Beavah

Yah, not sure why you'd expect a union to be anything other than somethin' that represents the issues of its members. Of course they're not there to solve all da issues of education, any more than my dentist can be expected to perform an appendectomy. Da union's job is to represent teachers. Now, I confess that I have a hard time with da notion of unions of professionals. Unions exist primarily to protect those workers who do not have da ability or education to negotiate their own interests. Folks who are easily replaced or taken advantage of, because they are unskilled labor or such. So I don't quite get the need for a union of teachers. Like other professionals, they should be able to negotiate their own contracts, eh? And those contracts shouldn't look like da sort of work rules stuff that a custodian's union would generate. Leastways, if they are in fact professionals. At da same time, yeh rarely get unions without employer abuses causing 'em to form, and I reckon the State can be an awful and oppressive employer. Yeh do need to have as many checks on state power as you can get, and unionization is one of those. So I do see a real need for public employees' unions more generally. Take blind seniority and tenure off da table, mandate sending health care out for bids once da terms have been negotiated. But yeh shouldn't use da power of the state to take away collective bargaining rights that anybody else in da private sector is entitled to. Beavah

Yah, I reckon as a patient I'd be pretty darn upset if I found out that da X-Ray Technicians were only taught to the test, eh? As a patient, I want 'em to be taught until they can demonstrate an ability to perform in da work environment, which means knowin' how to get a good image under normal and abnormal circumstances and read and interpret images in context. To be honest, I couldn't care less if they passed some paper test so long as they could do that. And if they passed da test by memorizing facts and figures or by learnin' test-taking tricks or by cramming, then I figure I'm not a very happy patient. Or employer. Da student also should feel pretty cheated, too. It's just like scouting, eh? Yeh can teach for understanding... be a real MBC, help the lads really learn how to light a fire in all kinds of conditions or handle real first aid when it counts. Or yeh can teach for da requirement, have 'em memorize and repeat da steps for first aid, test 'em at the end of the day of Merit Badge College. Teachin' for the test is what hacks do. Teachin' for real understanding, mastery, and success - that takes character, commitment, and ability. Beavah

Yah, seems like da real issue here is just a CM with a "personality", eh? . There's really no issue of youth safety or any of all the rest, so that's kinda moot. I reckon since this fellow has no use for training or for council more generally, that he came with a chip on his shoulder and a short fuse. Yeh usually can't do too much about these fellows, eh? I'd just let your RT commish know so that he or she is prepared to aggressively stick to the RT agenda and not allow off-topic interruptions. For da rest, I'll just say my usual schtick, eh? All of the BSA program materials, includin' the G2SS (which is really just a compilation of stuff from other places), are just program materials in a kids' program. Yeh can't treat 'em like they're laws or regulations. Yeh can't even behave like they're employer policies or work rules. They aren't written that way, with da level of resources and attention to detail that is required of those sorts of legal or professional documents. Yep, beginners who read da BSA program materials tend to take 'em really literally. That's what beginners do, eh? And that's a fine thing, because it helps the beginners keep out of trouble. Those with more experience recognize over time that there are all kinds of situations and circumstances that require judgment rather than literalism, but who still hold to da key principles of da guidelines. That's just da difference that comes with expertise. So Bluejacketscouter has added to his experience, eh? He now knows that when dealin' with folks with personalities, yeh have to do a bit more to roll out da red carpet for 'em the first time. Either that or just not invite 'em. Bluejacket, thanks for all yeh do for the kids. And a special thanks on behalf of da kids for what yeh do to put up with adult "personalities" and to keep da program runnin' in spite of 'em. Beavah

