know all da little tricks to deal with the weather. That puts a much bigger gear and trainin' burden on a troop from da lower latitudes. While it would be extremely rare for a troop up in these parts to ever cancel a winter campout (hey, our cars and drivers are prepared for it too, eh!), I could see discretion bein' the better part of valor in other areas. Beavah

Satisfaction and learnin' are two different things, eh? Yeh can be like SeattlePioneer, and be satisfied that WB helped re-kindle your scoutin' enthusiasm even though yeh didn't learn much by way of leadership. I think all da different WB incarnations have their pluses and minuses. I reckon it's probably right that one of da real benefits is throwin' some extra fuel on your scoutin' fire and making some longer-term contacts and friendships with fellow leaders. Yah, sure, da beads also act like a college ring - a way "in" to da social groups of longer-time scouters. Leastways, to some of 'em, though personally I don't care for that sort of thing when it gets too cliquey. Some folks are into it, though, and social support isn't always a bad thing. If yeh have spent much time in management seminars and retreats, you'll recognize da WB21C stuff and yeh might be a bit jaded toward it. If not, yeh might find that stuff fresh and interestin', and get a few ideas about how to apply it to workin' with kids. The WB21C course really won't build your kid-skills or outdoor skills, so if you're lookin' for that yeh might be disappointed, especially since the current course isn't program-specific, eh? One size fits all, Tigers to Rangers, District Chairs to Assistant Den Leaders to Ship Committee members. Like folks say, much as da project plays a big role in Eagle, workin' your ticket plays a big role in WB. If you've had a few ideas about things yeh think your unit needs to improve on or ways yeh think your district can grow, it can give yeh the incentive and push and a bit of support to roll up your sleeves and take that on. In that way, yeh get out of it what yeh put in. Beavah

Yah, packsaddle, I agree with all your bullet points, eh? Yeh just need to make a distinction between da Federal Reserve and the "government" to get clarity. Da Federal Reserve is just creating money, eh? That's its function. Loosely speakin', the central bank needs to create more money as the economy expands. Da bigger the economy, the more money yeh need in circulation to support it. That's the problem with da gold standard, eh? Gold is a limited commodity, so it can't expand with economic growth, which causes deflation which in turn reduces economic growth. So all those rubes who yearn for a return to da gold standard are just a bunch of fruitcakes. But that is just da Federal Reserve, eh? Not the "government". The U.S. government debt has been, (until now) independent of da creation of dollars. That independence is important to investor confidence and security. So da government can't create dollars just to finance itself. And because of da delays in the system resulting from that independence, da Federal Reserve can't necessarily prevent a default or bankruptcy of da government just by printing money. One can argue even if it should try. Now, when da central bank creates more money and injects it into da broader system through its bank loan and OMC actions, that works well, eh? To my mind, it works best when they do it in a predictable way that matches economic growth and bond yield spreads. Da federal reserve accepts payments in different asset classes... gold, foreign currencies, etc. which form its "reserves". Da central bank's reserves are used when it has to go da other direction, and reduce money supply or stabilize the dollar buy buying dollars back in exchange for reserves. Again, that works well if it's done predictably based on underlyin' economic activity and bond yield spreads. Da problem is ever since their mandate was changed to a general economic one they tend to be pushed to respond to the swings in da market rather than the underlyin' economics of wealth generation, and when they do that they're always too slow. So they create bubbles which make da system less stable, rather than more. Each of da last 3 crashes yeh can trace to that in some way. Now it's a different beast with QE2, where they're just creatin' money and givin' it to the government, rather than the general economy. That is, as yeh say, "monetizing" the debt. That's crossin' a big line. Da reason all of their money printing isn't havin' any effect is as you say. It's just goin' into bank reserves, replacing one fictional bubble asset (mortgage-backed CDOs and derivatives) with another (rapidly devaluing dollars backed by da Central Bank's "reserves" of increasingly dubious Treasury Bonds). Bubble assets work for a while, eh? Yeh can party like it's 1999 or 2006, so long as da majority of folks believe they have value. That's why what they're doin' with Treasury Bonds is so ultimately terrifying, eh? They're creatin' a bubble in Treasuries, which are used by everybody as a "risk-free" reserve asset. We created a catastrophe for a lot of investors when da stock bubble crashed in 2000. We almost took out da world economic system when supposedly "safe" mortgage-backed bonds crashed in 2008. Now we're pumpin' up a bubble in the one asset that's built into worldwide financial models as absolutely risk-free. That's so deeply embedded in thinking and computer models that yeh can't even tell the assumption is there. They're creatin' the bubble da same way they did with da mortage bubble, eh? By printing dollars over and above what is necessary to meet da need of economic expansion. In this case, to prop up Treasury Bond spreads. In da process, they're doin' the unthinkable. In da middle of the Tulip Bubble, the Federal Reserve is buying Tulips for its own reserves. So if yeh keep this up, when da bubble bursts this time, both da government and the central bank are goin' with it. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, it takes good judgment and some moral courage to make the "no go" call, eh? I'm often not completely confident in a scout leader until I see that, his/her ability to say "no" to a lad and to a parent, and his/her ability to "step in" appropriately when noticing a situation that requires support or intervention. Then yeh work with 'em on when not to step in, and how to build up da youth skills so that the youth can make the "no go" calls, say "no" to each other, and "step in" appropriately. Beavah

