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I'd like to put a more positive spin on this ... Then: My SM, one (maybe two, at times, ASM's) three committmee members, and the 40 of us. A kid NEVER interacted with the committee members unless they were taking the "long walk" for their board of review on the nights they met after the troop meeting. Now: My Son's SM, at least SIX ASM's at various levels of training, as many or more Committee members -- all who actively recruit MB counselors for the district. A "trail to eagle" program at our council camp to motivate First Class scouts to move up a rank within the year. This program was started by a donor who asked the question "why aren't there more Eagle Scouts?" There are more Eagles now because a boy's chances are better, and that's because more adults care about the well-being of scouts in their community.

The other boundary is group cohesiveness. Like E61 said, a bunch of first-years used to everyone else doing everything for them need to build a sense of teamwork. That means scheduling local hikes and service projects and partnering with adults for the accountability they need for trips requiring transportation/overnight stays. This isn't just for the boy's success. This is to increase the confidence level of the adults. When adult A asks "... are you sure ___ picked a workable menu?" I can reply, "I've always ate well when ___ was cooking." Where I haven't let a youth lead, that's where I have my greatest doubts about him/her.

My sentiments resonate with Eamonn's -- with crew officers having more lattitude than a PLC. Like him, there are some places I will not go. For example, one of our crew's first brainstorming sessions included "a trip to the spa". Somehow, that card never made it into my envelope of "must do" activities. Fortunately, no youth ever volunteered to plan it. In a practical sense, I try to facilitate communication. ("You would like to to this? So would ___. Why don't you give him/her a call?") My main goal is to coach every Crew president into doing that for me. On the other hand, I'll fill out tour permits and badger adults for driver info, etc .... All depends on how active my VP-admin wants to be.

Hey Stosh, The real problem is someone realised you're they outsider and felt bothered by it. Now that you have all that time ... let some of your (ex-?) boys know my crew's 5 short on sailors for a Bahama's sailing adventure this summer. If I'm bringing adults, I want the kind who know they're good for nothing and best used that way. If I'm bringing youth, they need to be the kind that know the keel won't pull free from the crab traps until they dive under themselves and cut the lines! Seriously PM me if you're interested.

Never had a 1:1 with our crew's UC. We shake hands at roundtable and other events. He never visited a meeting. He dropped me a line to have me call in to the DE about a parent complaint regarding one of my youth. He was not involved in the conversation, never offered to meet with me and the parent or youth in question. Did that on my own, and sent a note directly to the DE about my plan. It was a lousy month. Would his partnership have helped? I don't know. He's a nice enough guy for what it's worth. We're partly the victims of our troop burning bridges with the old UC. Everyone would rather keep a respectful distance.

I love those "interesting" calls from the DE about problems parents are having with your unit! The main "too much leadership" symptom that you have to worry about is when crossovers are afraid to stick with the troop because they are intimidated by how much responsibility your boys have. Listen to your first-years. If they are excited about the program and feel like the older boys are being brotherly to them, you're probably okay. Here's what I do with the venturing crew: If there is a way that a parent would like to help, I have him or her present what they have to offer to the crew president or VP-program. If the officers approve that person to serve as a consultant for an activity, and they appoint a youth activity chair to partner with them, it moves forward. If it's just a one-parent show, the activity gets tabled. I have very earnest parents whom I've coached to not act unless they get a call from a youth. Troops are a little different. Parents come in with a lot more expectations. Sometimes they aren't even sure if their concerns are about their son's safety, their son's time for other activities, your boy's maturity, the advancement program, or even their own sense of feeling welcome. It all gets bundled up and put under a category that seems to fit, and sent to a UC or DE who has to translate it and he is obliged to get back to you even if he doesn't think it's all that serious. So, your CC has to try to listen to them, and try to have them come on an event at sit with you as you watch the boys in action.

I've had complaints that our unit is not reverent enough ... two replies: 1. What would you expect from a Presbyterian CO? Our ministers instigated the whiskey rebellion! 2. This is a youth-led movement. Is your boy ready to be our new CA?(See jblake's reply about how to use chaplain's aids.) Of course, that's only to the ones who've commented. So, I suspect the one-meeting thing could be working the other way in my neck of the woods.

(aw shucks, Moose) InMyHumbleOpinion - Venturers, along with OA, as they mature, should be the "movers and shakers" of program at the district and council level. Some of them will come in with too much swagger and a be little rough around the edges. Hopefully getting dinged for vulgarities or other misdeeds will straighten them out. Thus the importance of their participation in district events. As they approach that 18-and-over mark they begin to be very helpful at pointing out what the program looks like from "the cheap seats." They have a feel for what events should be exclusive or inclusive, and who should "own" what activity. Us old folks would do well to listen to them. Some folks may be doing that in Fox's district, thus the changing of policies regarding their "Venturing fellowship weekend". So I agree with Fox 76 that it's a pain figuring out where these kids fit in. I just think that there is some gain for all the hassle.

