qwazse

Gunny, Sarcasm noted. Sometimes it sinks in when I try to remind adults that for a brand to be worth anything it needs to be defended. So it's our responsibility to make sure Johnny-come-lately with the bad attitude does not tarnish the brand by getting it undeservedly. Edad, I remind youth that it's not about the medal, it's about the character that causes others to award you that medal. If you don't earn the award, simply maintain good character and eventually you'll get whatever benefits the bird on your chest would have got you. Sherm, I agree, First Class should be the BSA "seal of approval". A boy should be proud to put that on their resume. But even if it were so, I bet we'd still see these down-to-the-wire scramblings for FC, because sooner or later someone would make it about the military pay grade or scholarship or whatever.

Thanks for the feedback. I guess we're pretty much agreed on the "inform, but don't babysit" 17y.o.'s. Is it about leadership? Or about outdoors? Well, my oldest just came from a spring break backpacking trip with his college fellowship. He got the fire started (without fuel or starters) after a wet first day. He helped his team ford streams safely on the last day. He helped in the decision to call the trip early because conditions were not getting any better and the newbies were taking a beating. Was he showing leadership, or just outdoors skills? Don't know, but I think he pulled off that caring adult thing quite nicely.

We had an Eagle candidate recently who butted up against his 18th birthday and missed his bird because of a "90 days recording" requirement on one of the merit badges. At his Life scoumaster conference (just barely 6 months earlier) we warned him to start those early. He worked on his project and completed it on day 363 of his 17th year, then ran around chasing counselors on day 364. I guess he was under the impression that he could "cook the books" on the MB. He kept telling us he had things under control, when deep down we suspected he was fooling himself. Anyway, when do you Scoutmasters tell the kid it's over and any badges earned or projects done are "just for fun"? - Obviously, if a boy earns Life at age 17, 6 months, and 1 day, we tell the boy it's time to have fun and not sweat the medal stuff. - But, at age 17, 9 months, and 1 day, do you call it if the boy can't produce a chart for a yet-to-be-earned Family Life or Personal Management or Personal Fitness with at least day 1 filled out? -- Or, do you let the boy a blue card keep going to the MBC so he at least learns something in the process. Then, count on the MBC to give him a little tough love when it's the day before his 18th birthday and only 89 days or fewer of his chart are completed? Committee chairs chime in too, because yours is the last signature on those applications! MBC's I don't want to hear from you if you're inclined to give a little slack, but I do want to hear from you if a boy comes to you with no chance of completing a badge but willing to work on a partial.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

224, Unless someone from your troop wants to take over the district activity committee, don't expect change. Lot's of troops play fast and loose with their schedule, so there's probably no motivation for the folks planning events to change. Instead I'm suggesting pulling little from the "if you can't beat 'em ..." playbook. I'd stay the course with your troop's meeting day and delegate a committee memger or ASM to attend RT. Some guys on district committee "don't do E-mail" so there's no point in even asking these hard working fellas to get you advance notice. So train your CM or ASM to be a "taker" when it comes to info. If someone even hints "hey we're thinking of doing X in the fall", your guy/gal should hound them for the usual "who", "what", "where", "how". Every month your RT attendee needs to compile a list of "things in the works" at the district level and hand it off to the SPL. The following week, your PLC reviews that list and decides if anything on it warrants a change in the troop calendar. Yes, this may mean you'll have to flex for something your boys decide they really want to do. But hopefully this will give you a little more than that one month lead time. And, when your district commissioner talks about not seeing your troop for a while you can say, "I ran it by my boys the week after it was announced, they didn't bite!"

Bottom line: the IH and COR(s) need to be on the same page with respect to the adults they let lead the units. If one of them feels uncomfortable with the selection, the issue is probably a non-starter. Of course, you have the right to get both of them in the same room and have a sit-down so you understand everyone's thinking before you spin your wheels to suggest another adult leader. Don't expect to get an answer you like -- just a little more clarity so this doesn't drag on for many months.