Unlike any person, or any company, the US government has the ability to create money Not really, or we could just fiat da deficit away. The government runs on a budget, eh? Revenues and expenses. It doesn't create money, it pays its bills with tax revenues and fees or by selling bonds. Da Central Bank can introduce more money to the system in several ways, typically by making bank loans or intervening in da financial markets through da Open Market Committee as buyer or lender of last resort to keep some interest rates within their targets. They've gotten a lot more creative lately, with da purchase of Treasuries being the most "raw" introduction of new dollars direct to da government in the way you suggest. Da Fed's mandate is not government solvency, however, it's dollar stability and general economic security. It doesn't have to buy Treasuries. And even a bit of dithering could lead to insolvency. We can also go bankrupt in da way the Tea Party Republicans seem to want, eh? Just by refusing to raise the debt ceiling. In da present environment, cash flows cannot be maintained without borrowing, because revenues don't come in uniformly in sync with obligations coming due. So that would lead to sovereign default. This is an interestin' experiment, eh? Which will break first when da worldwide reserve currency goes under? If yeh keep up with da bubble in Treasuries, yeh can anticipate an eventual crash in a few ways. Da Fed can keep buying to keep the yields low, until it's balance sheet is worthless and the dollar crashes. Or the bubble will just burst and yields will rocket higher, imposing crushing interest rates on da U.S. Government and economy and leading to deflation. Or we can go like Japan and ride da edge of that, and just keep selling U.S. Dollars so people can use 'em to buy commodity dollars like Canadian $ in an ongoing carry trade, leaving the government solvent but da domestic economy impoverished. It'll be a fascinatin' train wreck to watch. Saddest thing is that da one thing we'll still have is da world's biggest military, so da temptation to get out of our troubles by taking resources from others by force will be hard to avoid. Beavah We can

Yes they might be in an average of 4 years, but your not accounting for drops. Yah, sure I was. If yeh have 900,000 scouts who are in an average of 4 years, then on average yeh have 900K/4 = 225K drop per year, and 225K add per year. We know some stay in 7 years and some drop in 1, but that's da average. So each year yeh have 50,000 Eagles, and each year yeh have 225,000 who joined. As long as that stays relatively stable, that means yeh get 50K/225K = 22% of the boys who join make Eagle. Of course it's not completely stable, because membership has been declinin' just a bit each year. That of course would make the percentage of those who make Eagle slightly higher. Not by that much, though. So it's a pretty good rough estimate. Of course da lower our retention rate the lower that Eagle percentage rate is. Da more kids we lose the more rare Eagle becomes. So if we hold kids for only 3 years on average it goes down to da 16.7% someone mentioned. IIRC, retention is between 3 and 4 years. I think it comes down to da issue that families are smaller, so parents are more "invested" in each kid's success, and as a result the program has become more adult-driven / adult-structured in all da ways folks suggest. In some cases that also comes with a decline in expectations when things get too adult/advancement focused. I gotta say, though, that it also seems much less fun to kids than it used to be, and more like work. Beavah

Yah, more and more bizarre. No easy way to troubleshoot this from afar, eh? To my mind, though, if someone is being told a decision taken behind closed doors with no opportunity for the man to defend himself is "final", then things have been hijacked. Da COR should say "no" to any council demands and call the council and area presidents. I'd suggest the SM consult with his attorney and consider a "shot across the bow" letter to the DC and DE, since it's quite clear that their words and actions have damaged his reputation in the community. Since da DE is presumably acting in his capacity as DE, I'd hint at da possibility of expanding da action to include the council and copy the SE. "Scouting professional and local scout council named in slander suit against hardworking volunteer" would definitely be picked up by the 4th Estate. Beavah

Yah, in da parent thread E61 made a comment about needing to stuff tents. That's contrary to my experience, which mirrors SR540's. Yeh should roll a tent to prevent damage and maintain its health the longest (though sometimes when backpacking it's easier and faster to stuff). This is of course a Great Debate. Most of da manufacturers say roll, but not all. Check out: http://www.backpacker.com/roll_or_fold_tent/blogs/daily_dirt/1249 So what do you do personally and what do yeh teach the boys? I personally roll to store or car camp, but stuff to backpack, and that's what I teach when asked. Beavah

