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@iguanita, welcome to the forums! Yes and no. Everything is more fun with a buddy anyway. But ... 1) His sailing camp might have a merit badge counselor on staff, and there just might be another scout at camp (it happens). So, he should really try to see if he can earn his MB from someone at sailing camp. That being said ... if the troop's summer camp has sailboats and he likes to sail, but the only way a scout can check out a sailboat is if he is taking the merit badge, he might just want to sign up for fun. I had one scout take Small Boat Sailing three years in a row. Never earned Eagle, but had lots of fun. 2) This depends on the Hiking MB counselor. Ideally the scout and a buddy meet with a counselor, talk about the hikes they are planning to make. Then, they implement those plans upon review with the scoutmaster. Those plans may be with the buddy, a different buddy, the scout's patrol, or the scout's family. The requirement doesn't really say who the hike should be with. (But, it is definitely more fun to do them with another scout or a patrol.) It is highly unlikely that the MB counselor will join you on any of those hikes. So, in both cases the instruction is with the buddy. But the actual doing of the requirements is on the scout.

Not harder for the scout who, 5 years straight, "forgets" to check in at the aquatics area to round out that last requirement his swimming MB partial.

I think it has to do with age. Younger scouts can easily earn swimming at year 1 or 2 at camp. Most are at the pool all the time at that age, so parents really want them to have that skill down. I remember at that age hiking and cycling were rough. En.Vi.Sci has been around for a lot longer. Most camps have cabins chock full teaching aids for it. I loved Lifesaving because I was also trying to advance in ARC classes at that age. And those classes provided my first real physical challenge that I thought I could overcome. My boys were indifferent about it. One did Lifesaving, the other (because he never completed swimming early on) did E. Prep.

Yep, @mashmaster. it's only a matter of the skipper being amenable to processing blue cards. The only down side, I imagine, is if half the crew can be awarded MB's because they were in Scouts BSA, and half can't, and that bothers the youth. I've never known anything like that to bother youth. But, it's a big country.

I detailed why camp was good for me, because, if someone else would feel refreshed by the same things that refreshed me, it might be good for them too, as it was for me. It might just be the smart thing to do. Do we really want a potential ASM to miss out on spending a lot of time fishing, meeting staff, getting to know troop leadership, taking any available adult training, landing a bullseye when the archery range is free, hiking, training for the mile swim, helping some other troops' first years learn to swim, fishing ... just because he's afraid of his son's motivation? There is a false dichotomy of "keeping distance" and "camping with your son". Camp is not a 4x4 cell. Parents often have an impression that camping with a troop will be like cub resident camp. That if you're there, you'll be assign to tag along with your son or his patrol. Nothing could be further from the truth. Now, for the parent who can't help himself and wants to stay on his boy's case constantly, that's a culture shock. But for the parent who's been waiting for the boy to really take off on his own, it's a rewarding thing to see. But if it helps, I'll qualify my opinion: Talk to the kid. Ask "Are you doing this just to please your folks?" If he replies "Don't be stupid, Dad!" Then your idea is likely dumb.

Yep, this is one of those situations where the UC could definitely help ... even if it's by showing up with a half-dozen frayed ropes asking, "Hey, since I saw that you learned this ..." Meanwhile pull the SM/ASM aside and ask if the girls told them their desired agenda for the next two meetings and next event. (In other words, ask what the adults learned from those SMC's.) Most of the Scout Rank requirements would be demonstrated in those 1st 15 minutes. So, that's when he needs to be there. If thinks aren't looking sharp, he could also drop that as a goal going forward. I would be slow to call out "high-speed low-drag" until I saw that scouts weren't remembering basic things like Oath, Law, square-knots, and their patrol yell.

I would tell the CO, that if the $1000 is becoming a burden, they should keep it. Then, I would suggest that they should cut a deal with the scouts (and any other group) that for each month when that group volunteers, $85 will go to the to their treasury. Is only $85 a night worth it to the committee? It depends. Are there other advantages to getting scouts "front and center" in uniform in public slinging burgers and sausage once a month? Can the scouts serving get a free meal? Are you just a Pack? Or, Pack + Troop + Crew? If my crew were sponsored by this CO, I might take them up on it. We'd arrange to have our officers' meeting that night, pass out recruiting flyers, and maybe even flash a slide show of recent activities.