Looks like you got some solid advice. And your story seems a lot like mine. Adults in the troop have really worked hard to build up inventory. So half our trips we use patrol boxes, half we travel light. Our crew/troop operate pretty closely together. But, in spite of many offers, the crew has opted not to "own" any of the troop gear. One of our goals is to get the youth to invest in gear that will carry them through the college years. So my role as crew advisor: 1. I don't put a hitch on my van. This spares us the temptation of borrowing the troop trailer. 2. I train crew QM to "listen" for what youth need, "look" for avid backpackers who may have hand-me-downs or loaners. 3. My committee keeps a close eye on those garage sales. 4. Thus our troop QM is more of a gear keeper (configuring camp boxes, etc ...). While our crew QM is more of a librarian (trying to keep equipment in circulation). This covers the youth who want to try hiking before throwing down mucho $$ on stuff they'll only use once. Also, most of the boys that come from the troop have the gear they need and some skills to teach new crew members. I suspect your troop will operate in some middle ground between what our troop and crew does. The real issue: determining what you will maintain as community gear and what each boy needs to maintain in personal gear.

Perhaps it would be more comparable to offer you political science students a problem in integrating an equation or figuring the molar valence of a chmical compound! [sic] Perhaps just ask them to spell "chemical!" [sorry, I know keyboards are harsh on spelling. But, I couldn't resist.] I had a general studies friend take a "Science in Science Fiction" class and it got pretty deep, but he really liked it and got a lot of the math because it was put in a literary framework. I would say science questions from the New York Times would be fair game for most liberal arts majors. I do like the idea of throwing local as well as national figures in the mix. Every now and then one of our ASM's will throw out a quiz question to the boys. They have a week to bring back an answer. Usually only one boy makes the effort. Recent ones: Define Alluvial Define Depreciation Lands What Does the Moon Smell Like? Each of these were in the context of some current event.

BD First off I am not naive enough to believe my boy scouts are abstaining from sex.....So them bringing their girl friends along is irrelevant......and what makes it an official patrol outing anyhow????? Why couldn't they just go camping on their own.....we have patrols participate in paintball outside of scouting???? I agree about the promiscuity, but even fornicators need a break from the routine! A rough idea of what is and isn't an patrol outing: 1. PL tells me it's a patrol outing. 2. I see on the plan everyone in Patrol X of Troop ### is invited. 3. If the girlfriends are on the manifest, I tell them it doesn't qualify as a patrol outing. (They may report to the Crew ### President, get officers' approval, arrange for chaperons trained in Venturing youth protection, schedule a crew outing, apply the age restrictions.) 4. If fornicating is in the plan, don't call it a BSA outing. The point is we should PROUD to put the BSA seal of approval those boys who overnight as a patrol. We should not have to play semantics with the term "appropriate". We should have the freedom to rest easy at home having filed a solid tour plan on behalf of eight boys who are spending the night in an idyllic location 10 miles away. PL should be the recognized tour leader; the APL, assistant tour leader. The SM's signature should be all that's needed on the bottom.

BD - I just don't see it as a big deal. Sorry the adults go and simply don't associate with the boys and let them do there thing. Let me spell out "the big deal" first in terms of practical and then in terms of prinicple. Say you're one of those troops who camps the first of every month. You got 4 patrols, and by some stretch of youth leadership each has become a high perfoming team. You have two adult leaders who make excellent chaperons (down to the mythical 300'). So at the troop campout crakerbarrel, each PL comes to you with perfect hike/camp plans -- down to parent approvals -- for the weekend after next (the only one available because of sports, service projects, and fundraiser schedules). Each overnight is in a different location 5 miles from the troop meeting place in opposite directions. Tell me, which patrol gets the blessing of the coveted adult leadership? Alternatively, each patrol arranges a perfect overnight on a different week. Tell me, do you really expect the spouses of those two adults to part with them EVERY WEEKEND OF THE MONTH? Or do you really believe troop boy-led has EIGHT EXTRA ADULTS to share the burden of extra outings? So practically, the patrol method becomes unworkable. The principle here: "Prove yourself capable, then achieve your potential!" If those badges boys earn are indeed proof, then the boys will rise to the potential. The only question is: will they do it with or without the BSA? Oh, and you coediphobes, without the BSA, they will bring their girlfriends along! And let's say they rescue someone, or do some service, or put out a fire, or later in life rally their platoon to level our enemies. When they do, I would like to hear the kids give a nod to "the BSA's patrol method." Beav: Campin' and hikin' are probably one of da safest things yeh can do other than couch surfing, ... I'm sure you'll agree that couch surfing has it's risks. Some of our nation's youth won't have a healthy heart past their 40th year because they aren't out hiking and camping. Now, there's a suit worth paying a lawyer for!

