qwazse

Not jumping on your case SP. E73, talk to your council about getting as many of your shooting instructors NRA certified. This is a huge bottleneck for any scouts who want to go shooting as a troop or a patrol. It is possible that your council will require NRA certification before accepting an individual as a MB counselor. And, brace yourself, similar certification from the NAA may soon be required from any expert on bowstrings and fletchings. As for the details: somebody asked someone else to make a rule. And this is what you get. It's not getting changed back without much pain. But, if you think it will be better for the kids, start the crusade by giving a call to the national office. (Now everyone who's tried this can jump!)

Tell your DE your troop hasn't saturated (reached all the 12-17 year olds in town who could be scouts), and because you'll jump through paperwork hoops for him, he'll jump through recruiting hoops for you. Your boys need to do a couple of p.r. service projects. Here are some ideas: - Build a pioneering "gatway" on the roadside into town. Weave "Welcome to ___, Troop ###" in the lashings. - Help the veterans place flags on Memorial day. - Hold a father-son event, like a fishing contest. - Provide color guard at the opening High School Baseball game. - Get a picture of your boys and the SM at a campout in the local paper. - Offer to hold a flag retirement service on Flag Day. Have your boys pick their three favorites and go for it. (Pick three because in all likelihood two will fall through.) These can also involve your Pack. The point is, you want people in town asking their boys (or young ladies asking their boyfriends -- it happens), "Why aren't you in that troop?"

Marriage has its adavantages. One of those is learning to say "I'm sorry" -- even when your sure you're right. Your "English only" adults owe the chatty Polish moms an apology. Not because what you think would help them and their boys "get with program" was necessarily wrong, but because you really do want them to feel welcome and your complaints about the language made things worse, not better. You do want things to get better, right? Then encourage each Anglo mom to invite each Polish mom over for dinner, or to go dress shopping, or a simple play date. You may offer to take their husbands (or other male family, they're single moms) fishing. It takes years, sometimes, for people to feel comfortable talking in a language they have never learned from their youth. You could offer $1000 and they wouldn't get it. Offer friendship, and they'll do it in a couple of months. Besides, that's the only way you're gonna find out if there's any real dish about the Cubmaster!

Yep, this would have come in handy for youth to know on several occasions. But, it's not that the youth that I'm thinking of weren't trained -- so, dS15, your real goal is to bring it the YPT points home. I think you tell the kids up front: "I'm teaching you straight from the book because this is what we adults have to learn. You need to know how to expect us to behave, but you also need to know how YOU need to handle things." If the camp director is around to lay out how he would implement YPT among staff, it would help nail your talking points to something practical.

Yep, your troop can block advancement on so many levels until the boy shapes up. Nuff said. Mom's family Eagles? Ask her to call Uncle or Grampa and see if they'll come camp with the boy.

So, Scout Mom, your son "outsmarted" the bureaucracy without knowing. Star and Life ranks are managed by your troop, so if the troop decides it needs an LNT Instructor, and a boy who has been trained "unofficially" steps up and serves his unit, it's an official position. The Eagle application, requires the boy to report: - His date of birth, - MB's earned in his scouting career, - Date Life Rank Was Earned, - An approved and completed service project while Life, - Nationally approved positions of responsibility held while Life. - A completed Eagle Scoutmaster Conference A council has a responsibility to validate all of those before forwarding to National. So if your boy is doing a unique POR, make sure you and your SM are clear with your council's advancement chairman that everything is on the up-and-up.

Well, thanks everyone for taking this thread down a beaten path. We all agree that Eagle has it's perks. Let's just keep in mind that our goal is not to give boys "perks", but award boys who measure up.

My opinion differs from E92's. Be very careful of offering to do anything "just this once". You'll waste no more time if your SPL's first PLC is a little rocky and you coach him afterword (or, give the SPL the first 15 minutes of the meeting and ask him to hand it over to you for the last 5). Think of it this way: your SPL has 12 months (maybe 6 if you have your way with biannual elections) let's assume that that means 50 meetings (including crackerbarrels at camp) and maybe 25 PLC's. (Those are large numbers, but I'm rounding.) Consider every one of those where he's not front-and-center as a squandered leadership opportunity. One PLC where you are in charge is 4% of the PLC's that you miss out on listening and guiding your boy. (That percentage is the minimum. It'll be larger if numbers of meetings are fewer.) I may catch flack for telling a youth to skip the "Demonstrate" in EDGE, but keep in mind that your SPL has seen meetings before, he just needs to find the style that will work with his PL's. And, as you may know from my other posts, I believe a book in the hand can be very enabling. Enjoy the JASM gig. I'm sure you'll do a fine job.

