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E.A. - This is something that nobody finds embarrassing, thus there is no article in Scouting Mag explaining the importance of the change. Everyone else - Let's make it clear that not every patrol qualifies to do an over-nighter on their own. In fact none in my troop ever has. (More because they were over-busy rather than unprepared.) But, this is what we hold up to the boys as a goal. It's how a patrol leader knows for sure "I have arrived." So if my boys pull a stunt like demanding to go off into the woods on their own for the night, I'll review their plan and tell them that they are uninsured (because, really, that's the first thing on their minds) but given that they had a solid plan, I'd tell them and their parents that I'd definitely not stay home and sulk that night. Nudge nudge wink wink. Why? Because if an 18 year old can go off to fight for our country. Our country needs 18 year olds who can pull their team together. WAKWIB - A patrol of 8 girls hiking 10 miles by themselves to a state park and spending the night with no adult supervision? It happens, just not in BSA or GSA. And, frankly, I would feel more comfortable with my daughter in that situation than on a shopping tour with a couple of adults in The Big Apple. Or a mixed gender patrol of 14 year olds doing the same? Well it's no secret that Venturing requires "adult association" because of the fear of fornication, and that's why I'm not afraid to work the program. But are our kids any more at risk than dropping them off at the mall? Anyway, "coedification" is no excuse. If troops were co-ed, stipulating that patrols be unisex if they intend to overnight would undermine the patrol method less than requiring adults to be present.

Our council already had our old TP application in Xcel spreadsheet format. So the online operation is same as usual. (Some of my computers are "vintage" systems and don't do the pdf's as well, but that's alright.) Some inconvenient changes: Our old TP accepted a committee member's signature. The new one requires committee chair. (So much for delegation.) This is offset by an electronic signature method. Member No is not something I kept handy. My youth officers aren't the best at tracking such things. Information for each day of the tour: not always realistic as some discussed above. The simplest itinerary our crew has is depart, arrive at insertion point, hike/raft/climb/sail each day as conditions permit, arrive at extraction point, return. Things I like I'm all for maps, etc ... as long as councils can accept that the older the group, the greater the likelihood of plans changing once they are out of cell-phone contact. The unit single point of contact.

As I mention in another thread. At roundtable our DE, introduced the tour plan and insisted it was to be filed for any gathering outside of your regular meeting location. I lit into him in front of everyone (and I really like this guy). Do you have any idea how many crew meetings are at local coffee shops? My VP-admin is going to love this!

This is patently obscene. I guess if my boys are going on patrol for real, they will have to leave the Troop. Oh, and if me and my buddy are the only Venturing dads who want to take our daughters backpacking, we'll just leave the crew for the day. At roundtable our DE, introduced the tour plan and insisted it was to be filed for any gathering outside of your Charter org. location. I lit into him in front of everyone (and I really like this guy). Do you have any idea how many crew meetings are at local coffee shops?

Become a crew advisor, then you get youth who are really apologetic that they can't fit it all in and can't recharter (or the young lady who's mom is wigged out by the co-ed thing and won't let her join). I reply "as long as you're not robbing liquor stores to buy drugs, I'll be proud of you." Still, deep down, there's a little piece of you that's heartbroken.

I know I'm pushing upstream on this. But, if indeed the act is no longer offensive, then "homosexual" or "Sodomite" should do. There's no need to hide behind "gay" (as if grandma's ears would be less scandalized), and in turn no one should be relegated to the status of "faggot" (as if anyone thinks we still burn heretics). Maybe in a few decades when one of our boys are over in England and someone asks him for a "fag", he'll make the appropriate connection. Well this is fagging me out, and I still have roundtable tonight, so ta ta for now.

My son did not attend a single MB clinic. But, I made it clear that he was to meet MBC's at their convenience, not his. He did rely on troop counselors and summer camp. He partialed a lot. There were some times when he effectively earned a MB (e.g., climbing) while on vacation, but never mailed the blue card his SM signed for him to the outfitter! He passed on the badge! He still got his bird. He didn't get it at 15, but I really think he enjoyed the journey. And, I'm very proud that his Eagle has the same "polish" as mine.