E.A. - This is something that nobody finds embarrassing, thus there is no article in Scouting Mag explaining the importance of the change. Everyone else - Let's make it clear that not every patrol qualifies to do an over-nighter on their own. In fact none in my troop ever has. (More because they were over-busy rather than unprepared.) But, this is what we hold up to the boys as a goal. It's how a patrol leader knows for sure "I have arrived." So if my boys pull a stunt like demanding to go off into the woods on their own for the night, I'll review their plan and tell them that they are uninsured (because, really, that's the first thing on their minds) but given that they had a solid plan, I'd tell them and their parents that I'd definitely not stay home and sulk that night. Nudge nudge wink wink. Why? Because if an 18 year old can go off to fight for our country. Our country needs 18 year olds who can pull their team together. WAKWIB - A patrol of 8 girls hiking 10 miles by themselves to a state park and spending the night with no adult supervision? It happens, just not in BSA or GSA. And, frankly, I would feel more comfortable with my daughter in that situation than on a shopping tour with a couple of adults in The Big Apple. Or a mixed gender patrol of 14 year olds doing the same? Well it's no secret that Venturing requires "adult association" because of the fear of fornication, and that's why I'm not afraid to work the program. But are our kids any more at risk than dropping them off at the mall? Anyway, "coedification" is no excuse. If troops were co-ed, stipulating that patrols be unisex if they intend to overnight would undermine the patrol method less than requiring adults to be present.

Our council already had our old TP application in Xcel spreadsheet format. So the online operation is same as usual. (Some of my computers are "vintage" systems and don't do the pdf's as well, but that's alright.) Some inconvenient changes: Our old TP accepted a committee member's signature. The new one requires committee chair. (So much for delegation.) This is offset by an electronic signature method. Member No is not something I kept handy. My youth officers aren't the best at tracking such things. Information for each day of the tour: not always realistic as some discussed above. The simplest itinerary our crew has is depart, arrive at insertion point, hike/raft/climb/sail each day as conditions permit, arrive at extraction point, return. Things I like I'm all for maps, etc ... as long as councils can accept that the older the group, the greater the likelihood of plans changing once they are out of cell-phone contact. The unit single point of contact.

As I mention in another thread. At roundtable our DE, introduced the tour plan and insisted it was to be filed for any gathering outside of your regular meeting location. I lit into him in front of everyone (and I really like this guy). Do you have any idea how many crew meetings are at local coffee shops? My VP-admin is going to love this!

This is patently obscene. I guess if my boys are going on patrol for real, they will have to leave the Troop. Oh, and if me and my buddy are the only Venturing dads who want to take our daughters backpacking, we'll just leave the crew for the day. At roundtable our DE, introduced the tour plan and insisted it was to be filed for any gathering outside of your Charter org. location. I lit into him in front of everyone (and I really like this guy). Do you have any idea how many crew meetings are at local coffee shops?

Become a crew advisor, then you get youth who are really apologetic that they can't fit it all in and can't recharter (or the young lady who's mom is wigged out by the co-ed thing and won't let her join). I reply "as long as you're not robbing liquor stores to buy drugs, I'll be proud of you." Still, deep down, there's a little piece of you that's heartbroken.

I know I'm pushing upstream on this. But, if indeed the act is no longer offensive, then "homosexual" or "Sodomite" should do. There's no need to hide behind "gay" (as if grandma's ears would be less scandalized), and in turn no one should be relegated to the status of "faggot" (as if anyone thinks we still burn heretics). Maybe in a few decades when one of our boys are over in England and someone asks him for a "fag", he'll make the appropriate connection. Well this is fagging me out, and I still have roundtable tonight, so ta ta for now.

