qwazse

Most conservancy lands and hiking trails leave that sort of room if they allow overnight camping at all. Even farmer's lots are big enough for the adults to camp at a distance from the boys. For the sake of "leave no trace" I encourage my youth to camp in random clusters. Rows and grids leave footprints that can show up on arial photographs days after camp is broken. So, the adults would be in one "cluster", the youth would be in another cluster (or clusters, if there are more than one) further down the trail/valley/tree break. My personal preference is to pitch my tent up hill from the youth so I can see all clusters. My other chaperon sets up on the opposite side of the valley (if it's not more than 200 yards wide). This is the ideal. Obviously, we adjust accordingly for each site.

Sounds like you need to become a crew advisor just to balance it all out! (jk) There will come a point where one of your units could benefit from one of those trained leaders stepping to the fore. They've seen your example, give them a chance to follow it in a year or so. This situation is not unique to urban areas. We all wind up wearing multiple hats. The challenge is to make sure they are the ones that suit our gifts and talents. I don't like "Eagle mills", but the notion of "Scouter mills" appeals to me.

Folks, here's the bottom line: If you do not provide for patrols to plan and execute their own hikes and campouts with your approval, they WILL do it without your approval. And when they do, they will likely invite girls along, and someone will bring beer and smokes. In the process, they will "dumb down" their outdoor experience to the lowest physical and moral denominator. They will do this outside of Scouting, and some (maybe all) of them will decide they don't need your troop anymore. Some others will take a trip that is well beyond what they can handle, and they will put themselves and their friends in harms way because they did not get that "third eye" to review and approve their plan. So remind your CM's that the alternative to a well-planned independent youth outing is not a well-planned adult supervised outing. It is a poorly planned outing that may put the youth in your community at serious risk.

The boy I'm dealing with falls in the "obvious, if you just look at him" category, but the council advancement committee doesn't review these things with the kid in front of them. Thus, the doctor's note. Remember: Boy Scouts love paperwork! In the same vein, looking at this kid, you'd wonder if he could survive a mile hike. It may take an hour. But the kid is tough. Regardless, the advancement committee doesn't see the kid, so they demand proof that you've thought this thing through. We will work on the rescue requirements, because even if you can't handle the equipment, you can coach someone who can.

'But if they called these "Area Venturing Summits" I think that would distinguish them from "The Summit", etc.' Problem is The Area Summit winds up being redacted to "the Summit." I like "Encampment", but I'll go with whatever the youth decide to call it. Actually, "Insomniacs Revenge" defines nearly every Venturing activity!!!

We have resources galore (human and environment), but no scout has earned the MB for lack of interest. You have a boy who has an interest. From my perspective, you've a tenfold advantage. (Of course we temperate clime folks don't have a clue and maybe that's your point ...)

Definitely read the book, because ... If you ask someone about a rule, they will make one for you. Also, Den Chiefs should be selected by the SPL *and* scoutmaster (note who's listed first) if they are coming from a troop. And, yes my Arrow of Light knot is upside down. Patch Dyslexia. I'll fix it one of these days.

Saw the show -- and the uniform. Told my family, "Them trademark layers at National are gonna have a field day!"

My jr. fire fighters love their welding gloves. But, our Jackie Chan fans love shouting "HaPaTangs!" as they cook.

I bet a topic called "Pitfalls of Starting a Boy Led Troop" would draw similar discussions. When adult egos get in the way, it tarnishes the youth's view of the program. I certainly have had to apologise to youths more than once for things I've said. Some adults in our troop voiced concerns about our crew (or, more accurately, about hypotheticals that were NOT happening), and the boys picked up on it. This made that group of officers unwilling to try ANY combined activities during thier tenure. It took a lot of effort to keep them from branding those adults inappropriately. When my son turned 18, we sat down and talked about these and other issues he observed. (Some basically good people had made a negative impression without even knowing it!) I made sure he went into adulthood with a positive attitude toward every leader who helped him on his way to Eagle. So my point is: however you get branded -- try to grow a thick skin. Let the youth know that you want to help them have the best program and most postive experience the BSA can offer. (This includes the young women who signed on for this gig without much concern over the politics of the thing.) Fox, looks like you and your son may have to vote with your feet. Just keep in mind that voting by staying (if he's okay with that) sends a very strong message. MT, you might want to warn your son I was in a tight Leadership Corps (old school Venturing Patrol) and had no liking for Explorers (the Venturing equivalent in my day) -- until I had a daughter!