If it weren't for scouting I'd probably be doing more church, and just as burned out and abused. But even in this program, I have to constantly say no. I feel like such a heel because I've put off signing up as a Merit Badge Counselor for years. But every time I consider it, I think about how I'm counselling boys and girls to be youth leaders! Yes, I love my hobbies, but not so much that I want to fill out one more piece of paperwork to do them! If a kid wants to learn from me, great. If he/she wants a patch, they will have to make a few calls to the many counselors in our district. Likewise for District Comittee's. I love the organizational charts, they really are pretty. But it's to the point where that one meeting a month might be the hour a Troop, Crew, or VOA officer might need to touch base with me. So unless I see something in it for my youth (and I think I'm pretty generous when factoring in indirect benefits), I'm not making the trade-off.

I refuse to relegate any part of this vast and wonderful language to vulgarity simply because once upon a time people relegated homosexuals to little more that "wood for the bonfire." When I tell my boys to gather faggots for the evening's ceremonies, they know not to give me guff. Being a quintessential gay white male, I insist we take celebration seriously! -- NEFS* *No Euphemisms for Sodomy

momOf2: In deference to our Charter Org., I would not hesitate to tell a couple who hasn't tied the knot to bring separate tents. Or, if they would rather: not put up a tent at all and sleep under the open sky with me. (Oh wait, then I'd be sharing the Almighty's tent with them ... what to do?) I think the OP's problem is that a co-leader judged him/her rather than listened. It's one thing to say, "Hey there's a YP problem here and I'd like to help you fix it before all the cubbies are settled in." It's another to fly off the handle and think that an event organizer is part of the great liberal conspiracy and make a stink to the entire district!

BOR's shouldn't include current events quizzes, but ... It's important to know what's on boys' minds. That includes how they feel about events going on in the world around them. Some of our boys have shown a lot of insight in both community and scouting issues.

That reminds me, in many tribal societies, the woman builds the home, butchers the game, tans hides, carries water (sometimes more on their heads than guys have ever carried on their backs), lights fires, etc ... So while guys may need to grow up with male role models, they also need to learn to respect the women in their lives. That's why I think female ASM's and SM's are needed, as long as they can tone down the (s)mothering behavior! Moms who've camped with us have managed to do this, and I think it's helped boys to actually work on that "mystique."

I bet the SMs' conversation went something like this ... SM1: "So, I guess those girls were practicing some wilderness survival skills this weekend." SM2: "Yep. At least our boys spent the morning on EDGE. One of these days, they'll be able to teach them a thing or two." SMT224 - thanks for keeping the girls sharp!

Sorry BPT. Didn't mean to go all conspiracy theory on you. I can't quote the boy exactly, but I was waiting form him to say one of the four words (especially since he was concerned about seeing it as a requirement), and he didn't. I don't think he was purposefully trying to avoid it. For "explain" he said something like "I told him how to do it." I just generally find that most boys up for Life have developed good intuition about teaching. I don't think knowing an acronym helps teach any better. I do think it could lead someone to teach worse. (Because there's no reminder about the handbook.)

All depends on who pushes the paperwork and how,

This is so simple. I don't see why everyone wants to fight it. What BDPT00 failed to mention was that he knows full well that some of us are actively promoting objectively superior methods ... http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=291125&p=3 Just had a conversation tonight with a candidate for Life Scout who was concerned about this requirement being "slipped in". I asked him to tell us who he taught what last and how he did it. He described EDGE to a tee without using one of those words. I said I'd pass him. The SM said he still had to know the acronym. I explained to him why we disagreed: That I contend that any sufficient method would 1) Not require knowledge of the English language to remember. 2) Enforce the need to read the handbook. He said "Oh yeah, EDGE does lack anything about reference." (His words not mine, people.) SOMEBODY PROMOTE THAT BOY TO TRAINER BEFORE HE GETS SOME TEACHING-SKILL-STUNTING ACRONYM IN HIS HEAD!!!!

I've seen too many people playing semantics with either term to care. Facts on the ground: if the boys have standards of what they need to do to plan and implement, they will live up to them. If the standards fall short, adults will take up the slack. But if by and large the youth are exceeding standards, we keep raising the bar. It works backwards at times: the more slack adults take up, the easier it is to lower standards for the youth, the less capable they'll seem, because they'll have fewer chances to perform. Over time, we wind up lowering the bar. We have to keep reminding folks in which way the balance should be tipping.

