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bt - Choosing the right number of partners is part of the hike plan, isn't it? I see nothing precluding family hikes. However, I would encourage the boy to team up with another youth or two in his community to work on this. They might appreciate the company. (You didn't hear me say girlfriends, but ...) As Beav's post indicates, summer may be no less perilous than winter, and a partner who can't see identify heat stroke or hypothermia would do you no good. So you want to teach the boy to aim for quality, not a certain number.

Peri - References are a fairly modern thing. They require written language. We've been teaching as a species long before we had writing. .... (I've seen no evidence that cave paintings were instructional.) Well, since we don't know who was allowed to look at the paintings, we don't know how instructional they were. I'm only speculating there. So, yes as a species with implicitly EDGE-type methods, we all got along quite nicely before cuneiform. (at least until the ripe old age of 40, the half of us who didn't die in infancy, but who knew it there were ways to beat that gambit?) Modern, as in civilization-as-we-know-it modern? Just a generation (600 B.C.) before the fall of Jerusalem to Babylon, Josiah instuted what would later become the synagogue model of teaching young men in the absence of a temple. From that point forward Jewish (and Christian) history was riddled with the use of references for instruction. Pliny the Elder's natural histories were so first century, but people refered to them. Lost to us was a treatise of his on "Throwing a Javelin from a Horse," but I'm pretty sure the Roman calvary gave it a read -- much to their enemies' dismay. Arabs (and many other Eastern cultures) were very referential in their learning. (Read one or two Hadiith and you'll get the idea. Each is a saying so-and-so son of so-and-so brother of so-and-so heard from the Prophet.) They built hospitals and astrolabes and wrote travel documentaries and propogated symbolic arithmetic. For Europe, on the other hand, it was The Dark Ages. Folks were mostly illiterate and taught non-referentially. Life was on the EDGE, literally. I'm pretty sure that I don't want to throw my kids back in the dark ages. We teach our own kids skills (using similar methods to EDGE) long before they can use a reference. Maybe until they're eight -- and that's only if we discount TV as a reference. After that they get a book from the library or an article online, and start explaining to ME what I should be doing! I'll grant reference require's literacy. But I think that's the point. If a boy knows "reference" is an important part of teaching a skill, he'll know that his ability to read and interpret are important parts of learning a skill.

And Beav, I'm not joking. I decided to get off of my high horse and make sure I understand what people are thinking when they promote this "made up poppycock". Why? Because my scouts are critical thinkers, and sooner or later one or two of them will ask the "what's the point" question. Even if I don't believe it, I want to be able to give them some useful background so that they know why some people do.

Peri, Thanks for the article. It's not exactly what I wanted but it was very insightful. But here's the rub ... based on your last comment -it's really no different than people have been teaching other people from the beginning of humankind (except of course for the catchy mnemonic) Well, actually it is. Because from the beginning of humankind we've been making references (cave paintings, wall diagrams, statues, books, blogs, ...) that were central to skill acquisition. Or, at least we thought they were. By omitting "reference" (or handbook, in the case of teaching scout skills) EDGE implies that that step is non-essential. The question remains, were we being inefficient by telling kids to involve reading a reference as part of skill acquisition/imparting? Will kids be taught just as well not learning to take that step at some point in their teaching process? Further questions are: Is EDGE too much of a deviation from deDICT for the sake of maintaining an nmemonic? Do kids without the mnemonic teach as successfully as kids who've been given it? OGE, I guess you've figured out that I'm interested in the teaching method. (BTW, I'm the kid who learned all of the FC knots from the book before my first meeting -- except taught-line hitch.)

On the bright side, you got 13 more crossovers than we did this year.

Does anyone have a bibliography on the EDGE method? I've decided to stop being an armchair skeptic until I've learned how it does or does not improve a person's teaching ability. I tried Google scholar. "Trainer's EDGE" comes up with a couple of books on computer and distance instruction. "EDGE Method" brings up lots of articles in physics and math. Nothing to do with pedagogy. Is it out there under another name? What would really be interesting is some type of randomized trial. What would be gravy is if the trial involved 12 - 15 year old instructors and learners.

Okay people, this has nothing to do with my utter and complete disdain for EDGE. If I have not kept up with my water rescues, someone may die. Same with paddle safety, chainsaws, etc ... We all forget details, so being reminded every couple of years is a good idea. Each fine point remembered removes us one degree from calamity. If your not up to date with the best dog-and-pony-show you can do for your trainees, will they die? Granted, I've not formally taken trainer's edge, so maybe I'm missing something. But do you guys on the training side of things feel like refresher courses every few years are essential? Isn't doing training frequently and getting evaluated what you really need?