Just in case you really want to go "over the top ..." There's this Middle Eastern dish called Kibbee. It is basically lean ground meat and crushed wheat mixed together and baked. (Actually, if you trust the farmer who raised the lamb you could eat it raw, but I digress ...) There are lots of variations, but one simple one is to mold two patties of the stuf and put fried onions and your favorite mix of nuts and spices in the between the two. This is perfect for a foil pack! Do a search and you'll find tons of recipies, pick the one with flavors that you like and go for it. The down side: 1. GET THOSE HANDS WASHED BEFORE YOU START. 2. mixing the meat and wheat might constitute some work, but I've seen most guys take it as therapy. P.S. - You dutch oven guys, I've tried this, but it is pretty tough to get the timing right in a dutch oven. Do a single layer if you try it. Foil pack definitely works best.

The venturing entries on wikipedia was a good start. Get a hold of a venturing leaders guide. There is also a little "selling venturing" booklet, but I don't know how that applies where you live. Is there a Swiss scouting association you can affiliate with? The reason I ask is that although written stuff is handy, my Venturing Leader Specific Training course really help me connect with leaders who helped me set the right tone for my crew.

Yep, everybody's a critic. But it takes a lot of work to find constructive critisizm. (E.g., "maybe you should be like this, but maybe this is not practical, how about starting here ...") After a while, it's just easier to adopt a my-way-or-the-highway attitude. Inflated egos may gravitate toward WB, but I wouldn't blame WB for inflated egos. Beads or no beads, you'd bump into the same situation. (Well, at least I have.) I've done the church elder gig. A lot of the time you're stuck being a rudder ... make small changes to turn a big ship. Press on, and keep a clean airsick back handy!

Not essential in terms of survival, but for paperwork ... I carved my own rubber stamp out of an eraser. (It has various totems related to a club I'm in and my hobbies.) When boys ask for a sign-off in their books, I try to have the stamp and pad in my pack's top pocket or in a plastic clipboard. I now carve one for my SM's every summer camp. If you look up websites about letterboxing, you'll come across the essential "how to's" for carving your own.

Fox, this sounds like a crew of convenience -- the adults' convenience. Most start out that way, but after a while venturers become their own entity that operates independent of the troop. That doesn't mean they never share activities, but when they do it is by mutual agreement of the youth. Our girls do not share sleeping facilities with the boys. Period. (Okay, there may be some bizzare exception if we are stranded in a snow storm on the side of a cliff and have to all dig into the one shelter before nightfall. But at every event, we PLAN for separate facilities and implent that plan even if it is inconvenient.) Even an all-boy crew should camp at some distance from the troop -- sort of the adult 300ft rule. The crew recognises the SPL must fulfill his duties (patrol assignments, bed checks, etc ...) before joining the crew for cracker-barrel, etc... When it comes to courts of honor, our girls are welcome to attend. (They usually show up for Eagle COR's.) But unless the *boys* write them into the script, they sit as a group in a separate row from the troop and pack. The only official time our crew president share a mic with the SPL is on Scout Sunday when they give a report to the chartered organization. They each get about 3 minutes. The crew officers are responsible for discipline, and in the situation you described I would have advised them to act by reprimanding the older boy and assigning him to KP or latrine duty for the weekend. We jump through all those hoops to avoid the pitfalls you mention. There are advantages to shared activities, I have seen some positive one-on-one interactions between a young lady and a younger scout that have made all my hassles worthwhile. But I won't bore you with those because you explicitly said you want to only hear negatives. Well yes, there's a fine line and when adult leaders refuse to walk it, when they don't listen to one another, more negatives than positives begin to appear. I think you are wise to step aside as CC, because your vision conflicts with the new SM's and Advisor's. You don't need the headache. But, I would encourage you to interact with the venturers (especially the female officers). Maybe you have something (e.g., a "skill set") to offer them as individuals that you couldn't when your time was taken up as CC. Let's face it, it sounds like your sons are stuck with them until you find another troop. Might as well help shape them into women your sons can respect.

I, too, have experienced similar negatives. It's amplified in venturing where -- even if a boy has tons of camping/hiking experience -- how to behave in the company of young women comes into play. But, co-ed or not, your contingent has to be a performing team long before it's time to ship out. Optimally, if the trip involves much backpacking, the venture patrol should turn into the hike-a-month club. By the time you take the trip, each boy should have attended 5 weekend conditioning hikes. Which practically means you should have at least 8 weekends scheduled. (This can overlap with weekends with the rest of the troop, where the venture patrol hikes into the site from a longer trail while the adults not chaperoning the high adventure maintain a base camp. It makes a big impression on the younger kids to see a group of guys arriving from who-knows-where and disappearing at the crack of dawn to cover another few miles before heading home.) If the new boy is willing to sign on to troop life, and the training schedule, I would wager he won't be a problem. If not, I'll bet his buddies will come to you on day 3 of the high adventure and ask you why you let them bring him along.

Didn't hear anything in WB about POR contracts. Certainly our WB PL's haven't had to sign contracts. So, I'm not sure how WB factors in. Did these leaders tell you that that's what their WB troop did? Maybe that paperwork will come out when we come back for the second WB weekend.

