qwazse

Yep. You're coming up against an Eastern vs. Western definition of "belief." The Western is all intelectuall. So you give props to the unchurched kid who confesses this inward spiritual life. The Eastern is more (not all) behavioral. So the guy who acts the faith ("goes through the motions" as we judgementally call it) in the face of profound doubts gets credited as a believer. Obviously you should let the parents know as mentioned above. Right now, his actions are lining up with the oath and law, so you can count that. You don't have to bring this up with him right now, but at each SMC, counsel the boy that his thoughts are going to eventually have to line up with his actions and his words. And if he concludes he has no duty to God, advise him that he'd won't want to be in the position of taking an oath in vain. No badge of rank is worth that. I think this kind of diversity is good for the troop. It gives kids who think their religion is a slam-dunk a chance to think through the tenants of their faith. For that reason alone I wouldn't toss the kid out. Besides SM224, if you are of Christian inclination, it gives you one more thing to pray for!

And, if you stay, for the love of all that is beautiful about summer don't have pack meetings. Have pack picnics, pack participation in parades, pack flag retirement ceremony (see if there's a boy scout troop that can help with that), pack wiffle ball, hikes, fishing. Maybe even go cheer and your CC's son's ball game. (Ask if the boys could sell treats there.) Do things where you don't have to be up front like you do for the fall dog-and-pony show. Sneak your other adults to the fore. See if that attracts some other kids to join. Point is, while you have a small pack, have fun with the smallness! Then at the end of the summer, tell the CC that he needs to order a bunch of those summer participation stars.

Yep. Your stuck. The CC's job is to rally adult leaders. It is possible for CM and CC to not have a good relationship and still do their jobs. BUT the CC needs parents on committee to help him make wise decisions and you need DL's to dive into these boys' lives. If nobody's budging to lend a hand you'll never have that 5 den model with the Byzantine heirarchy the rest of us have come to love. The alternative: switch to the one room school model. T, W, B, W1's and W2's meet in one room together every week. Ask the parents to take a turn on a topic/project each week (start with the ESL's). Promise you will stand along side them. If all they do is teach the kids a song in their first language, you've won! If you have a "cookie" mom. TELL HER SHE'S TEACHING THE BOYS TO BAKE. Teach the parents to fill out forms or tracking sheets on the boys. Every fourth week, all the parents come and you have a pack meeting. Akward? Yes. Worth not having to commute? That's up to you.

Pack - Methinks qwazse may be tiptoeing (tipsytoeing?) toward a problem? No problems here, I've had enough margin that if I didn't want to go through life stone cold sober, I could have gon off the wagon years ago. What convinced me was working at my dad's beer distributor back when kids were allowed to do that sort of thing. I helped deliver four cases to a guy whose kids I knew couldn't afford shoes on their feet. That settled it for me. I think my brothers came to similar conclusions. Dad knew what he was doing letting us work our summers there. We weren't even allowed to bring soda pop home! Some of my mottos to my kids ... - There is no TV worth more than $50. - There is no cable plan worth more then $5/month. - There is no house worth more than $150,000. Paid more than that? Take in boarders. - If it costs more than $1000 to heal a pet, it's time to put it down. - Last year's game system will do. Our men's group is reading an interesting book Balance by Swenson. It talks about some ways in which our generation has added a lot of extra expense to living. Makes me feel like I'm not the only cheapskate on the planet. That's why I cringe a little when I hear "high adventure scouting". Units that define themselves as such give parents some serious sticker shock! (We've seen them discuss it on these forums.) Yes, we do superactivities. But, I think it's just as important to conquer your backyard. If fuel costs really do drive us a little closer to home, the boys will spend lest time in a car and more time camping. I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. When the boys and girls in my crew are seen hiking through town with their packs, that's publicity. I'm makin no apologies. I'm thinkin it will prepare them for the cost concious world in which THEY they will have to live.

I'll have to point out to my troop and crew that being able to light a fire without paperwork is a unique privelage of geography and climate. Sounds like an awesome stew -- which I wouldn't share with the boys if I were you!

Our camp provided the hated checklists as well. If my SPL and PL's are not supposed to use them to sign off on things, why give me one more piece of paper? Just give li'll Johnny a woggle kit (rope and instructions for the turk's head knot). Let him figure out what he needs to get signed-off in his book. I would rather have camp staff focus on skills training and instilling pride in patrols. That's why I favor "patrol challenges" over "instructional sessions". They accomplish the same thing, but one sounds a lot less like school.

