Beavah

Yah, if yeh think an 8-year-old is actually seekin' surgery without that notion bein' strongly encouraged by adults in his or her life, you're out of your mind. And if yeh think any responsible professional in da medical community would consider such surgery, let me know so I can report 'em to their state medical board and have their license to practice medicine permanently revoked. Playin' into pre-pubescent notions of bein' "trans" is just irresponsible as close as I can tell from da available research. If somewhere between 80% and 98% of the children with professionally diagnosed "gender identity disorder" revert to bein' perfectly happy with their biological gender by adulthood, then lockin' a kid in with social pressure and medical procedures is just child abuse, plain and simple. We should treat all kids with understanding and compassion and support, eh? I also don't reckon anybody's in favor of burnin' Joan of Arc at the stake anymore on account of wearin' pants and feelin' called to be a soldier. Treat all people with dignity. But we should not be makin' child abuse normative. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... Where are yeh livin', @@qwazse? This strikes me as kids bein' kids, and seeking after attention in da way that happens to work for 'em. Used to be it was Rock and Roll, or long hair, or green hair. Like @@Eagledad says, I reckon they're all sharin' a drink we call Loneliness, but it's better than drinkin' alone. As I understand it, da large majority of "trans" kids discover within a few years that they're just fine with their biological gender. If that's the case, then we have to ask ourselves as a society and as scouters "What in tarnation are we doing???". Beavah

Yah, hmmm... Yah, sure, I know trans adults. Have worked with a lot of kids over da years who struggled with various things; Mrs. Beavah has worked with a lot more and in a professional role. I reckon an 8 year old often enough has a hard time makin' an informed choice about vegetables vs. ice cream. Can't say I'm aware of any well-raised child of 8 who is spendin' much time thinkin' of sex. Girls have cooties! In da years from age 8-18 friends change, personalities change, desires change, behaviors change. One thing that doesn't change is that kids make considerable effort to attract da attention of their parents or other folks in their lives, in whatever way seems to work. Beavah