Yah, I'm curious like packsaddle what da real issue was for the original complainers. Was it that the women were uncomfortable sharing quarters with the men (or vice versa)? Or was it that the leaders were uncomfortable with moms and dads being with their kids in the great room? Or was it just an overly scrupulous reading of da G2SS by a few newly trained but inexperienced leaders? In order to apply G2SS to da practical, real-world situations we all encounter, it's not enough just to quote da wording, eh? There's no way anyone in Irving or anywhere else in the BSA can possible write wording to cover all of the myriad situations that yeh can encounter, and if they tried the G2SS would be over a thousand pages instead of over 100. So it's always necessary to actually understand da guidelines and the reason for 'em so that you can apply them intelligently in each situation. Otherwise we'd be making moms sleep in their cars at -20 degrees for that museum outing, rather than just sleepin' at da other end of the T-Rex. With cubs in particular the issues are a bit different than with the older youth programs, eh? Moms might insist on sleepin' where their kid can see them or vice versa, so holdin' strictly to the "no women in the boys' dorm" rule actually reduces youth protection rather than enhancing it, and reduces people's confidence that we know what we're doin'. Heck, yeh might well have a cub pack with no male leaders; are yeh really goin' to leave da Tiger cubs unattended all night in a strange place? Yah, we want to avoid da appearance of impropriety by having a male and female leader not share the same tent, but does anyone see any appearance of impropriety in havin' 10 moms and dads share a great big floor? Really? Da old phrase "get a grip" comes to mind. Sometimes I think where we fail with G2SS is that we really need to acknowledge in writing that these things require judgment. Otherwise yeh have novices blindly followin' da guidelines into a ditch. Beavah

Yah, I think it's a different question, eh? Da question should instead be what's the most effective way to conduct family FOS in a way that is successful at raising funds and building long term good will and donor loyalty? Group presentations might not be da right way at all. How many college alumni development efforts rely on once a year group presentations? When was da last time ARC did somethin' like that?And yet I reckon they're pretty successful. There's a difference between thoughtful, professional fundraising and this sort of mildly offensive and unprofessional court of honor mass solicitation stuff. Anyone who has had experience with da former realizes just how poor the latter is. Beavah

Yah, SeaEagleDad, its hard to assess these things from afar, eh? If what you're sayin' is objectively true without any color from being the husbsnd of an aggrieved worker, then I reckon all that's necessary for evil to succeed is for good folks to do nothing, eh? The SE is hired by and works for the council executive board, not the BSA. Your wife and others need to file complaints with the council president for sexual harassment and age discrimination. And then yeh need to do what yeh need to do eh? Which do yeh think is worse for scouting, lettin' this council and professional harm employees and scouting's reputation or pursuing a just complaint with da regulating bodies or the courts? This sort of stuff continues only because nobody stands up to stop it. I agree with da others. Yeh don't need support from an online forum, yeh need to talk with someone specializing in labor law, who will give yeh da options at your disposal. If yeh get a large judgment yeh can always donate it back when da SE leaves, eh? Yeh can also talk to da local office workers unions in your area about organizing the council, dependin' on its size . We are each responsible for addressin' the injustices that we see, with both prudence and fortitude. Beavah

