qwazse

FYI - Thats very different from how we do it. SM and any available ASM's meet with the boy for his Eagle SMC. Only committee members and the district representative sit on our EBORs. SM introduces the boy, then leaves the room and waits more or less patiently in the hallway.

I used time-out and whacking with my kids. Whacking was a quick way of sparing them the time-out. If they were acting violence on one another, it was a way of saying their actions were begetting violence, and we (mom and I) will firmly stand in that path and block their way with force if necessary. It immediately re-opened paths to them, but some paths they would tread with fear. Time-outs were an exquisite form of tourture because it forced them to comply to a behavior we wanted. (e.g. "Be still for as many minutes as your age. And, when you come out I expect you to apologize/do your chores/clean your mess/be kind.") It allowed them the opportunity to figure out the best path to follow to avoid this painful interruption. In parenting, you need both. But in both cases, we had to explain why we did what we did afterword. Sometimes with the warning that our negative reinforcement was sparing them harsher punishments as adults from strangers. Sometimes with apologies if in fact we over-reacted. Always with the promise that we love them. In scouts, we have more constraints. (Whacking is prohibited and time-outs are just silly.) But what is interesting is watching the older boys sort out how to treat the tough cases.

Anybody ever read an Arabic Bible? The word for God is "Allah", same as in the Koran. As far as the Semitic religions go, it is not a matter of "what" or "who" but "what He did." Most agree He called the universe into being ... beyond that, things start to diverge. So, yes, inasmuch as we reference the font of all creation, we worship the same God. If I believe niel_b is blonde and had a cup of coffee after his/her last post and you believe he/she had a glass of milk. If we both reply to niel_b's post we still are replying to neil_b. And, if a pre-teen is still going to church with his folks even though he's on the verge of saying the universe merely has its origins in chaos, I am constrained to believe God (his/mine/yours whatever) is still gaining the recognition He deserves. Actions speak louder than words. (Well, at least in my religion they do.)

It would be interesting to find out how well informed the Eagle scout who testified was during his youth. Was he shown "A Time to Tell"? Did someone challenge his thinking like BrentAllen suggested? Here's another harsh reality, folks. Even with the best education, it may take years for an abused youth to take a stand against what's happening (or happened). So educate, but don't expect it to be like a light bulb turning on and exposing the predator in the corner. A skilled perpetrator has learned to hide in plain sight making sure that those around him are unwilling or afraid to point him out. You can only hope that one of his couriers will reveal his compound. (Oops, mixed metaphor.)

Niel_b, Jesus was always getting accused of breaking rules like working on the Sabbath or eating with gentiles. I guess if he was a scout he might get his advancement denied for not being reverent enough. Jesus always asserted that he was acting in accordance with his own beliefs. As a youth he was, by all but the most partisan accounts, a good Jewish boy. He might get docked for not getting a parental release to hang back at Temple. (After all boy scouts love paperwork. ) But he's pass on Reverent. Not saying you shouldn't tell a boy that breaking the 3rd Commandment in your presence is offensive to you, and they are supposed to be sensitive to other people's beliefs. I just am not sure it is grounds for holding back their advancement. As I explained earlier, this has NOTHING to do with what's offensive to me. My preface: "If a boy says he believes in God, attends church twice as often as his religion requires, keeps fasts, prays, reads scripture, etc .." This means that THE BOYS OWN definition of duty (not mine) puts this requirement on him. My experience is that a boy who cusses effusively probably never grasped how offensive it is according their own stated belief system. Sometimes delaying rank advancement for a week is all a boy needs to start apologizing for -- and eventually ridding himself of -- this irreverent habit. But my real point is that I give a pass to a young boy who harbors serious doubts but still attends worship with his family and performs his religious duty without complaint while he sorts it all out. I don't consider doing so to be a "rubber stamp." BD, it is fun when the boys "get it".

NielB - There is no mention of not taking God's name in vain ... Scouting is non-sectarian, ... If the boy feels he is doing his best to satisfy his personal religious obligations and demonstrates that in tangible ways (like attending church) it is not for you to impose your personal religious beliefs on him as a Scouter. I was not referring to my own personal anything. I was referring to a practice common to young scouts where they violate the tenants of the religion they claim as their own. Is there a religion where the needless spouting the name of a deity (especially one that is not your own) is a required practice? I have not encountered one. If I do, I'll try to work a balance with the other boys in my unit so they don't get offended. Then when it comes to that 12th point, I'll ask, "Boy, have you cussed as much as your folks said you're supposed to today?" If he hasn't met his quota, I'll tell him to come back next week when he's managed to fulfill his duty or paid the appropriate pennance for "vanity inssufficiency." The higher the rank, the more tightly I'll hold him to it! Returning to the OP's question. Here's another "stamp stopper": When I cover the scout slogan, if I ask a boy "so what was your good turn for today?" and he comes up with nothing. That's a definite "see ya next week."