I can imagine a situation where a boy may request FOS. For example, if and FOS-supported summer camp was his only vacation and maybe he went on a campership, this could be his way of "giving back" or shining a light on a program that brought him to where he was. Eagles have full reign over the format of the ceremony. In principle, most boys stick to whatever traditions their troop has. I'm glad yours was a touching moment, and I hope many more boys with think to invite you to theirs!

After several incidents which lead folks in our troop to part ways -- and an inability to get certain scouts to go check out the new troop -- I think we get the Calvin! Oldest son fessed up to mom that during a backpacking trip he found himself explaining to his amased college buddies "well this how my dad taught me ..." Gimme points for not replying to mom, "See isn't it good we didn't waste vacation time on cruises?"

ES2010, Here's the "dirty little secret" about boy-led. As soon as it comes together, that group of boys moves up or on or out and you're starting all over again. On the other hand, that's what makes it fun. For example, our SM assigned patrols. For a couple months they would sound of Patrol 1, Patrol 2, Patrol 3. Every time, I would yell, "Are we in cub scouts? Dens have numbers, not patrols!" It took them a while to catch on. Still no flags. But at least the PL's are starting to work a little better together. They actually have appetizing meals planned for the next campout. For your meetings, I have two words: Dodge Ball or maybe these two: British Bulldog or more generally: Opening Activity Here's another: Sing (Do guys still do that? You know, it's what those little folks inside the MP3's do when they're not cussing.) I have little patience for meetings that go over 20 minutes, so there's no reason to expect your boys to tolerate 90 well. You literally could accomplish a PLC in part of the time you have troop meetings. So give your boys a chance to have a little fun before flags. At the 60-minute mark, dismiss the troop (younger boys could have SM conferences or boards of review while they wait for their parents to come), pull your youth leaders aside (as JASM you may have to bring a chocolate bar or some other officers privilege) and do a "what went well, what didn't go well, what should we do differently" review of the meeting. You'll have to put your opinions on the back-burner for this, the goal is just to get your key guys listening to each other. After a couple of these "on the fly" PLC's, you may get the boys figuring out if the "two knots a night" routine needs revamping.

And this is why we can't have an English exam for citizenship, too few of us know how to speak it in the first place! Actually, this happens in other languages too. For a while I lived in a town in Italy where the word for "little boy" or "little girl" was a patent obscenity in standard Italian. Other Italians seemed used to this peculiarity, but for the folks who learned Italian someplace else it was mortifying hearing the mama's shout F-s, come home dinners ready!

May not be your case, but I know some folks who saw their "you're-my-only-unit UC" as intrusive ... sort of an SM-emeritus. Probably if that fella had 3 other units to attend to, he could have balanced out that impression. On the other hand, the SM may have just been taking things a little too seriously. Don't know how you guys would factor any of that into the numbers game!

Gunny, Sarcasm noted. Sometimes it sinks in when I try to remind adults that for a brand to be worth anything it needs to be defended. So it's our responsibility to make sure Johnny-come-lately with the bad attitude does not tarnish the brand by getting it undeservedly. Edad, I remind youth that it's not about the medal, it's about the character that causes others to award you that medal. If you don't earn the award, simply maintain good character and eventually you'll get whatever benefits the bird on your chest would have got you. Sherm, I agree, First Class should be the BSA "seal of approval". A boy should be proud to put that on their resume. But even if it were so, I bet we'd still see these down-to-the-wire scramblings for FC, because sooner or later someone would make it about the military pay grade or scholarship or whatever.

Thanks for the feedback. I guess we're pretty much agreed on the "inform, but don't babysit" 17y.o.'s. Is it about leadership? Or about outdoors? Well, my oldest just came from a spring break backpacking trip with his college fellowship. He got the fire started (without fuel or starters) after a wet first day. He helped his team ford streams safely on the last day. He helped in the decision to call the trip early because conditions were not getting any better and the newbies were taking a beating. Was he showing leadership, or just outdoors skills? Don't know, but I think he pulled off that caring adult thing quite nicely.