So I'm not offended by merit badge programs that provide an introduction to the topic rather than a degree of mastery of the topic.... The practical way for troops to deepen the merit badge experience is to use the merit badge introduction as a springboard for the troop program into USING the merit badge skills to achieve more experience and understanding. Well I'm not sure any of us are offended, eh? Just disappointed. We owe da boys more. The thing is, if yeh remember your training, SeattlePioneer, what yeh talk about as "deepening" the MB experience is actually supposed to be part of the MB experience, not extra. In your first aid example, a proper first aid MB will have the boys doing scenarios and treating moulaged (fake wounds) victims in various circumstances as a part of learning, eh? Not just sittin' in a class and memorizing treatments out of the book or doin' a basic splint once or twice with help. Yep, a troop meeting or a class can be a good introduction to the MB, so a lad can figure out if he's interested. But then to pursue the MB he should meet with a counselor/mentor who gives him some personal attention, and he should work hard to actually learn / master / be proficient in da skills. The requirements, after all, are pretty basic, eh? They're not college material, they're an introduction. But to really get a meaningful introduction, the lad does need to do the work to master those basic requirements. Dare I quote da materials again? This time from Leader Specific Training syllabus: Those who are teaching Scouts a skill do the following: 1. Demonstrate the skill. 2. Work with scouts on learning the skill. 3. Reinforce the use of the skill at troop meetings and during monthly outings. This reinforcement can occur by incorporating the skill into patrol competitions, troop projects, and other hands-on events. 4. Test scouts when the scouts feel they are ready... A Scout wanting to complete a requirement to advance in rank must demonstrate to a scout leader that he has fully mastered a skill at the level expected. (emphasis mine) I think where summer camps and MBU's and units really fail with da advancement program is when they skip step 3 and go right to step 4. They think that talking and showing is enough for a boy to learn, or they devalue real mastery, the work it takes, and the confidence it brings the lad. In short, they cheat the boy out of da real growth and a real introduction to the topic. Most of da time it's well-meaning, like I said earlier. It's folks who think the lad has learned just because he's been talked at in a group, or feel that because they as an instructor were engaged in a great discussion, that boy who was number 21 out of 25 who never got a chance to speak was also engaged in a great discussion. Then they either skip individual testing (most common) claimin' not enough time, or they try individual testing but excuse da lack of mastery as forgetfulness or shyness or whatnot and sign anyway to make the lad and themselves feel good. Real learnin', real growth, even a basic introduction to a topic, takes some time and effort strugglin' to master those basics. When we cheat on da steps, we only cheat the boys. Beavah

Yah, sounds like a great class Eagle92! Yeh certainly put a lot of time, effort, and thought into it. Now I'm goin' to quibble a bit, for the sake of discussion, knowin' that you'll take it in da friendly way it is intended. You put a lot of time, effort, and thought into it... but what about the boys? How much time, effort, and thought did they really put into it? Yep, yeh brought a museum to them. I admire your effort. But that was your effort, eh? Perhaps, just maybe, a lad would learn more about da subject and about life by havin' to find and go to an actual museum, to collect photos and information and think about 'em himself so that he can discuss it with his counselor afterward. You know, rather than havin' his counselor discuss it with him, if yeh get my drift. Now that I've got yeh thinkin', let's try another. Now my guess is that for requirement one most lads wrote sorta superficial school book reports, eh? They probably didn't get into really thinkin' about the life and culture of their chosen tribe until the discussion portion of your session. That's where the adult expert really shines, eh? Helpin' that come alive for 'em. From your description yeh did a great job with that in da discussions in the class, eh? I bet it was a lot of fun. Now I don't know how big your classes were, but could yeh honestly do that for each boy in the group? Spend the time to help each boy's tribe come alive? Give feedback on da research of every lad? I'm willin' to bet that some boys' research was a bit spotty da first go 'round. How many did yeh send back for more research after helpin' 'em see how to go about it? Maybe yeh could if yeh had a small group, but I doubt anybody could for some of da large classes I see at these things. And there's the rub, eh? There's a difference between your level of engagement with da material as the instructor and a boy's level of engagement as one out of 25 listeners. For you, you're highly engaged and it seems great. For lad number 25 in da corner? Perhaps not as much as you, eh? Did 25 lads really learn two songs in a native language, and their meaning? Yeh had each lad sing the songs on his own and explain the meaning on his own the way all of us MBC's are supposed to? Or was it more like yeh taught the whole group two songs, that they then sang together or in groups, and you explained the meaning to them? I think yeh did as fine a job as can be expected at these things. Still, I'm willing to bet that a lad and his buddy would have a much deeper, richer, more meaningful experience meeting with you on their own, and doin' more of the work themselves of their own initiative. Rather than havin' a great experience that they remember a few things from, they might actually become somewhat confident and experienced. Now I reckon your class could be a marvelous starting point for a full MB experience. But it would be so sad if it were in fact da ending point. IMHO we should leave classes to their school teachers. MB counselin' is a mentoring relationship, eh? It should be something different, more personal, and more rich. Beavah (This message has been edited by Beavah)