One of the first times my SM volunteered to come to a crew event with me, he volunteered to transport ... thinking that he'd wind up with a car full of the boys ... since they basically knew the drill and he was, after all, their SM. (As you might guess already, I'm not to map out these details in advance.) Well, sure enough, come departure time (which involved the complexity of roof-top carriers, etc ...), the boys piled in my car and the girls in his! The terrified look on his face was one of those precious crew advisor moments that will stay with me forever. It wound up being one of his better four hour drives to camp. The young women were truly great, as I knew they would be. I would never let YPT hype rob us of what is right and good in the world.

Crossover dog-and-pony shows are nice, but what really will be net positives for O/A? I think most will involve broader troop issues ... Allow the use of sash-racks. (I.e., everyone stop griping at scouts folding sashes over their belts.) Make sure 1st Class means skill mastery. Only hold elections at camp. Usually by day 2 the younger scouts can pick the roses from the thorns. Do serious Indian Lore at camp. That includes inviting Native Americans to join the camp staff. Leverage the opening to female ordeals to talk about women, culture, and family. Look for your troop's O/A rep at roundtable (or wherever your chapter meets). If he's not there, let him know your troop isn't getting the representation it deserves.

That's new. Thanks T-Bird! There you have it, Mash. Loophole closed.

Timing oneself is a good idea. But, if many of the new scouts are 16 year old venturers, camp staff, or girl scouts, I would suggest that "kid factor" will be less than 1. They are very efficient at making sure everyone is on the same page. Keep in mind that "Group Identity" is a method of venturing. Most folks relate that to uniforming. But in application it comes down to making sure everyone knows the ideals and by-laws of the group. As time goes on, and older scouts get busy doing other things, and younger scouts have more interest adventure and fellowship than advancement, then you get that lag that we normally see in most crossovers.

Is that distinction fading? Or is one arm of the organization not aware of the other? Continue the discussion here:

I do agree with you that the SM went overboard on the "this is how it's gonna be" line. With any sudden influx of members (like I said, I've been in the middle of three) a little humility goes a long way. He would have been better to admit, "We're gonna have to flex, this is our plan A, we think it will work, but we're open to improvement." As to the funds. When I was Advising my crew, I used separate accounts because there were some wannabe watchdogs who feared troop funds being drained. That kept the peace, but towards the end, the troop could have used those crew surpluses. Not the other way around. So, it took a while to get everyone settled on writing them the check that closed the crew account. Chances are if these new scouts are all they're cracked up to be, they'll be putting in their share of time at the sales tables -- especially if some of the parents are wary to join that fundraiser. I suspect these girls are going to need a little autonomy to get down the advancement trail like they want. So, for that reason alone, I'd have them use their own bank account. But, even there, the troop treasurer may have preferred to operate in a consolidated fashion at least for now.

So, you think I should take the time to let every parent know that if there were girls interested in starting a unit, the CO would let them do it under the same roof as ours? Even if there aren't any such girls? Isn't that a form of stirring up hype, where poor @mashmaster want's it to settle down? Should I also let them know that we'd take on boys from outside our district if they'd ask? If immigrants/refugees settled here, we'd welcome their boys? That we'll start a crew up again as soon as a few of the boys and their girlfreinds ask? What other hypotheticals should I disclose? And then, if I were a parent, what would I do with that information? Go find a troop who's CO solemnly swears they won't let membership scenario X happen - at least until my kid ages out? Does beascout have a special color pin for units like that? In the past year, the only scheme of mine that I made sure everyone knew about was World Scout Jamboree ... because 1) I thought it was cool, 2) I wanted to make sure interested scouts didn't miss out, 3) I made a solid commitment and wanted fellow scouters (both Advisors and SM's) know that my leadership time would be spread a little thin for a while. For anything else where only the 1st criteria was met, you would have had to be around a campfire with me to hear about it.

We've had similar blind-sides. When the SM invited a half-dozen boys from outside the school district joined our troop, we eventually had to deal with splits and later re-mergers. Then, when our troop merged, there was a "deal" on the table that the merged troop would move to the older CO. The problem was that the SM (from the newer troop) had a beef with that COR. So it didn't happen. The older boys (most of whom were in the older CO) basically had to suck it up. Some of the parents of older boys were bothered, and it took the leadership of the older troop to settle them down. This happened in a matter of weeks. Both scenarios felt like an arranged marriage (which actually had more good moments than bad, from my perspective). Throughout both, we were unapologetic to the older scouts. Mentoring this next generation cheerfully was on them. Part of life is adapting to new situations. And little things like who's number was official was not something to cry over. I agree that the adult leadership requirements make this linked troop model tough to implement. But, I can't imagine that changing an SM's resolve. From their perspective they are teaching a scout to be courteous. When a half dozen youth show up at your door wanting to learn how to hike and camp independently with their mates, you do everything (not the bare minimum) to help them. Should the troop have given parents the "heads up" that they would be open to a girls unit sharing facilities and equipment? Maybe. But if they did and that those half dozen girls didn't materialize (as happened in my case), that would have been a lot of drama over a hypothetical.