Minimize the drama. Focus on the one issue you're being asked to attest to: the project. Was it completed as planned? Did the boy show some leadership? Then sign. If not, don't sign. There's no need to resign. If there are issues that will come up at his board of review: make sure you yourself are focusing on the boy's tenure while at Life rank. If your concerns apply to that period, let the boy know which ones you will be bringing up at the board of review and expect him to have honest and thoughtful replies to each of them. If he is concerned that he may not, he should ask for some help at the SMC on how to reply to such things. Your goal as CC at this point is to listen to this kid and get him to reflect on his sense of apathy. Try to find out if there is something in the troop that drove it. What the dad, SM, or council think are superfluous.

I am reading from my fellow scouters that they ignore these when it comes to advancement. ... Not so. If a boy says he believes in God, attends church twice as often as his religion requires, keeps fasts, prays, reads scripture, etc ... But routinely takes the Lord's name (yours, mine, or his, it doesn't matter) in vain. He is irreverent. He does not advance until he can go a day without sputtering "OMGs."

You should define your regular meeting place to include the lake. Talk to your scout executive. Assuming that meetings always include adequate supervision, 20 plans for mostly paddling in a controlled area is excessive. The tour plans should be for the real trips 1+ miles.

I'm sure you can split hairs all the way down through every sect of every religion, but here are some broad pejorative categories that I've heard bantied about ... Clearly folks who have no religious life and mock everyone else who does are irreverent. Folks who promote their religion to the exclusion of others are overzealous. (Unless they're right, then they're just zealous.) By definition, folks who hold themselves up as religious yet live their life in opposition to their religion are hippocrites. Folks who think religion is above or beyond them, so they just stay home and muddle through are merely unchurched. Those who have profound doubts yet still subject themselves to religious teaching and practice? None of the above seem to fit. Some contemporary evangelists have used the word "seeker" (a term I personally find annoying). Regardless, at least in Christendom, some of the greatest writings in favor of faith ultimately came from such folks. I think that's why it's important to ask the boy, "what does it mean for you to be reverent?" Not a bad question to ask ourselves from time to time either.

BD: Should it be measured? How is it measured? As soon as I pull this log out of my eye, I'll let you know how to measure the speck in my young scout brother's! Is a scouter qualified to measure it? I think that misses the point. The goal is to get the boy, over time, to measure it. It may be that his theology will line up perfectly with yours. It may be not. A higher authority is, well, higher than that. But, we want our young men to reflect on this question early in their life. Because not reflecting on it until after you're guarding some enemy POW's and some crazy chick talks you into violating Geneva conventions can have dire consequences. remove Duty to god from the oath and remove Reverent from the scout law? Nope. There are plenty of other venues where that can happen. Interesting and valid questions But isn't that why so many churches charter BSA units.

BD - not to speak for CP, but ... This all hinges on what the SM's idea of duty to God is. Some people think if you don't have your "head in the game" the rest is all fluff. They accord a lot of respect to the kid who says "I pray in my own way." Others think that if you are showing due respect while harbouring profound doubts, you are at the very least giving God a chance to believe in you (even though the feeling's not mutual). There is no litmus test to hand to an SM and say these are "in" and those are "out". The best you can do is help a kid discover if he can be honest with himself regading an oath he makes every week. Part of that is letting the parents know what you're learning about their son. Part of it is reviewing the issue as a boy reaches an "age of accountability" (which very few 11 year olds have). Every rank advancement is a chance to bring up the issue and see if the boy is moving toward a direction where his beliefs and actions match his words. At this point (just crossing over, 1st conversation with the adult responsible for modelling behaviour according to conviction) it's too early to tell.