We had an Eagle candidate recently who butted up against his 18th birthday and missed his bird because of a "90 days recording" requirement on one of the merit badges. At his Life scoumaster conference (just barely 6 months earlier) we warned him to start those early. He worked on his project and completed it on day 363 of his 17th year, then ran around chasing counselors on day 364. I guess he was under the impression that he could "cook the books" on the MB. He kept telling us he had things under control, when deep down we suspected he was fooling himself. Anyway, when do you Scoutmasters tell the kid it's over and any badges earned or projects done are "just for fun"? - Obviously, if a boy earns Life at age 17, 6 months, and 1 day, we tell the boy it's time to have fun and not sweat the medal stuff. - But, at age 17, 9 months, and 1 day, do you call it if the boy can't produce a chart for a yet-to-be-earned Family Life or Personal Management or Personal Fitness with at least day 1 filled out? -- Or, do you let the boy a blue card keep going to the MBC so he at least learns something in the process. Then, count on the MBC to give him a little tough love when it's the day before his 18th birthday and only 89 days or fewer of his chart are completed? Committee chairs chime in too, because yours is the last signature on those applications! MBC's I don't want to hear from you if you're inclined to give a little slack, but I do want to hear from you if a boy comes to you with no chance of completing a badge but willing to work on a partial.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

224, Unless someone from your troop wants to take over the district activity committee, don't expect change. Lot's of troops play fast and loose with their schedule, so there's probably no motivation for the folks planning events to change. Instead I'm suggesting pulling little from the "if you can't beat 'em ..." playbook. I'd stay the course with your troop's meeting day and delegate a committee memger or ASM to attend RT. Some guys on district committee "don't do E-mail" so there's no point in even asking these hard working fellas to get you advance notice. So train your CM or ASM to be a "taker" when it comes to info. If someone even hints "hey we're thinking of doing X in the fall", your guy/gal should hound them for the usual "who", "what", "where", "how". Every month your RT attendee needs to compile a list of "things in the works" at the district level and hand it off to the SPL. The following week, your PLC reviews that list and decides if anything on it warrants a change in the troop calendar. Yes, this may mean you'll have to flex for something your boys decide they really want to do. But hopefully this will give you a little more than that one month lead time. And, when your district commissioner talks about not seeing your troop for a while you can say, "I ran it by my boys the week after it was announced, they didn't bite!"

Bottom line: the IH and COR(s) need to be on the same page with respect to the adults they let lead the units. If one of them feels uncomfortable with the selection, the issue is probably a non-starter. Of course, you have the right to get both of them in the same room and have a sit-down so you understand everyone's thinking before you spin your wheels to suggest another adult leader. Don't expect to get an answer you like -- just a little more clarity so this doesn't drag on for many months.

Looks like you got some solid advice. And your story seems a lot like mine. Adults in the troop have really worked hard to build up inventory. So half our trips we use patrol boxes, half we travel light. Our crew/troop operate pretty closely together. But, in spite of many offers, the crew has opted not to "own" any of the troop gear. One of our goals is to get the youth to invest in gear that will carry them through the college years. So my role as crew advisor: 1. I don't put a hitch on my van. This spares us the temptation of borrowing the troop trailer. 2. I train crew QM to "listen" for what youth need, "look" for avid backpackers who may have hand-me-downs or loaners. 3. My committee keeps a close eye on those garage sales. 4. Thus our troop QM is more of a gear keeper (configuring camp boxes, etc ...). While our crew QM is more of a librarian (trying to keep equipment in circulation). This covers the youth who want to try hiking before throwing down mucho $$ on stuff they'll only use once. Also, most of the boys that come from the troop have the gear they need and some skills to teach new crew members. I suspect your troop will operate in some middle ground between what our troop and crew does. The real issue: determining what you will maintain as community gear and what each boy needs to maintain in personal gear.

Perhaps it would be more comparable to offer you political science students a problem in integrating an equation or figuring the molar valence of a chmical compound! [sic] Perhaps just ask them to spell "chemical!" [sorry, I know keyboards are harsh on spelling. But, I couldn't resist.] I had a general studies friend take a "Science in Science Fiction" class and it got pretty deep, but he really liked it and got a lot of the math because it was put in a literary framework. I would say science questions from the New York Times would be fair game for most liberal arts majors. I do like the idea of throwing local as well as national figures in the mix. Every now and then one of our ASM's will throw out a quiz question to the boys. They have a week to bring back an answer. Usually only one boy makes the effort. Recent ones: Define Alluvial Define Depreciation Lands What Does the Moon Smell Like? Each of these were in the context of some current event.

BD First off I am not naive enough to believe my boy scouts are abstaining from sex.....So them bringing their girl friends along is irrelevant......and what makes it an official patrol outing anyhow????? Why couldn't they just go camping on their own.....we have patrols participate in paintball outside of scouting???? I agree about the promiscuity, but even fornicators need a break from the routine! A rough idea of what is and isn't an patrol outing: 1. PL tells me it's a patrol outing. 2. I see on the plan everyone in Patrol X of Troop ### is invited. 3. If the girlfriends are on the manifest, I tell them it doesn't qualify as a patrol outing. (They may report to the Crew ### President, get officers' approval, arrange for chaperons trained in Venturing youth protection, schedule a crew outing, apply the age restrictions.) 4. If fornicating is in the plan, don't call it a BSA outing. The point is we should PROUD to put the BSA seal of approval those boys who overnight as a patrol. We should not have to play semantics with the term "appropriate". We should have the freedom to rest easy at home having filed a solid tour plan on behalf of eight boys who are spending the night in an idyllic location 10 miles away. PL should be the recognized tour leader; the APL, assistant tour leader. The SM's signature should be all that's needed on the bottom.