Scouting includes Bhuddism because, some Buddists happen to be deists of whan form or another. A scout who is trying to sort out his religious beliefs through the lens of modern Bhuddism may ultimately settle on atheism, or not. The same can be said for many folks (I think I'm one of them) who tried to sort out their beliefs through modern science. And, as a practical matter most troops will consider a boy in that "sorting" stage of life for his tenure in scouting. We're laid back, just like gaY scouT experienced. That's because most of us religous types in scouting have found that God spoke loudest to us through nature and not through Bible-pounding adults. But, we're not doing a boy that's settled on atheism a favor by "sweeping it under the rug." The "it's only a stage" approach is too patronizing. And the "we'll give you a pretty medal anyway" approach undermines the brand of the award. The best we could do is after he's camped with us for years and earned 21+ MBs, help the boy hold his head high and turn down an award that logic should dictate is beneath his beliefs. It would be just like letting a muslim kid take holy communion so he would not feel left out. The preist/pastor would be offended if we let him, and it would be an insult to his beliefs. Same with adults who have settled on a sexual orientation that our organization looks frowns on. No point in fooling them or ourselves into playing some variation of "don't ask, don't tell" and thinking everyone will be ok.

It is a mistake to assume that crew members more advanced scout skills. We have several things going against us ... 1. A lot of venturers were never boy scouts, so they missed out on 3 years of training. 2. A lot of crews specialize in one activity (say skiing) and don't camp much. 3. We have the same problems troops have coordinating older scouts into a unit. Heck our crew is a distinctly outdoor group and we're lucky if we get 6 camping nights a year. 4. Since crews have diverse foci, it is hard to hold an event that attracts multiple crews in one location. 5. Since there are fewer crews than troops they have to travel farther to have the same turn-out. All of these things conspire to cause a crew to be isolated and miss out on scouting ideals. Thus is important to include venturers as participants at district events.

Hate to be armchair psychiatrist, but some phobias are treated by immersion therapy. If a waiver really matters, get the opinion of a psychologist with experience sucessfully treating water phobias. The point is not to waive rank, but to find out if the boy has a treatable problem or not. Sencondly, not making rank is a poor excuse for dropping out. The boy needs encouragement to excel in other activities, earning all the non-aquatic MB's he can over the next couple of years while he sorts this swimming thing out.

Wow! The church pays for none of our units' fees (like some of you lucky ones), but they do keep the heat on and give us substantial storage space. Right now only one youth is a member. We point that out to our youth constantly. There are a lot of "whiz-bang" youth ministries at neighboring churches, but none of them have made the commitment to start a pack, troop, or crew. Ours does all three. Our kids do the favor by showing up at Scout Sunday, and providing the occasional service day or Eagle project. Sounds like this is not unusual.

ASM's who are in it for their own boys should be strongly encouraged to start their own troop. Members of committee who put in time for other boys (helping with two deep when their kid isn't going, etc ...), should be strongly encouraged to be ASMs.

I was thinking about cross-over parents ... try having the SPL give them "the talk" while the boys are off getting acquainted with their troop guide. Keep in mind that you will probably have to have a follow-up discussion on the patrol method six months later. If our SM is not causing the most trouble, as per Thomas54, we have a problem. Likewise, as Crew Advisor, if I'm not causing the most trouble, we have a problem. (AK-Eagle, This includes troubling CC's who think I shouldn't be spelunking and driving on the same day!)

What do you mean by "nothing"? Have they elected officers? How many meetings have they had in the past month? How many activities have they had in the past four months? Are meetings announced at least a few days in advance? Your situation happens a lot, and there may or may not be reasons for it. Scoutnut suggested a good starting point. Be careful that you don't come off like your blaming it on your kids, explain that when youth are part of the solution for one crew, they become a great resource for lots of crews.