My crew formed because my son and his buddies were bragging about his troop going to Seabase. The girl-scouts at their lunch table wanted in on the gig. I was told by their mom that "we can form this crew for just this one outing!" Four years after the trip, and I'm still clocking my "one hour a month" advising some of the best youth this community has to offer. Yours sounds like the "sometimes they decide to stay together" type. Most crews I know "act somewhat like a crew, without the organization."

I like my socks & sandles almost as much as I love long sleave underarmor beneath my uni! I wouldn't waste time matching epalets. There would be no way to get a perfect match, and since the vintage uni's aren't gowing away any time soon, you'd have a mix of reds and greens. Matching colors within unit would be kind of neat. Uniforming is not a method in venturing, but I think if a crew wanted to adopt the national uniform as their own -- having matching underarmour would help give them the distinctive flair that we're looking for from units.

I have a boy who cannot swim. He's completed all other 1st & 2nd class requirements done the alternative that our council advancement chair agreed upon (a mile hike, which slow and challenging, but survivable for him, be able to explain rescue techniques to other scouts). The hardest part: paperwork. Got the boy's and dad's signature on the planned alternative requirements. His dad got the affidavit from his doc that he can't swim, but it didn't say he *could* hike! So his dad needs to get that before our advancement chair says o.k. So really, it may be just as quick to find an experienced swim insturctor to volunteer a few evenings with your boy until he learns the modified strokes to meet the reqs. Bottom line: talk to the boy about what path he wants to take. Support his effort,

I constantly remind my youth: "Boyscouts ... ... Love ... ... Paperwork!" They all now know that by the time they are SPL (or crew officer) I will think far less of them if their leadership style involves any form that needs to be signed.

Area VOA was getting into the habit of calling Venturing area gatherings "Summits". That noun fit nicely. But it is now being used for a specific lattitude/longitude where boy scouts will gather every four years starting in 2013.

Oh, and on the back-country trips, warn your parents that we may hike more than the planned milage so long as we're still in the designated wilderness area. We won't interrupt the youths' thought processes until they are more than a 1/2 mile down the wrong trail. (The helicopter parents learn to hang back with the Old Fart's patrol pretty darn quick.)

I confess being of two minds about the issue, and thus understand the GSS's ambiguity. Some the folks to whom I trust my kids in a heartbeat smoke regularly. I love sitting around the campfire after the boys are in bead, letting them light up, and hearing them relax and reflect on the day. Nearly all of those folks after age 40 can't handle more than two miles with a full pack on rugged terrain. I want what the tobacco has taken from our boys and girls! I want parents to see how wonderfully their son or daughter perfoms with their crew after 8 miles of rocks and bogs. I want to share with them the sight of a ten point buck that walks into our camp while the kids are playing cards on the forest floor after supper. If an all-out ban would get more parents back-country without losing those precious moments at summer camp, I'd be all for it. But I figure if the previous paragraph won't getcha to ditch the 'baccy or lose the pounds, legislation from on high is going to alienate you. I'll settle for your company in the fore-country and the quality time you can offer my kids when we're there.

Don't forget the handbook! The "lecture" time gets cut in half if the boys in each patrol pass the handbook around and reads the instructions, each boy reading one scentence to their patrol. (I guess I'm in the don't-even-bother-with-groups-of-20-plus-boys camp.) Then, as a group talk about what was read (use props). Don't lecture longer than it took to read it. Never cover more material than can be read by a 12 year old in 10 minutes. This is not so usefull for knots, more useful for map, saftey, and first aid. Regardless, by making the boys look it up in the index and read from the book, there's an outside chance they'll pick up their books when they want to learn something they haven't been taught yet. I'd still group boys into patrols right after the demonstration. The new scout patrol has several years to learn this stuff, so I wouldn't worry too much about them. I would have a troop guide for each new scout patrol, just to help with the reading, repeat the demonstration, and guide the ones who are actually trying to perform the skill. Each instructer then observes 3 or 4 patrols as they work the skills. He picks the patrol that is having the toughest time, re-demonstrates or guides, then rotates to the next patrol if time allows. Wrap all this up in 30 minutes. Remind them of the page in the handbook. Let them know that patrols who are interested in more practice can arrange to meet with an instructor during an open activity time. (This means you gotta allow time for an open activity, or allow 1 in four troop meetings to be an open meeting where each patrol can pick their activity.) I guess what I'm saying is with 100 boys, narrow your personal attention to the ones who really want to be taught. Encourage your instructors to be looking for the "teachers" and "learners" in each group and to not be discouraged by the boys who aren't there yet. Like the shampoo instructions "lather rinse repeat". If the boys know this is the routine for every troop meeting -- or each morning, afternoon, and evening period on a campout -- you'll have fewer glazed over eyes.(This message has been edited by qwazse)