Big screen vs. big woods. Not sure who the winner is on that one. But, scouting is labor intensive. If parents have thrown all of the xtra's overboard and still need to work evenings and weekends to afford the commute to their day job, our kids have a problem. P.S. (for packsaddle) - The price of juice (because it is essential transporting water in refrigerated trucks) is climbing. There's every reason to expect it to exceed the cost of cheap alcohol. Starting to drink may be a cost-effective solution for some folks.

Thanks for taking on this responsibility. The following comes from the heart of a guy who's finally convinced his troop to do all the training for T2FC in site. I will try to be brief ... The goal is to swim upstream. To foist all of the sign-off responsibility onto the PL's (and, only as a last resort, the SM's.) Consider opening scoutcraft up to "patrol challenges". A different one each day. They could be service projects related to scoutcraft skills. They could be relays for patrols present (e.g. fastest through a knot tying challenge). Offer a totem (simple stuff, like a "wood carving kit" that's just a sawed off round of log) to each first-year for time ... 1. They bring their PL to scoutcraft, 2. The show up with their patrol flag, 3. At scout craft their PL helps them with a skill they have trouble with. If the PL is a star scout, give him an "EDGE certified" token for his Life requirement. 4. They copy the design of their patrol flag on their "wood carving kit." 5. If he finds out his PL can't remember/never learned a skill and brings him to scoutcraft and teaches it to him (thus earning the Tenderfoot EDGE requierment, which the PL can sign off on right there). Offer specific training for SM (you've already heard how some of us need it) award the youth for bringing their adult leaders in for "refreshers." Most importantly, explain that you will NOT REPORT A SINGLE SKILL TAUGHT, if the boy can't come back to camp and demonstrate the skill or participate in an activity with his SM SPL or PL observing with their own eyes, it will not get signed off. For confused adults, explain that you are trying to help them build a teaching environment that will outlast the week at camp. You get the idea. Of course, your ability to implement is a function of how many staff you have and how much of a leash your camp director gives you. For the swimming stuff, coordinate with the aquatic's director. Instruct the boy (or PL) that checking buddy tags should count as proof.

Don't mean to stir contraversy, but could you send boy with patches and new shirt to dad? Teaching boy to sew is not a bad idea. Of course, even if they do pitch in and help with the patch business, no gaurantee that the boy would remember to bring the shirt home! But, it might help increase the family's effort. Is it worth the price of a shirt?

I have been a strong proponent of local camping, leveraging the good graces of folks who have wooded property or park boards who could use some service project. Then, every few months find a location more than a few hours away. The issue is not so much cost as it was time stuck in a tin can waiting to get somewhere. What is changing is parents have to work an extra couple of hours to pay for fuel to commute. Half of our troop and crew comes from more than a couple miles to get to our meeting place. The boys who commute have to work harder to organize rides. I suspect geography will have a greater bearing on selecting a unit.

Just asking for volunteers can get you some pretty scattered den chiefs! This isn't like asking little Johnny to go to the office and run off copies on the mimeograph. The troop's reputation with your DL's is on the line, so they'd like to have a say. The common sense way this works: 1. CM informs the troop that he has X dens who need den chiefs. At this point he may inform the SPL or SM which scouts in the troop have siblings in the pack. 2. SPL discusses with SM which boys would be good candidates. This usually works very well because the SPL will have seen how the boys perform with new members in the troop. 3. At the next troop meeting, the SPL talks to the scouts then gives the CM the list of available boys. CM contacts the boys and sorts out schedules and assignments to specific dens. He then reports back to SM about which boys took up the position. A lot of times the process is less formal than this depending on the size of pack and troop. And definitly, a CM can ask for a specific boy or to bring back one of last year's chiefs. But when he does it's a good idea to get a look at the SPL's face for signs of cringing!

Odd! My swim instructor (Women's Air Corps veteran) told me it was for "advancing on the enemy position!" Look boys, there's a reason why we call it "scouting" and not "just yer average youth group."