Yah, hats off to yeh for a nice resolution, @@qwazse. His buddies (all from a smaller troop of older scouts who were absorbed by the large troop of younger scouts) have a few gripes. This is what struck me from all your description, eh? Boys who spend a few years as 10-13 year olds in a troop get to thinkin' that their troop is the one that does things right. That troop becomes their native culture, and just like humans of any age, our first instinct when travelin' is to compare what we find to our native culture. Mostly to point out what's wrong with the new place! Same with adult leaders transitioning to Boy Scouting and findin' out it ain't the same as Cub Scouting. They find all of da thing that are wrong first. So from afar, I'm suspecting that da real underlyin' issue is that the "absorption" of those older guys into the bigger troop is the root cause. Especially since yeh say the bigger troop was younger in age. Gotta get the lads to move from what the adults in the new troop are doin' "wrong" to an attitude of "I'm in a place that's different, what can I do to help?" If yeh succeed, it's a good lesson and habit for life. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... It's nice theory, but it mostly doesn't work in practice. Whether it's G2SS or da requirements for BSA or council high adventure programs, there are age limits, eh? So a gang of 11-year-olds can't always do what a gang of high schoolers can do. Lots of good reasons for that, too. Practically speakin', if it's paddle a mess of miles across a lake to go camp, a gang of experienced high school scouts will have no trouble. A mixed age patrol will be able to do it, with da stronger older lads helpin' out the younger fellows who are learnin'. They'll have challenges, but the challenges will allow da younger lads to grow as scouts and da older lads to grow as leaders. Put a mess of 10 and 11-year-olds together and odds are it becomes a mess. Yeh need perfect weather, and lots of prep, and an unusual group. Add some wind and the lads get blown about. Some aren't up to the distance, and da rest don't have the reserves to pull 'em along. Add some rain and yeh get more issues. Tired-and-grumpy leads to patrol collapse or meanness or fights. All together yeh have a set of real safety issues, as the young guys can't always manage rightin' a flipped canoe, or don't always mind fire safety when tired, etc. Same sorts of things with backpackin', or winter campin', or high-adventure bikin', or whatever. And when a lad gets tired and grumpy, or hurt, or blown across a lake in the wrong direction, then yeh have parents and others complainin', or kids droppin' out, or folks even removin' the Scoutmaster because of lack of confidence in his judgment. The way yeh get young lads on real adventures is to use the older lads as friends and supporters and leaders, eh? Yeh can sort of do that in a guided-tour school kind of way with a TG and Instructor, or yeh can do it a more natural way as a Patrol. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... I reckon we all knew it was comin', eh? I really feel for the child. It's hard enough to be a kid. Harder still to be a kid whose behavior is different. When yeh add in parents and others behavin' bizarrely because of their own agendas, da anchors are gone and the child's cast adrift. Functional child abuse, regardless of the legal definition. Used to be we accepted tomboys as what they are, eh? Fun, adventurous girls. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... I think da problem may be that yeh don't understand what's really fun for teenagers. Yeh seem to think "fun" involves hangin' with friends and doin' what yeh want to do. I think that's wrong. Teenagers by and large want to be part of something, not just hang out. They want to be seen as adult - as capable, as good at something. They'll spend hours beatin' their head against a video game level to get good at it. They'll spend hours tryin' to master a skateboard trick. Their brains are wired to be attracted to learnin'. They thrive on da feeling of developing real confidence. That's FUN! Our problem as adults is that we think gettin' good at something means being lectured at and goin' through a "program" or "class." In that case, "fun" is what yeh do when you're not bein' made to sit in a class. It's our hangup, not theirs. That's why Scoutin' works so well, eh? When yeh have a lad who has time to get good at something, and become responsible, and lead or teach others resultin' in confidence and recognition, that IS fun! Patrols, youth leadership, independence outdoors - all those things capitalize on da fun of learning and gettin' good at stuff. Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... I'll certainly agree that those two ways aren't da right way to do it, eh? That's just lazy adults bringin' up kids to be lazy. Seems like lots of times it's also adults who don't have much experience, either with the topic (so they have to rely on da books and worksheets for knowledge) or workin' with kids (so they rely on school procedures for lack of real-world youth mentoring). For most of da history of mankind, boys learned how to do things by apprenticeship. That's the natural way to learn, eh? That's what MB counseling should be like, I reckon, at least in a miniature way. Or, to quote da official BSA policy: "To the fullest extent possible, the merit badge counseling relationship is a counselor-Scout arrangement in which the boy is not only judged on his performance of the requirements, but receives maximum benefit from the knowledge, skill, character, and personal interest of his counselor." So if da counselor is just checkin' off the requirements, we're doin' it wrong. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... To my mind, at this size a troop should either be one patrol or two mixed-age patrols, eh? So instead of havin' a young/old divide, yeh have two patrols where there are a pair of older scout leaders and instructors, and a second-year scout or two, and a first year scout or two. Patrol competitions then become possible, harder outings supported by da strength of older scouts become possible, and real servant leadership by the older lads becomes possible. Bein' a PL becomes a cool thing that older, competent boys do rather than a popularity contest among same-age peers. In that case, da 4 older lads become a PLC and work together on troop trips, pushin' each of their patrols to be the best (Go Goats!!!). They also can run some PLC-only trips if they want for some older boy adventures. Plus, that way the older lads are gettin' da POR/leadership opportunities they need for rank advancement. I don't think yeh need to do da SPL thing at this size. Wait until yeh get to 3-5 patrols and the boys decide they need someone to organize da PLC. Beavah

Yah, sure it is. Sellin' popcorn is helpin' the pack go! Every boy should be doin' his best to do his duty to help the pack go! Helpin' the pack go is part of how we teach citizenship, eh? Yeh contribute time to improvin' your community because that's what good citizens do, not because yeh expect to get paid for it. For my part, I'm glad da BSA is finally squeezin' out this notion. Aside from bein' not particularly kosher from a legal perspective, I think it works against our Aims, eh? Just one old furry fellow's opinion, anyway. That havin' been said, there's nothin' that says a pack can't choose to do reduced dues for families with 2nd or 3rd or 4th kids in da program, eh? That sort of thing bein' covered out of general fundraising as a policy to support families is fine. Even fine to suggest "stretch" goals for popcorn or whatnot, as long as it's not quid pro quo. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... Let me see if I can echo @@CalicoPenn here a bit. Puttin' on my teenage girl hat... Ugh! @@Plugging Away is driving me crazy. I love Venturing, but the adults all come from this little-kid Boy Scouts thing which they claim is youth run, but is really like this lame middle school thing. Why can't they realize we're not little kids like the Boy Scouts. We've got this! We can do it. We want to do it. It's so much more empowering when as crew President I can just work out the details with my friends over SnapChat. We get things done and have fun doing it, without all this blah blah blah talk talk talk micromanagement and paperwork that the adults seem to love. I wish they'd figure out that paperwork is dead to our generation. It went out in the 90s. I learn so much when I get to do things my own way, even when I make mistakes. And I don't need them to tell me I've made a mistake and then "discuss" it with me! Aargh! Do they think I'm stupid? It's SO condescending. Then they think I'm the one being rude when I get snippy. They would never micromanage and be so picky and condescending to another adult. It's like they're entitled to be rude. Every time they do that I just want to stop caring and let them take over. It's not like I can't just go do some of this stuff with my friends without them. Yeah, I know they're good people, and we can do more stuff with a little help and support. I really love Venturing. I just wish they'd get a clue and stop snip-snip-snip at us all the time. Don't they get that every time they do that it's like Sapp! all the energy goes out of things. Just sucked out. But when they trust us and just let us do things our way it's like Zapp!! It's so empowering! [teenage girl hat off] Hope that helps. Beavah