Yah, every troop handles QC differently, eh? Some have well-trained BOR members who delay advancement when appropriate. Lots of times, though, especially when just usin' regular parents for BORs, yeh see troops use the SM conference as the "last requirement" before the BOR, and it is the quality control step, fulfilling da functions that traditionally go with a BOR (make sure the boy has learned, find out about his experience in the troop, encourage further advancement). Both work fine. For Eagle, of course, it's the SM's decision after the SMC whether or not to sign off on da Eagle application. So in that sense, there is a possibility for the SM to defer/dissent on advancement. Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... Good heavens. All this from a DC? Where is the Council Commish, pray tell? Or do you mean District Chair instead of District Commish? Every now and then yeh get some fellow who just wants to hijack da process. Best usually to have someone pull him aside and explain that he's welcome to stay and politely do his job, or exit through the door, or exit through the window. I like ScoutNut's response, eh? You're a council member as COR. Call the SE and share your concern about the behavior of da DE. Then call the Council Commissioner and Council President and express your same concern about da behavior of the DC. If yeh don't get satisfactory responses, call the other CORs in your district and show up at the next district committee meeting and introduce a motion to remove the fellow from his position. Sometimes yeh just have to let folks know there's another side and they're willin' to make as big a stink as the first loudmouth, eh? Lots of folks are conflict adverse, and will go along with somethin' improper just to avoid the conflict, so long as there's no alternate voice. When conflict is inevitable one way or da other, then they think about it and do the right thing. Whether it's a district chair or district commish, their role is to support and help the unit's leaders, not choose 'em or try to run da unit. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, I got Tokala's joke, eh? Yeh just have to understand da perpective of council program people. Good caution for yeh, though, Tok. SMT224, to answer your question, yes, national had problems with the old national tour permit system in that they didn't want to handle it anymore. So they dumped it, which made the old local tour permit da only document. So they spruced that up so it could handle longer and international trips as well as "local" ones and renamed it Tour Plan. Yah, I loved da bit about 4 pages of standard letter size being an improvement over two pages of legal sized . Since Tour Plans are now exclusively a local council thing, national is apparently getting out of da electronic form business. But there's nuthin' that says your council can't opt to create an electronic submission system. They might even do a better job of it, just to get da FOS contributions from hundreds of stunned, happy scouters. Beavah

Yah, semperfiscouter, yeh got da official answer there, eh? The BSA won't let you dual register in the same unit. That having been said, pack leadership in particular tends to be pretty informal. Lots of packs have DLs who also effectively contribute to the committee, or who serve as de facto Assistant Cubmasters. It's pretty common, especially in smaller units. So keep your registration as Den Leader, then contribute your time, treasure, and enthusiasm for scouting by helpin' out the Cubmaster or the Committee as much as you are able. Don't let titles or registration paperwork get in the way of contributin' to the development of the next generation of Americans. Beavah

Welcome back, magic823! And thanks for livin' up to your Eagle Charge by continuing to give back to da program. Yep, keep workin' da change from within! B

Resqman, no reason why da SM conference can't be done by an ASM. Same with blue cards and whatnot. In fact, that would give an incentive for a parent SM to recruit an active ASM or two, eh? Which would make for a stronger unit.

Yah, da thing is... Nuthin' in what clemlaw says manages to explain the huge increase in da numbers of Eagles in that time period, eh? Somethin' must be different. Beavah

Yah, of course it's appropriate to sit with the lads and tell 'em that if they want an award they actually have to work hard to be worthy of the award. Personally, I wouldn't e en make it about da award, eh? If they want to be respected by others, they have to work hard. Being given awards is only one part of being respected by others. I continue to be surprised by da adults who don't have the pluck to insist on high standards, and make excuses with laughably narrow readings of the requirements. "it only says everyday life, so I can skate by in scouting" is an argument that even da most disputatious teenager would be embarrassed by, eh? I can't figure how any adult in a program that aims to build personal honor and character can make it with a straight face. The Rules & Regulations state clearly that all interpretation of the advancement program materials must harmonize with da aims. So if yeh want to live up to da application yeh signed to be an adult scouter, and yeh want to provide a true scouting program, yeh can't buy into that sort of silly reading of da requirements. Like OGE says, have a SM conference or a BOR and explain your disappointment with the lad, and inspire him to do better. But don't give him an award for just markin' time. Beavah