Tell 'em that if traumatized son wants to bring up the issue, he'll have potentially 6 SM conferences and BORs to do so. If scars are too deep, he may remind us of them in his speech at his Eagle ceremony.

Our past two trips no scouts capsized. Wished I could've said the same for adults. The second guessing is endless. The best you could do is listen to the SM and understand his "risk equation" as much as it can be understood. Sometimes hugging a shoreline has disadvantages, such as submerged logs and rocks that will quickly throw a boat bobbing in high waves. Sometimes guys make bonehead moves. That's why preparedness on other levels (clothes and a drybag) makes a difference.

Picasa (i.e. Google Photos) gives me just enough to be dangerous. My crew youth use it pretty well.

Sounds like Barry's approach would fit well with the kids you have who are really gung-ho. You may have to challenge your committee to be flexible with this "side show", but more likely they will be thrilled that you want to offer a specialty program. One more thing, on your first hike, bring a guide book or maps for three options for your next tour. If your BP-ers are like mine, they are all ears about options while resting by mile markers -- not so much at meetings.

I guess what I like about Venturing and OA programs is the culture clash that is inevitible when youth A and youth B discover their respective troops have not really emphasized a particular method or another ... "You mean you really are excited about silver epaulets?" "You actually shop and cook for your crew?" "Woa! You have Mr./Mrs. ___ on speed dial?" [Or, whatever they call it these days.] "Wait, you're going hiking AFTER SUNSET????" "You'd rather camp by yourself than with another patrol in your troop?" (B.T.W., that'd be one of my boys. We perpetually ad hoc.) So, whatever your position (pick-and-choose, prioritize, in-for-a-penny-in-for-a-pound), make sure your boys get some exposure to other units so you can hear from them which method needs to be ramped up in your unit.

Any idea why Trainer's EDGE would expire? [Resisting temptation. Resisting. Failing....]Because it is a non-referential method of pedagogy; therefore, you are dependent on on someone else to remind you of it LEST YOU FORGET!!!!!

As long as the target's non-human ...

G! Sounds like a solid plan to me. Except the President and VP's are youth positions. That's right, have the kids be responsible for filling out the tour plan for next month's activity and getting it back to you for your's and the CC/COR's approval. You want the adults to be available as consultants in their area of expertise. Mine literally sit and wait for a youth to contact them before they act. Then they'll outline with the youth what needs to be done to make an activity happen. They look at the crew calendar, and take turns serving as chaperons. Every now and then they show up with chocolate chip cookies. Sharing with a troop is always a hassle. But think of it this way: if your crew did this with no input from the troop, would you earn as much? Can you leverage the efforts of some of the scouts since the funds are going to be split? (Like the older boys say, the younger scouts have the "cute factor" in their favor.) My 2 cents: let the troop have the trailer and half the supplies! Venturers pack light! Regardless (and this is where that "wild ride" comes in), let your youth know the issues (try to explain it in 3 minutes or less), tell them you are going to leave the room for 5 minutes and when you return, you want their decision about going forward with the fundraiser if they have to go halvsies with the troop. Even without having to split earnings, mine all decided that they could get part-time jobs or work summer camp buy up or get handed down gear and pool their resources for activities.

Having had to instruct 1st year through 3rd year scouts to finally conquer the intimidation of the swim test, I found the picture very natural. (Although, not as photgenic that lifeguard.) The point is to get you in the frame of mind of the kid who can't seem to pass that test. It's a strange situation. You don't fit in. Nothing feels right. There's this guy who is supposed to help you, but you're stuck in some kind of limbo waiting him to give you an instruction that your body has no clue how to follow! Most boys have no problem with this situation, but every year there's that odd one or two -- or that odd year when you have a number of boys -- who can't seem to beat the headgame and make their body work for them. If you were never phased by an aquatics challenge, the picture will do you the favor of capturing the creepiness of it all. And that, my friends, is what will keep an otherwise bouyant body from covering 100 yards.

The next thing the G2SS should include ... A STRONG encouragement for patrols to plan overnights in the absence of adults. And directions on how to use the BSA tour plan as a tool to organize their trip, with the PL and the APL signing off as tour leaders, the SPL instead of the charter org rep or committee chair, and ultimately the SM as, well, him/herself.