MItBl -- For those that think Venturing is the answer to retaining these young adults its not ... I wholeheartedly agree with you on this point. And rest assured I jump down DE's cases when they use lines like "Venturing is an open market" or "we can keep our boys longer". Because it simply is not the solution to retention problems. But that doesn't mean it is not a solution. Just like restricting 18-20 y.o.s to ASM is not the solution for all the aprehensions that folks might have about someone just below drinking age being top dawg in a scouting unit. It is still a solution. My experience with most 18-20 year old ASM's is that they do great job -- one might even say they were SM-ready, until they pull a bonehead move and nobody will forgive them for it. Whereas, that boy may get a second chance in a crew or ship and the transition to leader at 21 is more rock-solid. So yeah, I tend to be universally cautious with young adult leaders well into their mid 20's. It's a lot easier to be pleasantly surprised by the "straight arrow" than to have unrealistic expectations about the whole quiver. Even though I can't put my hand on it, there is something to be said for telling everyone that our principals will have lived at least 3 years as an adult in our society.

I time my water-intake-cut-off at 2 hours before bed time. That keeps gives me enough space between latrine runs for a full nights sleep.

SF, I feel your pain man. I'm an inch taller than you and shrinking slowly. That isn't the real issue, though. I don't stretch regularly like I should ... and all that not doing the physical fit thing catches up to ya on the weekends. A 90% full air mattress can cause your back all manner of grief! I learned from the weeks camping with my wife the trouble it can cause. Try out some thermarest pads. (I'm sure your friends have them). My wife for a while needed a hospital egg-crate foam pad. It took up space, but made a difference. More importantly, my #1 woe is high wind, the solution: low profile I've taken the opposite tack from what you suggest. I wait till everyone is in bed, snap up my 30" pup tent (or lay out a tarp if I don't feel like staking) change in the dark and crawl into my bag. The pup tent gets a lot of laughs for a big guy like me, but I just explain that I'm doing some early "coffin practice." Any piece of canvas that withstands 100 mph winds earns a lot of love in my book. On a dry enough night, I just toss my pad and bag on a picnic table and change in it. Something I learned from coral reef sailing in the summer: sleep topside. That said, if a dad has space in his taj mahal, I'm not beyond free-loading.

SP: Well, how do you teach adults too? In this case, I'd give them EDGE for several reasons.Many adults are years removed from education and many of them have got on with their jobs/hobbies and have not been challenged to teach anyone a skill. My SM really appreciated learning EDGE because it gave him the confidence he needed to start instructing is PLs and counseling MBs.Many adults have learned to be critical of the written word. I use the manual for assembling new stuff about half the time. I know my father-in-law does less than that. A few of you guys testified that book-learning just isn't your thing.Most adults, even if they don't realize it, have specialized skills that aren't in your average handbook. Sometimes the guys who can teach us the most aren't all that expressive. Giving them a few steps to follow (be it EDGE, edDICT, or FERAL) and being receptive while they find their groove is all you need to unlock a font of knowledge and wisdom. But even if you don't disclose the meaning of a mysterious acronym, if you ask a guy if you could come over to his shop one morning and have him show you how to do x, I bet just by being receptive, you can make him a "professor of x" by lunch time. The acronym is just a "lucky penny". You rub it before the big game and toss it in your left pocket, and somehow it makes everything go that much better.

Bottom line: jump through what ever hoops your charter org. rep says you have to to establish guardianship. Work from there. Harsh reality: looking at every adult as potential abusers will not help you protect the boys. (The skilled predators, as Beav commented earlier, will put on a good show of complying.) Identifying signs of abuse in boys or predatory behavior in adults -- even though that usually means after the first incident -- is the closest we can come to stopping abuse. As soon as cubs are willing, encourage them to bunk with each other. You'll save on tents because you can pack a bunch of those little gompers in one! (This strategy worked well with my oldest son, but not with my youngest.)

t/s: Off to go babysit two year old twins who make seem right! Let me know what ya think. I think two-year-old twins are more than I could handle anymore! Seriously, it is very important to put the COR on notice about when you think your term will end. You should also feel free to talk to the pack parents about who can step up to the plate. It has nothing to do with the goings-on in the troop. (Well obviously it will, because the future pack CC will have a boy who hopefully crosses over someday. But the landscape may change once that bridge is crossed.) It has nothing to do with the age thing or finagling, either. Sure it would be nice to know you have a vote -- if that's what decides things you deem important. But, even if you did, it would be about time in your life to concentrate on transitions. All of us should be looking for our replacements! This is actually the normal order of operations.