I see the signoff on skills as being an introduction to the skill rather than a mastery of the skill. Yeh know, yeh can take training to fix that, eh? Yah, dewASM, some of those are common, but they don't have to be a big deal. 1. Yah, that's common enough. No reason why a troop can't have a workable MB counselor list, though. Or a few troops in da area collaborate on the list. 2. Somewhat common, but easy enough to deal with. Send 'em the PDF, have 'em mail it in. Training isn't required, and yeh can point 'em to the online module. 3. In this day and age? This day and age is safer than it's ever been! I honestly have less and less patience for this nonsense, and if someone really feels that way yeh don't want 'em to be working with kids anyway because they're not emotionally stable. For da rest, meetin' at a local diner or whatnot works great. But that's the scout's job to arrange anyway. 4. That's also da scout's job to arrange. No need for adults to worry about it. We don't take that learning opportunity away from kids. I think that generally speakin' the MB weekend things are sub par. Yeh have to remember what the BSA says officially that MB counseling is supposed to be, eh? To the fullest extent possible, the merit badge counseling relationship is a counselor-Scout arrangement in which the boy is not only judged on his performance of the requirements, but receives maximum benefit from the knowledge, skill, character, and personal interest of his counselor". It's hard to imagine in a one-shot class setting ever living up to the BSA's policy. How does the counselor accomplish the individual attention that's expected? How does he take time to really evaluate each boy's mastery of the skills, at least without turnin' to a boring paper and pencil test? Even an absolutely wonderful counselor can't pull that off, eh? Just not enough time. Yah, I get that it's easier for da adults, and for da kid. I just have a really hard time with us shortchangin' the kids and families that way. In good scoutin' we adults do the harder thing and really work with the lads to help 'em grow. I'm a big fan of the "there's more than one way to do things" school, eh? So it's sorta funny to be on da other side of it here. I just don't think we should encourage folks to compromise on the core character building values of the program. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, I was da fellow who got Kudu goin' eh? No intent to "bash" cub scouts on my part, just observation along da lines of NJCubScouter. I think 83Eagle's baseball analogy fails in that when yeh look at Cub Scouting, da major features of boy scouting aren't present. Even in T-ball, yeh swing at balls and run bases and field grounders. It's recognizable as baseball, with accommodations for younger fellows. The disconnect in many cub packs from boy scoutin' is that, aside from uniforms and promises, the rest isn't recognizable to youth or adults as scouting. Outing is replaced by derbies. Youth leadership/responsibility is wholly absent. Advancement is recognizable in form, but in substance is completely different. There is no patrol method. So unlike da baseball bit, where yeh recognize you're playin' ball but just getting better at it, Cub Scouting is fundamentally different from boy scouting. That disconnect means that it's possible to have kids and parents who really like cub scouting not care for real, proper boy scouting at all. Da Webelos 3 crowd Thomas and others talk about. And vice versa. Some kids and parents who tire of cub scouting's load on parents and more indoor nature might be very well suited for boy scouting . Now, I can't say whether overall havin' the two programs be so different is good or bad. There's lots of fun and growth in cub programs. It's just that da "farm team" thing doesn't work anywhere near as well as it could if things were a bit more integrated. I do sorta like dkurtenbach's notion of turnin' the tables. Yeh explain that you're the elite, traditional, high-standards program, and that it may be that their precious Johnny isn't ready for advanced placement scouting. That's OK, there are remedial programs out there to serve da needs of boys who are developmentally behind and not yet ready for independence. . Heck, these days if yeh have an admissions test and reject some applicants, yeh might get those parents clambering for your program! Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