I take a break for the weekend and look what I miss out on! gayS couT: in reply to your answer ... Q1. Not enough information. (You know, like in the test which says at the top: "make sure you read all of the instructions before starting!") Q2. Still not enough information. Are you going to stand up for your beleifs and drop out of this organization? There are a few God-denying sodomites whom I will trust to lead my Christian kids in some activity or another, because they demonstrate an otherwise high moral character. Part of that character includes not "sweeping under the rug" a conflict with one group's core issues simply because they feel strongly that those issues should be peripheral. In other words, I know where they stand, they know where they stand, my kids know where they stand. They do good work. They are truly gifted (by their Creator, although I have yet to convince them of that, or of the whole straight thing!). So, I suggest if you are convinced that *you* are such a moral example, you start (or join) a youth movement open to athiestic homosexuality. We Eagles may be a little bitter that you swept things under the rug while other boys had to seriously reckon with their faith in front of a bunch of adults probably for the first time in their lives, but we'll let that slide if you make a clean start of it.

If we have a half-dozen cross-overs at the same time, we form a NSP for 5-6 months. The TG's goal is to get the joining rank and maybe tenderfoot requirements down. Each boy may not make rank, he'll just recieve instruction. Since attendance at activities is far from perfect, the new scouts usually get folded into the existing patrols for the weekends. At summer camp, permanent patrol assignments are made. We give our boys the lattitude of completely rehsaping themselves every year (new name, new yell, new flag). In terms of relationships this seems to work pretty well. The troop guide gets a run for his money for 6 months, and by then he may feel like running for SPL. The new boys build new friendships gradually while still retaining the old ones. Then after summer camp, each PL can assess where his boys are on the trail to first class, and suggest program accordingly.

A COR whose kid is in a unit will probably operate differently than one who never had kids in scouting, and both will operate differently than one whose kids have graduated scouting. We've experienced all three. More importantly, take a long hard look at the COR's training record when you visit a unit.

BD, Scout parent = volunteer. Eliza, return to your superiors (be they your boys or other parents) and say that there are no reputable purveyors of sleds suitable for a district klondike derby! But, you could probably call some scouts or venturers who may have a one in their garage. They may loan it without even asking for a generous donation to their coffers. For example, if you are in the Pittsburgh area IM me.

A civic event would be an appropriate time to wear SOME of your medals (ie Eagle medal or the like) This is an important point that folks often neglect. The Eagle medal is not just for your scouting uniform. If one attends "tie and tails" social events where medals are worn, one could wear his eagle on his lapel. Also, for scout Sunday, you might want to encourage former eagles to pull their medals out of the attic and put them on their "Sunday best". (Actually, if you encourage their wives, it's more likely to happen!) That's the point of medals, they are meant for formal occasions long after the uniform doesn't fit. (E.g., when my uncle went back to visit Normandy, he brought his purple heart to wear on his dinner jacket.)

I don't know, but I think it's the same reason why my church promotes small group Bible studies. It's easy to get lost in the crowd if your group is more than 8. My crew has activities that involve 4 to 40 kids. Good memories come from all of them, but I think they cherish the ones when the numbers are on the small side.

It doesn't sound like capability was the issue. Otherwise the point of contention would not be when to cruise, but rather to cruise at all! But, this brings up another, more personal, approach to Mrs. X. "The other youth and I are getting the impression that you lack confidence in our ability carry out our responsibilities. Was there anything that we did that gave you this impression? What can we do to regain your trust? We would like to restore things to where the brunt of the work from planning on down is in the youths' hands. How can we act to rebuild that relationship?" If she realizes that her actions convey something that she doesn't intend, and that it affects you on a more personal level, she might be more sensitive the next time. Plus it opens up the conversation to give you an idea of what you might do differently. (E.g. log minutes from your skype conversations ASAP.) Without this kind of conversation, your Skipper may manage to reset boundaries so the adults "behave", but they can wind up feeling rejected when what we really want is a little personal growth on everyone's part.

Tell your young adults we appreciate their contribution to the BSA. It keeps registration costs down for the rest of us!

So do all of the seabase medical forms I circulated two months ago still work?

Engine - I'd consider 60 a big troop. That said, it probably could benefit from leadership in "there's-not-a-patch-for-that" areas. I wholeheartedly agree with the above suggestions. Also is a venturing crew available to these boys? POR's while serving in a crew count. This can be more of a hassle, because ... 1. Crew officers may have a different standard for holding office. Joining a crew just because you need a POR may be a non-starter, unless the boy backs it up with real work. Upon board of review, the troop committee may need the boy to explain a crew POR in more detail than if it were a troop POR where they may have seen the fruit of his labors. 2. They boy may be intimidated by leading older youth in a crew or he may simply not want to be involved in Venturing. 3. The paper pushers at your council may be in denial about recognizing PORs from a crew if the Eagle Application is primarily through the troop. Anyway, this may be an option for one of your boys if you can can coach him in 1, he can overcome 2, and you are willing to stand by the him in 3.