I think so. I said nothing disparaging of Mom's opinion of these new scouts taking up meeting space. But, I am wondering how else she would expect things to happen. It's important for me to know because I'm one of the guys who shows up with the next new program everywhere I go. (Believe it or not, scouting isn't the only organization that wants to use a sponsor's space and generates hype.) So, what parents expect when it comes to organizational pivots like this is good to know. With regards to my experience with Scouts BSA, I floated the concept by our COR and IH (and a separate COR as well) last year to see what they thought about it. I then discretely asked key parents in our community about their interest. Why? Because I didn't want to 1) get parents talking about pure speculation, and 2) get kid's hopes up before having them dashed. There was no interest. So I put it on the back burner. But, if something were to come together, it would probably only gone public about a month before launch. That's still the case. If six girls walk up to my door and want to hike and camp independently with their mates, I'm probably gonna roll with that and register a charter ASAP. Most parents won't know until they see them around the CO.

Not the same at all. The boys from across the tracks were far more disruptive to our troop and crew (in good and bad ways) than the girls from "our side."

@Mom2Scout, welcome to the forums! What makes you think the CO/SMs should ask the parents? I mean, if a half dozen boys from the next neighborhood over wanted to join the troop all of a sudden, that could change the troop dynamic. Would you expect them to discuss that with the parents? Or, would you expect them to bring the boys on board, then adjust leadership as necessary?

Speaking of "up until the 70s" wishful thinking ... especially when it comes to professionals who never went through the program ... a lot of this stress would be relieved with the removal of agism. Not getting those skills down? No worries, come back as an ASM and SM and knock out those Star/Life/Eagle requirements that you weren't able to complete as a kid. Your PhD not impressing boots-on-the ground scouters? No worries, spend a year serving a unit and become the first class scout you were always meant to be. Take the lid off the pressure cooker, then we can celebrate (instead of look askance at) the 12 year old who nails down those skills and racks up bling!

@tpolly, welcome to the forums and thanks in advance for all you'll do for the youth! Personally, I think staying away is a dumb idea. I landed in camp with Son #1 and spent a lot of time fishing, meeting staff, getting to know our troop leadership, taking any available adult training, landing a bullseye when the archery range was free, hiking, training for the mile swim, helping some other troops' first years learn to swim, fishing. I would line up at the payphone (!) to chat with Mrs. Q every other day or so, and she would ask how the boy was and I would say, "I saw him moving, looked like he had a smile under the dirt on his face. ... You should see the bass in this lake! ..." It helped that I was an ASM when I turned 18, a decade earlier, so I kinda knew the drill. Regardless, if you are interested in being an ASM, you need to get training. And the best training you can get is fishing with meeting leaders from other troops and enjoying afternoon naps consecutive days.

So, you're a teacher. If a student opens the book, during class, finds the answer to your question, and rattles it off right there, does he/she know the material? Can you strike that question off of your next quiz because the student answered it and the class was present to hear it? So, yeah ... a kid will need to demonstrate a skill more than once, with confidence, every time. For most, that takes a week. For some, that can take a while. I am asking scouts to tie their knots, now, next week, and two months from now. I'm asking them to be able to swim in a strong manner ASAP, the week after, and the month after. My PL's need to sign off when they are confident that that boy can be counted on for that skill. On some level, First Class is more important than Eagle. I want all my scouts to be first class ... all the time.

Welcome to the forums @NickWeaver! Here's an old-school strategy: ask your classmates if they or anybody they know is in boy scouts or venturing. Then talk to those friends (or friends of friends, or enemies of friends, whatever) about when their troop/crew meets. Obviously if you happen to be someplace where you see a troop doing a service project or other activity, go up and ask them for info. Talking to strangers ... almost as fun as the internet, twice as rewarding.

Well, if ASAP is what you need. You could create tags for your topics. Say, "Start-up", "Scouts BSA", "Girls", and "Troop". File under open program, council relations, or whatever. Most of what you all have discussed so far applies to boys' troops too. The reason why I suggest this is that somewhere there is a venturing forum that us crew advisors rarely use. Why? Because most of what we really need to know is on the other forums. I mean, venturing is special, but not that special.

Keep the BS out of the BSA, maximize smiles. The important thing is to make sure youth protection minimums are maintained. Should be straightforward since you have den moms.

It's nice to know that you all in your dress whites have the same problems as us lowly tan-shirts.