Yah, they won't let you. New troop should have no problem though, eh? I reckon most new troops will accept da blue card and take care of things for yeh. Same goes for gettin' your son badges and awarding at their next Court of Honor. The thing yeh need to do up front as you're lookin' for a new troop is to ask about this sort of thing, eh? Troops have different styles and different approaches to the Advancement game. You're clearly lookin' for a rapid-advancement / advancement-focused sort of style that is willin' to deal with badges comin' fast and furious on the quest for 136. That's not every troop, eh? So if yeh want to find a good fit, yeh need to be up-front in your inquiries. Yah, probably OK, but if there's an opportunity to do so I'd encourage your boy to talk to the new Scoutmaster first and pick up a card from the new troop. Just easier and clearer all around, plus a good opportunity for da SM and your son to start things off on the right foot. Beavah

Yah, as far as I know da blue cards don't matter to a typical scout shop. Sales of restricted items depend on da ScoutNet record, as updated by advancement report forms from the troop. Beavah

Yah, hmmmm... @@cchoat missed da next part, eh? None of this changes da circumstances, eh? If yeh come in as a parent and start quotin' BSA texts at people yeh might find that yeh are no longer welcome. Courtesy in the face of discourtesy, eh? That's the ticket, and the example to set for your son. I can't for da life of me figure out why a Scoutmaster is havin' problems after the fact if he signed off on blue cards for da MB Day in the first place, unless he really thinks that cheatin' is going on. This is somethin' that gifted lads have to deal with from time to time as well, sad to say. If yeh do too well, folks start to get suspicious. Remember da movie Stand and Deliver? So we're back to lettin' your son navigate this to learn some valuable social and other skills that will be useful in his life, or findin' a different program. Dependin' on how active a volunteer yeh are and how your relationship is with da Committee or Advancement Chairs, yeh can also approach them in a friendly way with your concerns. Personally, I'm not a fan of da Merit Badge Day thing. If yeh have a gifted lad, I think he'd be better served by quality, not quantity. He should be findin' real counselors and working hard beyond just da requirements, in keepin' with his talent. No excuse for him not learnin' a topic so well that he knocks the socks off his troop and is ready to teach/lead in those areas. Those to whom much is given, much is expected, eh? Beavah

Yah, hmmm... Thanks for da additional information, @@NobodyReally. Some troops are pretty advancement-focused, some less advancement-focused. Sounds like yeh have a less advancement-focused troop and a very advancement-focused youth (and dad, perhaps). That's when yeh either look for a better fit program, or yeh use it as a learning experience for your son and let him negotiate da process as @@qwazse suggests. Lots of time in his future school and life da path won't be all laid out for him with superiors ready to assist. Pushin' through obstacles and perceptions can be a good lesson for a lad who is a high achiever. Your call, though. I will say I'm not fond of da "fraud" talk to the troop thing. That's bad pool in my book. Yeh deal with lads individually, and reprimand in private if that's called for. At the same time, the point of a badge is that the boy is able to do things, eh? When a lad earns a First Aid badge, we expect that he'll be able to actually do first aid 3 months later when a situation suddenly arises with no notice. Kids shouldn't be ambushed by obnoxious adults, but they should be confident in their skills. That's why each lad is supposed to be tested individually on all da requirements for a badge, which often can't happen at a typical MB day. Sounds to me like a troop that's become a bit comfortable with mediocrity, and is a bit taken aback by your son's go-get-em attitude. How do you / your son feel about da rest of the program? Beavah