I would compare having FOS presentations at a Blue and Gold Dinner or ECOH (if done tastefully) with soliciting people to buy Scout popcorn on the way into a grocery store. This is da argument that rude, invasive advertisers and spammers always try to make, eh? But there's a difference. A grocery is a place of public accommodation. It's a commercial enterprise. When we head to a public place of commerce, we expect advertisements and commerce. And we are free to choose to engage with the popcorn sellers, or not to engage, at will. If we choose not to engage, it doesn't cost us anything in terms of time. An award ceremony is a private ceremony. It's neither a public accommodation nor a commercial enterprise. The audience are invited guests, owed a duty of good hosting. They are not voluntary shoppers. At an award ceremony, the audience is not free to choose not to engage and go about their business, eh? They are captive. They are bound by da norms of courtesy as guests to offer their attention to their hosts. So spamming them takes advantage of their courtesy and kindness, and by being discourteous in return it breaks down those social norms. Yep, it would be discourteous even if da Eagle Scout did it, just as if he solicited for da CO or his favorite charity or money for college. All are worthy. That's not what the guests were invited for, and as hosts, we owe a duty of courtesy to our guests who are giving us their time and trusting us with it. Has our modern world of intrusive advertising done so much to undermine our traditions of hospitality and courtesy?

Yah, I think there's another thing in play as well, eh? I think da easy advancement stuff also happens when adults really don't know the subject or material well, or don't know how to teach/mentor well. When that happens, like as not they sorta go through the motions. And they feel that whether or not the lad gets da badge reflects on them, not on what the boy has learned. So they just sign, eh? That way they can point to da number of boys that have advanced or gotten the badge as their own validation. "Oh, yah, all of our boys earn First Class in a year or less" . I think we'd do everyone a favor if we just prohibited MB classes. All boys interested in a MB must establish a mentoring relationship with an adult expert in da field of at least 3 months duration and at least 1 personal meeting per month. Beavah

Yah, I think WAKWIB has ds right of it, eh? A solicitor at a social event should happen only if the host and guests of honor have freely chosen to invite him for that purpose. For scouting, that means da boys. A Scout is Courteous, eh? Da fundamental principle of courtesy is to put others before yourself. Whether it's opening the door and lettin' someone in ahead of you or honoring another's ceremony. The unit / CO likely contributed more to the lad's Eagle than the council. Certainly the SM contributed more than the DE. So if the DE is allowed to beg for his salary at a COH, then why not the SM? And the CO can give a presentation about all it's youth and charitable programs. And the organization the lad did his Eagle Project for. And da school where the ceremony is being held if not the CO. All of 'em are worthy. All of 'em would want access to such a captive audience. Of course, that's what makes it nuthin' but SPAM, eh? An unsolicited pitch conducted at another's time and expense. Yah, and that's what makes it discourteous. It puts our own needs and desires first, ahead of those of the hosts and guests of honor. It imposes on the good will of our people. It also puts ourselves ahead of all da other worthy folks who might also want access to solicit. If it's OK for us, why not for others? Ethically, we should always behave as though we'd want everyone else to behave in da same way. Life has been decent to me, and I'm a relatively generous contributor. This type of stuff just turns me off, and tends to reduce or zero my contribution, dependin' on how crass it is. So I'm not even convinced it's effective. For every $20 yeh get shoved in an envelope to make yeh go away, yeh may lose a James E. West sized donor. I know I'm an old fashioned sort, and modern courtesy is diminished from what it once was. But surely in Scouting we can try to take a stand against da trend. Startin' with ourselves. Beavah

A horse. Of course, we used one of da last of da Mastadons to plow the field. Beavah

Yah, Thomas54, I can understand da frustration. If yeh go da route you suggest, yeh might see if your membership committee will give yeh the list of lads who dropped out of cub scouting in your area. In recent years, I've come to think that the boys who drop out of cubs make better boy scouts. Their parents "get" youth independence more than da ones who have been playing den mom for 5 years, and the boys tend to be a bit more active and outdoorsy than those who stick with 5 years of PWD and rain gutter regatta. Another thought to add to the mix is to have a couple of your (well dressed, good speaker) youth leaders give a talk and slideshow about their program. You know - the Eagle scout fellows that every parent sees their kid becoming. I've always felt that those boys sell the youth led program just by breathing, eh? They're so invested in it that they can't help but doin' anything else. Beavah