Lower drive the time, increase the probability of sticking out the blizzard. It's an issue I talk through with the youth months before we plan a trip. Not only for safety in transit, but for time required to get rescued should the need arise. I've endured a lot of nail-biters on the drive back from "snow belts". Of course if it was only two miles without snow-tires, I would reconsider hauling kids in winter. (There were years when I wasn't that clever.)

The boys who like 'em promote 'em. The boys who don't seem to advance just as quickly.

Not to dramatize the consequences ... A first-class scout in my troop quit because a klondike derby was cancelled because of too much snow. I'm sure safe transportation was the issue, but he didn't see it that way. I met him 30 years after high school and he is one of those starving artists types that has a sordid history of non-starter carreers ... Be glad your boy is sticking with it. Help him to make something happen! If nothing else, you, his best friend, and his best friend's dad head to a weekend fishing someplace.

MT - Plus the time of each person attending the presentation! Our DAC reviews each Eagle project. The boys meet with him personally. He does not always come to the EBOR, but will send a delegate from the advancement committee. He's a lawyer, so I think he likes working with the boys and helping them survive the paperwork. The goal is to make sure the boy is following the Eagle application to the letter. It doesn't have to be all laser-printed, but he'll dock for penmanship if he can't tell what the specks are. He also takes a moment at every-other round-table to cover recent changes or simply recap the list of "audit flags" that the advancement committee looks out for. Bottom line: this guy taught me everything I needed to coach my boys once they achieved Life. So, if you can devote a small part of your time to training at roundtables, a large part of your time to touching base with each candidate, and none of your time making rules that don't need to be there ... you'll do great!

Never had a request for impeachement. But I had one boy approach me and say "__ is not a good SPL." I replied, "So, how are you going to help him be a better SPL?" I've also had the committee complain about certain issues regarding leadership and discipline among the boys, and admitted that the boys elected the "popular", not the "most effective" leader.

My PM counselor was a bank VP, and to this day I remember meeting him at his desk at the bank and going over the MB. It was very impactful. I wouldn't put a bottom age on the req. Especially with a scout whose family is in financial straights. His self-discipline with $$'s may be a big help to the family.

Now that we bring up the topic of high adventure bases ... If the older boys are going to them, eventually your boys will want to go also. But, don't overwhelm yourself with the concept. Do saddle some of the responsibility with the boys. Here's my lecture to young scouts ... "Personal Managment should be one of the first merit badges a boy takes, not one of the last, on his trail to Eagle. But, since I know it rarely works out that way, and I've seen that look in your eyes when you've heard about Philmont or Seabase or Jamboree, here's what you need to do starting now: Earn and save $100 a month. We're talking your own money in your own account that your folks help you set up. Look at the jobs around the house that your parent's complain about doing. (Laundry, dishes, cleaning up after pets, lawn care.) Offer to do one or two of them. You'll have to stop doing something else that you do every day just to kill time (like playing video games, beating on your little brother or teasing your sister, whatever). You'll have to start doing those jobs -- maybe put in an hour a day. In other words make your self woth that $100. If your dad has a business, maybe you should ask for a job application and work there on Saturday mornings. Your neighbors might be looking for someone to do work. They may not be able to fork over that much cash. Maybe they are already paying you an allowance. Then, *stop* spending your folks' money. Say 'dad instead of that new game system I've been nagging you about, can you put it in a savings account for me? Forget that soda you wanted today. Drink some tap-water instead. Oh, and get the most out of your education by making perfect marks. If folks see you are being frugal with their money (remember they pay for your school one way or another), they may consider you worth the investment. This sounds crazy and maybe impossible, but I think it's within almost every boy's potential to be worthy of $100 per month. If he starts when he's 11 or 12 maybe by the time he's 13 or 14 he'll have bankrolled $2400.00. That'll more than cover the cost of any super-activity. And the best part? If you change your mind and don't want anything to do with scouting, you still have that cash for whatever really interests you!" Your scoutmaster will probably say something of the sort. But you can modify the above for a parent-child conversation and for the method of saving you think is best. As a parent it is really something to see a boy become (somewhat) more responsible around the house.

jb We're Venturing, so you're boy's "in" with us. Although the other stuff in his life sounds like he'll have a shortage of funds and time(Although he'll have one sweet ride in a couple of years! 0 to 250 in .05 sec, probably.) I got some young women who don't want to be treated like girl scouts and boys who are tired of faking boy-led in key positions.