Hello @@NobodyReally! Welcome to da forums. Sounds like a bit of a disconnect between you and your son's troop, eh? First thing to remember is that Boy Scouts isn't quite like Cub Scouts, where the lads spend most of their time in a group workin' together on awards. Advancement Method is only 1/8 of Boy Scoutin', and it's meant to be done in a way that's integrated with da rest of da program. Advancement is like a suntan. It's what yeh get from being outdoors with your patrol doin' things with your troop. That's where all the real learnin' and character development happen. The BSA's policy is that every lad should get the full benefit of the personal attention, skill, mentoring, etc. of a counselor. That's a hard thing to do in a Merit Badge Day with a bunch of other boys. So while Merit Badge days and group instruction aren't forbidden in da BSA, they're not exactly encouraged either. Most MBs aren't really amenable to a Saturday morning treatment, and it's awfully hard for a MBC running a "class" to really check each lad individually on all the requirements. So a lot of active Scouters think that MB days cheat the boys out of the best learning experience, and in some cases they just cheat. Some troops don't allow 'em at all. Per a rule change a couple of years ago that's technically not kosher any more, but it remains the reality. If yeh want to be a scout in those troops, yeh do Merit Badges the regular way. Lots of good troops allow 'em for some things like the rare/unique badges, but they want the more common badges to be done actively in da course of their program. Some troops are open season, which is da current BSA recommendation, sort of. The Scoutmaster is permitted to ask a boy questions about the badge class, the work he did, and how he completed the badge, and to refuse to award the badge if it becomes obvious that da requirements clearly could not have been met in such a setting. This should be a friendly discussion about Scout Spirit though, eh? Not an inquisition. Sometimes such conversations aren't about the boy and the badge at all, but rather to give feedback to the district or council running da MB event. What's really goin' on here seems to be a disconnect between your expectations and the way your son's troop runs. In that, yeh have a choice to either stay with that program or leave and find a troop that's more into badges and badge days, maybe where Advancement makes up more than 1/8 of da program. I'd defer to your son on that. If he does decide to stay, then I reckon it's best to go along with the troop's culture on merit badges. Yeh might find out that while your son racks up less bling, he actually learns more and becomes more confident. Can I ask how your son is doin' rank-wise, and in other ways like outdoor skills and friendships in his patrol and whatnot? Sometimes when a troop says that a lad is doin' too many badges what they're really sayin' is that he needs to be spendin' more time on da other 7/8 of Scouting in order to be well-rounded and get the most out of the program. Consider that as a possibility as well. Good luck with it! Beavah

Yah, hmmm... I think I'm with @@Zaphod. A person who gives a cash donation to a BSA unit is intendin' the donation to go to support that unit. Turnin' around and givin' da entire donation to military popcorn (is there a chronic popcorn shortage in our armed forces?) is arguably violatin' the donor's intent. Yeh have at least a moral obligation to disclose that's what yeh intend to do with the money, so the donor can make an informed decision on whether to give his/her hard-earned cash to send popcorn to the military. I think yeh have to put it in the unit treasury. If there's a unit project to do care packages for the military, then yeh can use treasury funds (and a portion of the donation) for that, though I reckon most units would fund-raise separately for the care package contents. If you're representin' to the donor that they're giving to your unit for Scouting, then yeh are honor-bound to accept it and use it for Scoutin'. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... I'm firmly with @@CalicoPenn. All Courts of Honor are troop events, eh? They should be hosted by da troop, and organized and run by da PLC. The Eagle(s) and family(s) are honored guests. I reckon it just ain't courteous for us to make our honored guests do the work and pay for the meal. Much like school graduation or award ceremonies, eh? They're run by the school. Black belt award ceremonies? Run by the dojo. In fact, I can't think of any organization that expects da folks being honored to pay for or plan their own award ceremony. I reckon there are few good, sensible Scoutin' reasons for this, eh? First is Uniform Method. We use uniforms in part to show we're part of a team, and in part to show that every lad is an equal part of da team. The problem with da parent-run Wedding Banquet Eagle thing is that it breaks this lesson and tradition for our highest honor. Families that are more well-to-do can hire da local band and finish with fireworks (yah, I've seen this!), leavin' da family that scraped and saved and pinched for Scoutin' to not want a ceremony (seen this, too). Folks are pretty private about family finances, eh? In my experience, it's hard for da unit leaders to really know. I just think it's a better example and better lesson for da Eagle Award to celebrate what we have in common, rather than highlight our differences, eh? Second reason is that these adult-directed, adult-run things tend to be a bit awful for the lads. Hype and hoopla and speechifyin' and all the rest. Can't imagine why we think the boys care about such stuff. Scoutin' should be youth-run to the end, eh? Our capstone award should reflect that. Da boy-run events I find much more enjoyable and meaningful. Sometimes roasts of da Eagle, sometimes campfires and reflections, sometimes hilarious skits. I reckon s'mores and dutch oven cobbler belong at an ECOH a lot more than store-bought sheet cake. Let da families do an after-party if they want, or combine it with a graduation party. Keep da ECOH a real Scoutin' event. Just MHO. Beavah (who reckons he's been to way too many Weddin' Banquet foorahs this year)