Yep. You're coming up against an Eastern vs. Western definition of "belief." The Western is all intelectuall. So you give props to the unchurched kid who confesses this inward spiritual life. The Eastern is more (not all) behavioral. So the guy who acts the faith ("goes through the motions" as we judgementally call it) in the face of profound doubts gets credited as a believer. Obviously you should let the parents know as mentioned above. Right now, his actions are lining up with the oath and law, so you can count that. You don't have to bring this up with him right now, but at each SMC, counsel the boy that his thoughts are going to eventually have to line up with his actions and his words. And if he concludes he has no duty to God, advise him that he'd won't want to be in the position of taking an oath in vain. No badge of rank is worth that. I think this kind of diversity is good for the troop. It gives kids who think their religion is a slam-dunk a chance to think through the tenants of their faith. For that reason alone I wouldn't toss the kid out. Besides SM224, if you are of Christian inclination, it gives you one more thing to pray for!

And, if you stay, for the love of all that is beautiful about summer don't have pack meetings. Have pack picnics, pack participation in parades, pack flag retirement ceremony (see if there's a boy scout troop that can help with that), pack wiffle ball, hikes, fishing. Maybe even go cheer and your CC's son's ball game. (Ask if the boys could sell treats there.) Do things where you don't have to be up front like you do for the fall dog-and-pony show. Sneak your other adults to the fore. See if that attracts some other kids to join. Point is, while you have a small pack, have fun with the smallness! Then at the end of the summer, tell the CC that he needs to order a bunch of those summer participation stars.

Yep. Your stuck. The CC's job is to rally adult leaders. It is possible for CM and CC to not have a good relationship and still do their jobs. BUT the CC needs parents on committee to help him make wise decisions and you need DL's to dive into these boys' lives. If nobody's budging to lend a hand you'll never have that 5 den model with the Byzantine heirarchy the rest of us have come to love. The alternative: switch to the one room school model. T, W, B, W1's and W2's meet in one room together every week. Ask the parents to take a turn on a topic/project each week (start with the ESL's). Promise you will stand along side them. If all they do is teach the kids a song in their first language, you've won! If you have a "cookie" mom. TELL HER SHE'S TEACHING THE BOYS TO BAKE. Teach the parents to fill out forms or tracking sheets on the boys. Every fourth week, all the parents come and you have a pack meeting. Akward? Yes. Worth not having to commute? That's up to you.

Pack - Methinks qwazse may be tiptoeing (tipsytoeing?) toward a problem? No problems here, I've had enough margin that if I didn't want to go through life stone cold sober, I could have gon off the wagon years ago. What convinced me was working at my dad's beer distributor back when kids were allowed to do that sort of thing. I helped deliver four cases to a guy whose kids I knew couldn't afford shoes on their feet. That settled it for me. I think my brothers came to similar conclusions. Dad knew what he was doing letting us work our summers there. We weren't even allowed to bring soda pop home! Some of my mottos to my kids ... - There is no TV worth more than $50. - There is no cable plan worth more then $5/month. - There is no house worth more than $150,000. Paid more than that? Take in boarders. - If it costs more than $1000 to heal a pet, it's time to put it down. - Last year's game system will do. Our men's group is reading an interesting book Balance by Swenson. It talks about some ways in which our generation has added a lot of extra expense to living. Makes me feel like I'm not the only cheapskate on the planet. That's why I cringe a little when I hear "high adventure scouting". Units that define themselves as such give parents some serious sticker shock! (We've seen them discuss it on these forums.) Yes, we do superactivities. But, I think it's just as important to conquer your backyard. If fuel costs really do drive us a little closer to home, the boys will spend lest time in a car and more time camping. I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. When the boys and girls in my crew are seen hiking through town with their packs, that's publicity. I'm makin no apologies. I'm thinkin it will prepare them for the cost concious world in which THEY they will have to live.

I'll have to point out to my troop and crew that being able to light a fire without paperwork is a unique privelage of geography and climate. Sounds like an awesome stew -- which I wouldn't share with the boys if I were you!

Our camp provided the hated checklists as well. If my SPL and PL's are not supposed to use them to sign off on things, why give me one more piece of paper? Just give li'll Johnny a woggle kit (rope and instructions for the turk's head knot). Let him figure out what he needs to get signed-off in his book. I would rather have camp staff focus on skills training and instilling pride in patrols. That's why I favor "patrol challenges" over "instructional sessions". They accomplish the same thing, but one sounds a lot less like school.

Big screen vs. big woods. Not sure who the winner is on that one. But, scouting is labor intensive. If parents have thrown all of the xtra's overboard and still need to work evenings and weekends to afford the commute to their day job, our kids have a problem. P.S. (for packsaddle) - The price of juice (because it is essential transporting water in refrigerated trucks) is climbing. There's every reason to expect it to exceed the cost of cheap alcohol. Starting to drink may be a cost-effective solution for some folks.