Yo, G! Welcome aboard! This section isn't as active, but in proportion to the size of the program, I think that makes sense. A lot of what gets talked about in other sections is pretty useful (especially the youth leadership tips). I gotta warn you about some stuff that's not in the training manual. Some of it was from browsing this site, but most was from when our crew came online 5 years ago. You will need ... 1. coffee. 2. afternoon naps. 3. to be willing to negotiate things like light's out, use of electronic devices, uniforms, ceremonies, etc.... 3. to coordinate events with other crews. (Give special attention to the select few youth who form your council's venturing officers association.) 4. to be willing to let the kids fail. 5. to pick up only the pieces that are really important. Above all, to be in for the ride of your life. As far as committees go, I've seen advisors working under every configuration. One for both units, one with crew and troop subcommittees, two harmonious committees, two highly discordant committees. I'm not tellin' which is mine, because they all manage to be great and dysfunctional at the same time. My, bottom line, get 'em all trained, and get each taking a turn getting out on the trail with the fine young people you got. Oh, and one last thing ... get out of the paperwork business! Teach your VP-program to complete the tour plans! I'll leave the venturing youth and advisors to spout off a few more of their lessons from the school of hard knocks! Q

Base camp?????? that is car camping with hiking. The point of Backpacking beyond, seeing cool stuff is to cover lots of miles. You could slack pack from a moving base camp....but again whats the fun of that. The point, BD, is to give the guys who want to work on racking up miles and breaking in gear opportunities to be with the rest of their troop for part of the weekend. It is also to show the youth who opt to stay at camp to see a Backpacking team arrive in the evening, set-up, eat, sleep, and break camp before half the boys get moving in the morning. Buffalo, if you add more activities to the schedule, some boys will have to be selective. The only requirements I would make is that to go on an advanced hike, a boy has to complete a certain number of shakedown hikes. As I describe above, shakedown hikes can be incorporated with other troop activities.

... I'm sure if you looked hard enough, you could find some Polish food that is not good. ... No need to stretch the truth to be conciliatory here.

scout - I'd be a little more drastic than what the above have suggested. I'd go to your DC and say, "My troop's UC just resigned. They'll do without until we find a replacement. We don't have to worry too much ... I hear the ASM is top-notch!" If nobody comes forward, you can still do UC-type stuff for your SM, you just wont be "wearing the patch" around him when you to it.

The best way to do this is to choose locations that have a basecamp along a trail that the backpackers can hike into/out of while the non-hikers work on various scouting skills. You may have to reshuffle your patrols for that weekend. But it inspires the non-hikers to consider taking up the sport. If you have enough leadership you can do a multitier hike in a wilderness area where one group hikes in about 3 miles, the other 6, the other 8, the other 12. This gives some of the older boys some serious planning to do with "insertion" and "extraction" locations and times. Sometimes just give the whole troop a backpacking trip where groups start on opposite ends of the trail, pick a stopping point 6 miles in for one group and 10 miles in for the other. The point of doing these coordinated trips is to free up the schedule for the months where the backpackers do have that open weekend that the rest of the troop doesn't. My crew fills that need. There are boys who want to hike more frequently than their troop does, so they set up trips with us. Your older boys could look into that. Of course, that doesn't help your younger boys that much. And, bottom line, your patrols should be planning their own hikes. It may take years to get them comfortable with that, but the payoff will be huge for your backpackers in terms of a steady supply of fresh hiking partners.

It's very hard to correct older boys' attidude. Separating the adults from the boys is a good idea on so many levels. Hopefully the adults will cook up a storm, hussle with thier clean-up duties, and have plenty of time left over to enjoy their outings. Patrols of 4 boys is kind of lean, so encourage them to recruit, recruit, recruit. Have a recruiter prize. (Special patch, dessert at adult's campfire with the newbie, etc ...) Contests that advantage younger boys include stretcher carries (build a stretcher carry your heaviest boy 100 yards in it). Crawling obstacle courses. And nearly any trail-to-first class skills simply because it will be fresher in their mind. But even blindfold tent pitching may come easier to whatever group performs best as a team vs. which team has the best experience. Your older boys may have caught on that SPL is a lot of work, so they may not mind putting a youngster in charge. The SM will probably assign the oldns' back to PL or give them JASM patches. The challenge of JASM is helping SPL and PL hone those leadership skills. Have the older boys made OA? I've found losing that election to be a wake-up call for a lot of boys.

DON'T introduce yourself to one unit assuming you won't need to also introduce yourself to partner units. If there's a pack, troop, and crew under the same roof, be prepared to get three different opinions on everything and everyone. DO follow-up. If you say you'll be visiting monthly, do so. If you only have time to drop in less frequently, be honest up-front. DON'T state irrelevant agendas. E.g. ... UC: "I want to make sure funds from unit X are not spent in unit Y." UL: "Has anyone given you any indication that that's happened or will happened?" UC: "No, I just want to make sure it doesn't!" The result will be ... UL to self: "Now where'd I put that static filter ..." DO get yourself invited to an outing (hike, campfire, etc ...).

Can't resist ... 2 deep is there to provide accountability ... to protect the children from predictors Because heaven help us if -- in front of impressionable youth -- an adult starts prophesying without another one present!