My son did not attend a single MB clinic. But, I made it clear that he was to meet MBC's at their convenience, not his. He did rely on troop counselors and summer camp. He partialed a lot. There were some times when he effectively earned a MB (e.g., climbing) while on vacation, but never mailed the blue card his SM signed for him to the outfitter! He passed on the badge! He still got his bird. He didn't get it at 15, but I really think he enjoyed the journey. And, I'm very proud that his Eagle has the same "polish" as mine.

If it weren't for scouting I'd probably be doing more church, and just as burned out and abused. But even in this program, I have to constantly say no. I feel like such a heel because I've put off signing up as a Merit Badge Counselor for years. But every time I consider it, I think about how I'm counselling boys and girls to be youth leaders! Yes, I love my hobbies, but not so much that I want to fill out one more piece of paperwork to do them! If a kid wants to learn from me, great. If he/she wants a patch, they will have to make a few calls to the many counselors in our district. Likewise for District Comittee's. I love the organizational charts, they really are pretty. But it's to the point where that one meeting a month might be the hour a Troop, Crew, or VOA officer might need to touch base with me. So unless I see something in it for my youth (and I think I'm pretty generous when factoring in indirect benefits), I'm not making the trade-off.

I refuse to relegate any part of this vast and wonderful language to vulgarity simply because once upon a time people relegated homosexuals to little more that "wood for the bonfire." When I tell my boys to gather faggots for the evening's ceremonies, they know not to give me guff. Being a quintessential gay white male, I insist we take celebration seriously! -- NEFS* *No Euphemisms for Sodomy

momOf2: In deference to our Charter Org., I would not hesitate to tell a couple who hasn't tied the knot to bring separate tents. Or, if they would rather: not put up a tent at all and sleep under the open sky with me. (Oh wait, then I'd be sharing the Almighty's tent with them ... what to do?) I think the OP's problem is that a co-leader judged him/her rather than listened. It's one thing to say, "Hey there's a YP problem here and I'd like to help you fix it before all the cubbies are settled in." It's another to fly off the handle and think that an event organizer is part of the great liberal conspiracy and make a stink to the entire district!

BOR's shouldn't include current events quizzes, but ... It's important to know what's on boys' minds. That includes how they feel about events going on in the world around them. Some of our boys have shown a lot of insight in both community and scouting issues.

That reminds me, in many tribal societies, the woman builds the home, butchers the game, tans hides, carries water (sometimes more on their heads than guys have ever carried on their backs), lights fires, etc ... So while guys may need to grow up with male role models, they also need to learn to respect the women in their lives. That's why I think female ASM's and SM's are needed, as long as they can tone down the (s)mothering behavior! Moms who've camped with us have managed to do this, and I think it's helped boys to actually work on that "mystique."

I bet the SMs' conversation went something like this ... SM1: "So, I guess those girls were practicing some wilderness survival skills this weekend." SM2: "Yep. At least our boys spent the morning on EDGE. One of these days, they'll be able to teach them a thing or two." SMT224 - thanks for keeping the girls sharp!

Sorry BPT. Didn't mean to go all conspiracy theory on you. I can't quote the boy exactly, but I was waiting form him to say one of the four words (especially since he was concerned about seeing it as a requirement), and he didn't. I don't think he was purposefully trying to avoid it. For "explain" he said something like "I told him how to do it." I just generally find that most boys up for Life have developed good intuition about teaching. I don't think knowing an acronym helps teach any better. I do think it could lead someone to teach worse. (Because there's no reminder about the handbook.)

All depends on who pushes the paperwork and how,

This is so simple. I don't see why everyone wants to fight it. What BDPT00 failed to mention was that he knows full well that some of us are actively promoting objectively superior methods ... http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=291125&p=3 Just had a conversation tonight with a candidate for Life Scout who was concerned about this requirement being "slipped in". I asked him to tell us who he taught what last and how he did it. He described EDGE to a tee without using one of those words. I said I'd pass him. The SM said he still had to know the acronym. I explained to him why we disagreed: That I contend that any sufficient method would 1) Not require knowledge of the English language to remember. 2) Enforce the need to read the handbook. He said "Oh yeah, EDGE does lack anything about reference." (His words not mine, people.) SOMEBODY PROMOTE THAT BOY TO TRAINER BEFORE HE GETS SOME TEACHING-SKILL-STUNTING ACRONYM IN HIS HEAD!!!!