Never fretted over the details. Got plenty of contractor dads who are better at coaching the boys than I. But I would say the Eagle Project is the right challenge at the right time in a boy's scouting career. It introduces the community to our boys after they have met challenges of advancing to the first five ranks. Even with our least organized boys, our community leaders never cease to tell me how they like how a project lead by a boy can pull a community together. No, they are not equal numerically. Johnny's may not be as big as Billy's but in either case it should be the biggest thing either boy has faced to date. Each should reflect the boys abilities. Each should force the boy to turn his perspective outward. It's just that simple. I guess that's why it's so complicated.

All of our boys who were den chiefs while their brothers were cubs turned out quite well. Some of them chiefed the same den as their brothers, others opted for a different den that met on the same evening. I wouldn't worry about about the other boys feeling excluded. Never seen it happen. Some only-children will probably love "borrowing" a brother for an hour once a week! If fighting is a concern (doesn't sound like it by your description), your best bet is to ask the boy point-blank if he thinks it would be better if he was with is brother's den or if he thinks it be better to work in a different den.

My best guess ... The top dawg in the unit might need to throw back a few cold ones with the biggest donors. Can't do that legally 'till the 21st b-day. (Note: I'm as temperate as they come. But, my fundraising isn't all that great either.) Actually, there is a little bit more discretion that seems to appear during years 18, 19, and 20. Not sure how much that may be because we've lowered our expectations of 18 year olds. But, growing up on the border of a state that was late raising the drinking age I can tell you that we lost quite a few 18 year olds on their "beer run."

The method I suggested (above on 4/6): Does not depend on the kid. Does not depend on the topic. Does not depend on the language spoken. It has been used. Before I and my scouts used it, this rather uncouth civilization (a.k.a. THE WEST) used it to pull itself out of the Dark Ages. Is it better than EDGE? I dunno. But then again, I'm not saying a kid should or shouldn't advance depending on his ability to recite my method.

O yeah, I remember your crew debacle ... But, it did come as a shock, when the Council/District Leaders would tell you the Ventures were not a threat to the Boy Scout troop.. But, when you ask them to help sort out the mess between our troop & Crew, and were told the actions of this person, their response was.. Well create a better program so the crew can not steal them.. Nothing about speaking to her and informing her this was not the right way the Venturing Crew goes about recruiting.. Not reading their minds, but I suspect experience told them that explaining things to "runaway advisors" is generally a waste of time. The best thing to do is let nature run its course. Now she's a "runaway COR". Hmmmm, wonder what the best thing to do is here? And, I agree that things not working out for the best in a troop is the wrong reason to start a Venturing Crew. The right reason to start a crew is you see youth (male or female, in or out of a troop)with a need, and folks think you're the right people to meet that need.

FWIW - After 6 years of ranting (or in my opinion, simply spewing the facts), our troop is not sending boys to the summer camp "trail to first class" courses. It took that long to build up the facts: 1. Advancement to first class was no faster than when crossovers learned skills in the troop campsite. 2. The percentage of boys leaving the troop before aging out was no lower than when they learned skills in the troop campsite. 3. The percentage of Eagles among boys who aged out was no higher than when they learned skills in the troop campsite. I almost had them convinced last year -- pointing out the above plus explaining to people how having boys learn for unknown (although competent) scout instructors undermined the patrol method. There was still insistence that the PL's would be busy enoughtesting and signing off. (Even though PL's *knew* teaching was their responsibility as well.) I simply didn't have the snazzy marketing campaign to parents for "Your boys can earn a couple badges that won't count toward advancement until 3 ranks down the road, fish, shoot some stuff, and --best of all -- sit around camp and learn essential scout skills from their mates."

"ASM" "hands-on" and "she" in the same scentence = lightning rod Anyway, my priority would be coaching the ASM away from the "involvement ledge". The time will come when her sitting back ready to handle a health and safety issue will be more important than making sure your McCale's Navy Patrol gets a fair shot. The communication issue, well I'm sure your leaders have a "wall of infamy" somewhere (if only in stories after taps), let her know she's now on it! Sounds like your boys have it together as good as any. A stern, yet understanding, warning about giggle fits is all they lack! Sounds like the PL's ready to give that one for you.