It sounds as though there's a consensus that FOS presentations at Eagle COHs are verboten, but at a "regular" COH, they're fine. What's the logic there? There isn't any. Yah, seriously, just because yeh have a captive audience doesn't give yeh the right to take advantage of it in a way that's this discourteous. Now, of course there are ways that are a bit better... perhaps a brief pitch while the lads are settin' up... but I'm not fond of those either. Particularly at B&Gs, which tend to run too long with adult stuff and disorganization anyways, so the kids are completely bored by the end. Best thing for a real pro to do is to attend, participate in some minor way in the ceremony, and meet & greet da crowd. Take notes, exchange cards, build relationships. Gives yeh contacts and leads that yeh can "touch" later. Abel, if you have hard evidence of membership fraud by the DD, it's time for a sit-down with the council president and SE. A Scout is Trustworthy, eh? Soliciting funds based on fraudulent membership reports can be criminal, and can have serious consequences for the council and all of scouting. If they don't listen, tell 'em your next step is Area and Region and then the media, or have your COR approach it through the council exec board. Beavah

DC, his wife(ex) and his son are no longer members effective with recharter. Of course, they will be at the CofH on Monday night to get the boy's awards he earned at the end of 2010. and the DC will most likely be there for the wood badge beading right before the CofH. Nope. Wouldn't go there. If yeh get removed from a program yeh get removed from a program. Get expelled from high school, no walking at graduation. Da last thing in the world this troop needs is this fellow turning up and gloating that he got the SM to quit, and stirring up more trouble with all and sundry. Mail them the awards, and they can have the new troop award 'em. With the DC removed and not welcome at unit events, the SM-elect IMHO should be approached by the committee and asked to reconsider his resignation before anyone else is considered. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... Good question, Blancmange. I think yeh'd have to ask them. I asked some years back and they were very friendly, but I guess I shouldn't extend my permission to everyone else . B

Oh fer cryin' out loud. Give a call to the district chair and the council commish. If one or both of 'em aren't working to ease this fellow out, let 'em know you're going to introduce a motion at the next district committee meeting to remove the DC from his position. Call da other CORs in the area to bring 'em in on it. It should never need to go that far, council key 3 should deal with it before then. And absolutely follow Calico's advice, remove the DC and his family from the troop immediately. Yeh can't run a program under these circumstances, and your duty is always to the program for all the boys, not to any individual boy or family. IMO there's nuthin' worse for scouting than these kinds of shenanigans. And when they get this bad, yeh just have to cut bait. If someone's a friend to this DC, they should take him aside before he winds up in a really uncomfortable position. Beavah(This message has been edited by Beavah)

Yah, hmmmm.... Well, yeh know, I've been around da block a few dozen times. But every now and again, yeh hear somethin' new. Now I reckon we all think this process is odd, eh? But other things in da troop seem to be going well. Do yeh have a sense for how this process has gone in the past? Is there a reason or at least a rationale for it? One of da ways yeh can perhaps keep whatever the committe feels is good about da process and allow 'em to save face is to change it so that the boys vote on the SPL, but the SPL elect has to go before da committee for approval afterward? Or the other way around... Da SPL candidates have to present themselves before the committee to be put on the slate of candidates. That can be a nice, friendly, mentoring conversation and "interest filter". Those meetings should of course be a rubber stamp, but they might help da parents on the committee have confidence in the elected youth leaders. Good luck with it, Beavah

Second MB requirement question from yeh, chemyst. Is somethin' up? I don't counsel Personal Fitness, but I think da point of the requirement is to develop an ongoing program and to see it through. That to me is how to build the lad's character in terms of developing lifelong habits of fitness. Binge exercise for a few weeks followed by quitting followed by another binge exercise of a few weeks is a lot like da folks who go on binge diets, eh? Neither productive nor healthy. So if that's what the lad did - worked for 3-4 weeks then quit for months (allowin' his fitness level to drop), I'd say he'd have to start over and do a full continuous 12 weeks in order to learn what we want him to learn in Scouting. If he just missed a day or two, or a week while he was sick, that's a mule of a different color, though. For some exercise like weights/pullups/pushups/etc., rest/recovery periods are necessary for growth and are proper to include in a 12-week program. There should be off days and cross-training days., eh? Again, this is ultimately up to the merit badge counselor, based on his/her experience and honor. The counselor should mentor the lad appropriately so that he learns and grows from workin' on the badge, not just ticks off weeks here and there. Beavah