Yah, I think yeh all forget that bankruptcy happens when yah dont have da funds to pay off all of your obligations, eh? When a company goes bankrupt, it still has considerable income and cash, just not enough. This triggers a chaotic feedin' frenzy of competing creditors, some of which will be in financial disaster themselves if not paid in full. It can be pretty ugly, eh? Failure to meet all da obligations is catastrophic, whether for Social Security or da sovereign debt. Can someone explain to me why da Republicans don't huts adopt da Obama Deficit Commission Plan outright? It'd be da perfect coup, foisting him on his own pitard. A 4 trillion debt reduction in 10 years sure beats anything they're proposing, and sure beats da 7.7 trillion debt expansion Obama is proposing. Beavah

Nah, Richard, I doubt anybody is outside of camp accidents or da very serious. Da system is not well publicized, and inconvenient to use, without very good reportin' guidelines. You and I both know if yeh want to do this right, yeh need to collect total activity day information from each unit at recharter, along with incident and accident reports (which also could be filed online at any time). That way yeh can generate rates. And da best way to communicate the existence of such a system and encourage it's use is to regularly and aggressively share the data. Until yeh do that, yeh won't ever get voluntary compliance or high quality reporting. Look at the stuff da Mountaineers does with the Accidents in North American Mountaineering or what American Whitewater does with boater safety reports or what da SCUBA, NOLS/WRMC, or even Aviation communities do. Lots of great models out there for voluntary reporting systems, eh? Beavah

Nah, standardization is a myth, eh? I'm willin' to bet that yeh didn't do the minimum coursework required for graduation. I doubt very many scouts do da minimum coursework required for high school graduation, either. Odds are they challenge themselves with AP-this and honors-that, and this, that, and the other sport or extracurricular. And I'm willing to bet that their parents and their school counselors and teachers push 'em to do that. They aren't at all interested in everyone doin' the same work. So why the emphasis on high achievement there, and the skate thing in Scouting? Only reason that I can think of is that the people designin' the AP-classes and givin' out the awards actually care about making them really meaningful. Yeh can dumb any of 'em down, you can grade-inflate honors and AP classes same as yeh can with anything, and a few do. But mostly, outside strangers and individual instructors set a high bar, complete with some competition in a loose sort of way (leastways, da testing lets yeh see whether yeh fall at the 5th or 95th percentile). And the kids strive to meet the challenge set 'em. All comes down to personal integrity on the part of da folks issuing awards and citations. In that way, parent signers really are a bad conflict of interest, eh? I remember once reading some research that showed that more parent involvement in school governance led to lower student achievement. Yeh don't want those with a conflict of interest to be settin' da standards, yeh want 'em on the other side pushin' their kids to achieve. As big a thing, yeh want the AP Test folks to have a vision for what high achievement means and to stick to it in terms of evaluation standards. Our AP test folks (National Program staff) I think have lost that. So without that national vision, it comes down to individual units, eh? And if yeh have an individual unit that is mostly parent-driven in a bad way, yeh have a recipe for "weak." Beavah

Yah, I'm confused by OGE's question. Scouts skating to Eagle is what happens when they should be spending their time ice fishing, but would rather go racing hither and yon at high speed around da top of the pond rather than sittin' like a patient adult with a line in the water. Or it may be that it's when someone gives 'em a certificate for being a successful ice fisherman because they felt sorry for 'em after they came by for a bit in the cold, hard world but didn't catch a fish. Yeh have to keep up their interest and self-esteem, after all. And da requirement didn't actually specify that they had to be successful, or really pay attention even. They just had to be present some of da time (but without a fixed percentage). Beavah

I guess the question of which I know the book answer is, what are the bounds of boy lead? (GSS, safety, etc.) Yah, this question seemed worthy to spin off, eh? Da context was on the issue of banning various electronics on campouts, so yeh can address that question in the original thread. In this one, it's a broader question. Perhaps its best if yeh say where the boundary lies in your troop/crew/team at the moment is. Real-life examples for folks, rather than just theory. Then yeh can add what yeh think da "ideal" theory would be, if yeh really feel the need. Beavah

Yah, Scoutfish, looks like a job well done. As AKDenLeader says, pack tradition as far as the boys are concerned is whatever happened last year. Most of da B&Gs I visit I find to be not very kid-friendly. Whoever got the notion that elementary school boys and banquets should be put together really needs to have been taken out back and used as a target for Arrows of Light. Banquets? With 7 to 10 year-olds? Really? I think your modifications are just fine. Times change, traditions change. And sometimes old traditions are more about being lazy and not lookin' at what kids and families really want than about scouting. The boys will remember a great time, and will want that experience for their kids someday. I ain't ever known a lad to remember a banquet. Heck, I try not to remember da banquets I have to attend! Beavah