Thanks for taking on this responsibility. The following comes from the heart of a guy who's finally convinced his troop to do all the training for T2FC in site. I will try to be brief ... The goal is to swim upstream. To foist all of the sign-off responsibility onto the PL's (and, only as a last resort, the SM's.) Consider opening scoutcraft up to "patrol challenges". A different one each day. They could be service projects related to scoutcraft skills. They could be relays for patrols present (e.g. fastest through a knot tying challenge). Offer a totem (simple stuff, like a "wood carving kit" that's just a sawed off round of log) to each first-year for time ... 1. They bring their PL to scoutcraft, 2. The show up with their patrol flag, 3. At scout craft their PL helps them with a skill they have trouble with. If the PL is a star scout, give him an "EDGE certified" token for his Life requirement. 4. They copy the design of their patrol flag on their "wood carving kit." 5. If he finds out his PL can't remember/never learned a skill and brings him to scoutcraft and teaches it to him (thus earning the Tenderfoot EDGE requierment, which the PL can sign off on right there). Offer specific training for SM (you've already heard how some of us need it) award the youth for bringing their adult leaders in for "refreshers." Most importantly, explain that you will NOT REPORT A SINGLE SKILL TAUGHT, if the boy can't come back to camp and demonstrate the skill or participate in an activity with his SM SPL or PL observing with their own eyes, it will not get signed off. For confused adults, explain that you are trying to help them build a teaching environment that will outlast the week at camp. You get the idea. Of course, your ability to implement is a function of how many staff you have and how much of a leash your camp director gives you. For the swimming stuff, coordinate with the aquatic's director. Instruct the boy (or PL) that checking buddy tags should count as proof.

Don't mean to stir contraversy, but could you send boy with patches and new shirt to dad? Teaching boy to sew is not a bad idea. Of course, even if they do pitch in and help with the patch business, no gaurantee that the boy would remember to bring the shirt home! But, it might help increase the family's effort. Is it worth the price of a shirt?

I have been a strong proponent of local camping, leveraging the good graces of folks who have wooded property or park boards who could use some service project. Then, every few months find a location more than a few hours away. The issue is not so much cost as it was time stuck in a tin can waiting to get somewhere. What is changing is parents have to work an extra couple of hours to pay for fuel to commute. Half of our troop and crew comes from more than a couple miles to get to our meeting place. The boys who commute have to work harder to organize rides. I suspect geography will have a greater bearing on selecting a unit.

Just asking for volunteers can get you some pretty scattered den chiefs! This isn't like asking little Johnny to go to the office and run off copies on the mimeograph. The troop's reputation with your DL's is on the line, so they'd like to have a say. The common sense way this works: 1. CM informs the troop that he has X dens who need den chiefs. At this point he may inform the SPL or SM which scouts in the troop have siblings in the pack. 2. SPL discusses with SM which boys would be good candidates. This usually works very well because the SPL will have seen how the boys perform with new members in the troop. 3. At the next troop meeting, the SPL talks to the scouts then gives the CM the list of available boys. CM contacts the boys and sorts out schedules and assignments to specific dens. He then reports back to SM about which boys took up the position. A lot of times the process is less formal than this depending on the size of pack and troop. And definitly, a CM can ask for a specific boy or to bring back one of last year's chiefs. But when he does it's a good idea to get a look at the SPL's face for signs of cringing!

Odd! My swim instructor (Women's Air Corps veteran) told me it was for "advancing on the enemy position!" Look boys, there's a reason why we call it "scouting" and not "just yer average youth group."

MItBl -- For those that think Venturing is the answer to retaining these young adults its not ... I wholeheartedly agree with you on this point. And rest assured I jump down DE's cases when they use lines like "Venturing is an open market" or "we can keep our boys longer". Because it simply is not the solution to retention problems. But that doesn't mean it is not a solution. Just like restricting 18-20 y.o.s to ASM is not the solution for all the aprehensions that folks might have about someone just below drinking age being top dawg in a scouting unit. It is still a solution. My experience with most 18-20 year old ASM's is that they do great job -- one might even say they were SM-ready, until they pull a bonehead move and nobody will forgive them for it. Whereas, that boy may get a second chance in a crew or ship and the transition to leader at 21 is more rock-solid. So yeah, I tend to be universally cautious with young adult leaders well into their mid 20's. It's a lot easier to be pleasantly surprised by the "straight arrow" than to have unrealistic expectations about the whole quiver. Even though I can't put my hand on it, there is something to be said for telling everyone that our principals will have lived at least 3 years as an adult in our society.