Yah, this is where da pressures of corporate scoutin' lead to behaviors that are embarrassing in terms of character and values. I'm not fond of soliciting funds at any award ceremony. Whether it's B&Gs or COHs or ECOHs or Silver/Ranger/QM presentations, it doesn't matter. Yah, yah, there's always a temptation because it's a "captive audience" event with high attendance. That's why we call it "temptation". Yeh show strong character and values by resisting that sort of temptation. Those ceremonies should be about the kids. Honestly, I think da practice loses as many (bigger bucks) donations as it manages to capture. Donors, especially major contributors, don't like to be ambushed at such events. It leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth. So Abel, I think it's an act of kindness to explain to the DE that it's tacky and not in keepin' with scoutin' values to solicit at an ECOH, and if that's his intention then he is not welcome. But DEs being young fellas, yeh might suggest some other time when he can come for a presentation, or yeh might counsel that if he were a wise young fella he'd use the opportunity to meet people and make contacts, which then he might follow up with at some later date. That's the way yeh really get dollars from folks, eh? By building relationships honorably, not by ambushing 'em at a kid's ceremony. Beavah

Yah, chemyst, welcome to da forums, eh? The interpretation of da merit badge requirements is left to the registered merit badge counselor, who should do his best to ensure that the boy has learned the skills and is proficient in them. "A Scout badge recognizes what a boy is able to do, it is not a reward for what he has done" accordin' to the BSA. Most of us Camping MB counselors would expect an active scout in an active program to have quite a few more days and nights of camping than the minimum 20, in order to really develop the skills to meet all da other requirements. But sometimes yeh get a lad who has done a lot of camping with other organizations or with his family. I personally would interpret the requirement to allow for only one week of Boy Scout summer camp, with the whole big canvas tent thing that they probably haven't pitched. In order to build da necessary skills for the rest of the MB requirements, they need to have set up their own nylon tent in a variety of different conditions, times of year, etc. However, like clemlaw says, if there was another week of a high adventure backpack or canoe trek that moved camp every night, I'd probably allow that. But it's up to da honor of the merit badge counselor to see that the requirements are fulfilled and the lad has really learned. Beavah

Hi yanni, welcome to da forums, eh? Scoutin' is a game to help young lads learn about character and citizenship. The Scoutmaster is the referee. So, if the Scoutmaster feels that allowin' a recall election is the best way to teach all the boys about character and citizenship, then he/she should do that. If the Scoutmaster feels that's da wrong lesson for the SPL or the boys, then he or she should say "no." Different troops establish different traditions, eh? Some have SPLs with fixed 6-month or 1-year terms. Some have SPLs that don't have fixed terms, and just serve until their successor is elected and qualified. Some have da whole troop vote, some only have the PLC vote because the SPL is the chair of the PLC, not the leader of the troop. No "rules", eh? Other than that the Scoutmaster should set thing up as best he/she can to teach the boys character and citizenship. Beavah

Nah, that's not da way things work, eh? National doesn't have any real ability to intervene in a council's management, any more than a council has to intervene in a troop's management. Yeh can call and email all yeh like, da most you're goin' to get is someone calling the SE or council president just to ask what's up. If yeh want to make a change at the council, yeh get your CORs and da members at large for your district to show up at the council annual meeting (or to call a special meeting of the council membership) and address da matter there. Yeh can vote down slates of officers, vote out members at large, replace the entire council executive board (board of directors) by takin' control of the nominating committee, rewrite your articles of incorporation, and (through da exec board) fire your SE. Da organizations that charter scout units - the churches, VFWs, etc. through their CORs are the voting members of your council corporation. As a group, they can make changes if they choose to. Beavah