Yah, hmmm... I'm wonderin' why yeh think state health regulations apply to unit campin' at all, @@TAHAWK. Large events requirin' special permitting on public land, like a jamboree... perhaps. Commercial sale of food as part of fundraisin', like running a food booth at a county fair, sure. Otherwise not really. Da three-tub method for heavyweight car campin' to my mind is usually associated with Troop Method camping. For Patrol Method where yeh have 4-8 kids, other options seem more appropriate and consistent with LNT. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... Welcome @@Hershey. Thanks for supportin' your son and his scouting program. Is there some rush in da family for gettin' advancement on a schedule? Sometimes lads are tryin' to beat an older brother's time-to-rank or somethin' similar. Is he gettin' really close to 17.5 years old? Seems like he's comin' along just fine. We're tryin' to teach life lessons in Scouting, eh? One of the life lessons that I think is a good one is that yeh learn things for more than just a test. Yeh learn 'em because yeh might need to actually know them. If spendin' a few extra days re-learning a knot helps teach your son that lesson before you pay a lot of $$$ for college, then I reckon it's a few days well spent. I wouldn't be concerned. What you're goin' to find next on the road to Eagle is that there are a lot of hoops and paperwork and delays while registrars process forms and district people meet and such. A wise troop introduces a little bit of that at Star and Life to help the boy Be Prepared. Beavah

Yah, hmmm.... This is a piece of legislative-advocacy journalism. More smoke than fire, I reckon. The report says da SE made a statement published in the newspaper way back in 2014 that reported the ASMs behavior at some length. Hard to imagine that he didn't notify law enforcement at the time unless he was aware da parents already had made that notification. Or the local prosecutor could just read his morning newspaper, eh? Certainly they seem to have begun pursuin' a case right away. Da only real question is the ASM who received the initial report from the lad. Given the close timing, it may easily be that he reported to da SE, SM, COR, etc. and that things were in process at various levels. Hard to say. He may also have decided a guy who is asleep whose arm brushes against a sleeping boy's fully clothed groin hasn't done anything wrong. Da reality is that these sorts of allegations in real life take folks by surprise, usually come across as a bit ambiguous, and involve adults whom we trust and are friends with. Unless a person is a professional who has experience in da area, it's a lot to work through. I'm not convinced that da right answer is to criminalize that volunteer. Generally speakin' for that reason I'm not hugely fond of makin' non-professionals mandatory reporters. Doctors, nurses, school teachers and others with professional trainin' and state licensure strikes the right balance. Their reports as professionals can be relied on by law enforcement not to be capricious, and we have some rationale for holdin' 'em to criminal penalties for a failure to do their professional duty. When we make every untrained Tom, Dick, and Harriet a mandatory reporter yeh get da Nosy Neighbor reportin' people for lettin' their kid stand in the rain at the bus stop for 5 minutes. It's a waste of resources at best, a severe disruption of healthy families at worst. Yeh also criminalize otherwise decent and well-meaning people who are just caught in da ambiguity of many of these cases. Beavah

Yah, hmmm... @@thrifty, thanks for comin' to the Forums! I highlighted this comment of yours just so yeh could see it by itself and think about it a bit. "We" shouldn't be doin' Merit Badges, eh? HE should. And if your own peace of mind is affected by what your almost-teenaged son does or doesn't do, you're goin' to be needin' heavy doses of Xanax within a few years. So will he! Just a thought. Informationally, some MBs are low-hanging fruit for younger boys, while other MBs offer more of a challenge for high schoolers. Game Design MB is a harder one, eh? Lots of younger boys end up with partials that they don't complete. What you're seein' is normal. Give your son some space and he'll come back around on it in a couple of years when it's right for him. Or not. Could be Robotics instead by then. Beavah