BD - I just don't see it as a big deal. Sorry the adults go and simply don't associate with the boys and let them do there thing. Let me spell out "the big deal" first in terms of practical and then in terms of prinicple. Say you're one of those troops who camps the first of every month. You got 4 patrols, and by some stretch of youth leadership each has become a high perfoming team. You have two adult leaders who make excellent chaperons (down to the mythical 300'). So at the troop campout crakerbarrel, each PL comes to you with perfect hike/camp plans -- down to parent approvals -- for the weekend after next (the only one available because of sports, service projects, and fundraiser schedules). Each overnight is in a different location 5 miles from the troop meeting place in opposite directions. Tell me, which patrol gets the blessing of the coveted adult leadership? Alternatively, each patrol arranges a perfect overnight on a different week. Tell me, do you really expect the spouses of those two adults to part with them EVERY WEEKEND OF THE MONTH? Or do you really believe troop boy-led has EIGHT EXTRA ADULTS to share the burden of extra outings? So practically, the patrol method becomes unworkable. The principle here: "Prove yourself capable, then achieve your potential!" If those badges boys earn are indeed proof, then the boys will rise to the potential. The only question is: will they do it with or without the BSA? Oh, and you coediphobes, without the BSA, they will bring their girlfriends along! And let's say they rescue someone, or do some service, or put out a fire, or later in life rally their platoon to level our enemies. When they do, I would like to hear the kids give a nod to "the BSA's patrol method." Beav: Campin' and hikin' are probably one of da safest things yeh can do other than couch surfing, ... I'm sure you'll agree that couch surfing has it's risks. Some of our nation's youth won't have a healthy heart past their 40th year because they aren't out hiking and camping. Now, there's a suit worth paying a lawyer for!

E.A. - This is something that nobody finds embarrassing, thus there is no article in Scouting Mag explaining the importance of the change. Everyone else - Let's make it clear that not every patrol qualifies to do an over-nighter on their own. In fact none in my troop ever has. (More because they were over-busy rather than unprepared.) But, this is what we hold up to the boys as a goal. It's how a patrol leader knows for sure "I have arrived." So if my boys pull a stunt like demanding to go off into the woods on their own for the night, I'll review their plan and tell them that they are uninsured (because, really, that's the first thing on their minds) but given that they had a solid plan, I'd tell them and their parents that I'd definitely not stay home and sulk that night. Nudge nudge wink wink. Why? Because if an 18 year old can go off to fight for our country. Our country needs 18 year olds who can pull their team together. WAKWIB - A patrol of 8 girls hiking 10 miles by themselves to a state park and spending the night with no adult supervision? It happens, just not in BSA or GSA. And, frankly, I would feel more comfortable with my daughter in that situation than on a shopping tour with a couple of adults in The Big Apple. Or a mixed gender patrol of 14 year olds doing the same? Well it's no secret that Venturing requires "adult association" because of the fear of fornication, and that's why I'm not afraid to work the program. But are our kids any more at risk than dropping them off at the mall? Anyway, "coedification" is no excuse. If troops were co-ed, stipulating that patrols be unisex if they intend to overnight would undermine the patrol method less than requiring adults to be present.

Our council already had our old TP application in Xcel spreadsheet format. So the online operation is same as usual. (Some of my computers are "vintage" systems and don't do the pdf's as well, but that's alright.) Some inconvenient changes: Our old TP accepted a committee member's signature. The new one requires committee chair. (So much for delegation.) This is offset by an electronic signature method. Member No is not something I kept handy. My youth officers aren't the best at tracking such things. Information for each day of the tour: not always realistic as some discussed above. The simplest itinerary our crew has is depart, arrive at insertion point, hike/raft/climb/sail each day as conditions permit, arrive at extraction point, return. Things I like I'm all for maps, etc ... as long as councils can accept that the older the group, the greater the likelihood of plans changing once they are out of cell-phone contact. The unit single point of contact.

As I mention in another thread. At roundtable our DE, introduced the tour plan and insisted it was to be filed for any gathering outside of your regular meeting location. I lit into him in front of everyone (and I really like this guy). Do you have any idea how many crew meetings are at local coffee shops? My VP-admin is going to love this!