Yah, hmmmm... Welcome, @@Phrogger. Simple fact is that at age 10 he isn't eligible to be a Boy Scout. Too much too soon, eh? It can be hard for 11-year-olds who are entering into 6th grade their first year. I think there's nuthin' to be gained by pushing your son to stay in if he wants to quit so much that he's makin' himself sick before meetings. I was in his place, once. Was pushed by my parents into swim lessons. I was actually OK in the water, so I ended up in a YMCA group with older kids. I didn't know 'em, and older kids were scary. I didn't really know the YMCA. I used to "get sick" every Thursday in school so I wouldn't have to go. Fast forward a year or two and I'm in the advanced swim classes at summer camp way ahead of my peers and doin' fine. Sometimes what is required is just tincture of time. I'll tell yeh, I don't think there's anything that either my parents or da YMCA instructor could have done to help me. I just needed some time growin' up to get comfortable. I'd recommend yeh fall back to the Cub program yeh both enjoyed and run a real Webelos year as a family. Have him invite a few friends from school, perhaps. Let him be the Big Man of the Pack helpin' the other dens for a year. I think that's a lot more likely to be successful than shoppin' and hoppin' around to another troop at this point. Sometimes yeh just have to wait on biology. In the mean time, work with him on fun fitness stuff, eh? Not push-ups, but lots of activity! It really helps first year Boy Scouts if they're fit enough to keep up. Do some adventurous camping at his pace, where he can be successful and build confidence. If he arrives at a troop next summer bein' strong and confident and able to care for himself on a bad-weather campout, there won't be anything stoppin' him. And yah, the lad should go to summer camp next year for sure. It really is where new boys become part of the gang. Beavah

Yah, @@SouthPoleScout, I hear yeh. Sometimes we chase da fads a bit, eh? Remember "Soccer & Scouting"? Or BSA Varsity Teams? I'm an old curmudgeon and remember Baden-Powell's admonition that Scouting should never "trench upon the work of the schools". Partly because we don't have da expertise, eh? And partly because boys aren't clamoring for more school. We can't compete with First Robotics; not sure why we'd waste resources tryin'. First Robotics can't compete with us in da outdoors and citizenship area. Better to be partners than competitors. At da same time, I reckon a lot of boys found their future career or hobby through the MB program. We're pretty good at connectin' geeky lads with HAM radio and rockets and pinewood-car-design. I've taken Aviation MB scouts out flyin' since we developed da EAA Young Eagles program, and I know at least a few found aviation careers. In its own way, Scoutin' has been on da forefront of the practical, non-school science, engineering and technology stuff (math not so much). That's boy-stuff, eh? We should keep doin' that, drawin' on partners. Can we do somethin' more focused? I dunno. Career Exploring has always been hit-or-miss, eh? We've done OK when it comes to action-oriented posts like da Law Enforcement or Fire/EMS groups. Not so well when it comes to other career areas because of what yeh point out... there's other groups doin' it better. STEM Scouts is a pilot, runnin' mostly in Tennessee under the direct supervision of da folks who are developin' it. They're now tryin' to scale it to pilot sites in different parts of da country. That seems to be slow-goin', so it remains to be seen whether STEM scouts will have legs when it gets a bit further away from its creators. Who knows? Yeh could imagine a more tech-focused youth program gainin' some traction,. We should try these things out as long as they don't detract from our traditional programs, though I'm still not convinced it gets to our character/citizenship goals. The key will be whether yeh can get da volunteers and resources to run it. Science equipment is more expensive than a dutch oven, eh? Beavah

Why wait? They are plannin' weekend trips on their own, right? Seein' as how they're Boy Scouts. This is just like a weekend trip, only bigger! What part of da Midwest are yeh in, mate, and how far are yeh willin' to travel? Are yeh really lookin' for full outfitter support (prepackaged guided tour/trip) or are yeh willin' to mix it up at least a bit? Does it have to be a BSA camp program? Yeh can bike across Iowa with RAGBRAI. Yeh can go Sea Kayakin' the Apostle Islands or backpackin' out on Isle Royale. Yeh can look for Great Lakes sailing opportunities or a long cruise with da Sea Scouts. Yeh can canoe or canoe-bike da upper Mississippi. Yeh can go hiking and climbing in southern Illinois . Yeh can volunteer and camp on da field of the Oshkosh AirVenture. We're Scouts, eh? Da world is our playground! Happy to try to point yeh to more resources if yeh give us a bit more to go on. Beavah