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Okay guys, let's for the sake of argument, assume that dave's CO only asked his committee to implement the BSA program as best they know how, and maybe make sure the kids offer grace before meals. [if that's not the case, daveinWA, and your attendance rules were handed down from the chartered org, let us know.] Then, we are in the position of helping dave interpret the program as best *we* know how. Let's also assume that dave is one guy, and he doesn't drink the Dr. Jekyll potion to put on his crew committee hat. He wants these two units to work reasonably closely together. He does not want to sit down to a BOR and say "Okay guys, are we the troop or are we the crew tonight?" We don't know if his crew advisor and SM are different guys, but if they are, Dave doesn't want to look at a kid and say "Oops, you got your SMC with the troop, but we hardly saw you in troop for six months. Go back and have it with your advisor." Ideally, the SMC would have included the SM, ASMs, and Advisors. (Works for us, just sayin.) Either way, whoever cleared him on his requirements was satisfied with attendance. They might not have been pleased with it, but they followed the letter of the law and moved the application along. However that happened, as long as the adults are generally content with the process, the kid is coming to dave with this unresolved issue. But dave doesn't want slacker boys taking advantage of this period when the crew's expectations for a venturer's participation in his troop (if he has one) is a little ambiguous. In spite of Beav's protestation to the contrary, you can't legislate a warm body into being more active in the troop. The boy could say, "Fine transfer my stuff to the crew, I'll talk to my advisor, see you in a week." If the crew officers think that's a jerky move, they could add some stipulation to their by-laws, but that's a *youth* decision, not a committee decision. And it won't happen quickly. Besides, dave is probably smart enough to not go asking someone to make a rule for him, they just might do it, and the youth might especially hold him to it. That's why I suggested a "gauntlet" that involves forcing the boy to reflect on his scouting career. You can't slam the door in the kid's face. But, you can ask open-ended questions that help him think through how is decisions about attendance may have impacted the life of the troop and his own career. Heck, you can then ask the kid -- since he is eligible to stay in the crew a few more years -- if he knows of a way the crew can help improve attendance in both units. I ask you, isn't that better than bouncing around appeals paperwork between council and national? If word gets out that little Joey was stuck talking about attendance problems to half a dozen guys for much of his review, doncha think the boys are gonna take attendance a little more seriously?

To pressure or not to pressure, that's your wife's call. Once you've told her that you think there's a bigger picture at stake, let her take whatever stance she feels is appropriate. But, encourage her that every once of pressure should come with a pound of praise for the things you both admire in the boy.

Let him move forward, but through a gauntlet. The politics of "with the troop" or "with the crew" are smoke and mirrors to a boy this age. Avoid them. The neat thing about Venturing for a boy is attendance and positions of responsibilities becomes less relevant. The trade-off is that venturing is supposed to "bleed into" the other areas of a youth's life, enabling him/her to better contribute to church group, sports team, or boy scout or girl scout troop. Sometimes the boys jump on the "pluses" to avoid the "minuses". You can't regulate that, but thanks to boards of reviews, you can force it to come to a head. I've informed the Eagle candidates in my crew that they should be prepared to answer questions their troop committee may ask about their participation in venturing. In your case, define "kind of active in the Crew" by forcing the boy to reflect. If he's not an officer, which crew activity is he responsible for? What can his crew members count on him for? Is he serving either unit in a way beffitting of an Eagle scout? How? How has his sevice as a Venturer benefitted the troop? I've found that boys who are spending less time with the troop are also not as involved in the crew. If that is the case, then at scoutmaster conferences (which in our troop are held with the ASMs and SM for Eagle candidates), I ask the question "What good have you been doing in the world of late?" All of these are fair game, and I strongly encourage the board of review to ask questions like these. Comparing attendance statistics just doesn't get you anywhere. For the other slackers in the troop, keep in mind that there's a difference between "essentially stopped attending" and "stopped attending". Don't recharter a boy who doesn't show up at a single meeting -- only collect dues at meetings. Your SM (or SPL and PLC, if your boy leadership is fully functional) should be removing any boy from a POR if he has done nothing in that position for two months, period. If he wants a POR to make rank, HE MUST DO THE WORK. Your crew, if it as tightly integrated as you say it is, should also not countenance absentee officers. My crew actively recruits outside the troop, so holding an officer position is not a slam-dunk. The boys in the troop must run against young men and women not in a troop. They can ask for an activity chair position, but it only means something if the activity gets planned! P.S. - I don't see a venture patrol as solving anything for a boy like this. It just masks the problem. The boy is there at a troop meeting, but he's only focused on planning the next high adventure -- not talking to younger boys, not encouraging them. To top it off, he can point to the adherance to your attendance policy in reply to any of the above questions.

MT - "Ok, everyone knows I'm SM.. But SM is not part of the committee.. I work for you.. You can fire me anytime.. Any time. Really, if you want to fire me now, I'm gone.. Really any time.." Yep, used that one once or twice. (And heard it used as well.) As far as closed meetings. The only that we sanction are an exectutive session between CC, SM, and Treasurer if there's a boy in serious financial straights. At a meeting down the road, the Treasure may note "dispersed $x to help a scouts attend an activity persuant to executive sessions on (dates)." We've kinda gotten around that by just giving the SM a larger discretionary budget, but the policy is in place so that folks know they can ask for help if the see a kid needs it and don't have to worry about the family's buisness being broadcasted to a dozen folks.

We have had this come up on several occasions (one with my dear wife and son's mother). 1. We make it clear that it if the boy expresses a desire to advance we snap to and help him. 2. If the boy is a great kid and could care less about advancement we let him have fun. If he accidently proves he learns something we may make him grab his book and get the SPL's signature. 3. If the boy does not want to contribute to the life of the troop, well he'll probably catch it from the SPL, but we'll tell the parent that we need to team up and help engage the boy -- not for the sake of advancement but because the kid's putting down a lot of (their) cash just to act surly. Fortunately, my boy fell into category #2. But, we've made it clear to everyone (advancement chair included) that in no way will the SM and ASM's heed a one-rank-advancement-per-year-per-boy goal. We insert the "horse-to-water" analogy. (Some of these folks have never led a horse anywhere so if anyone has a different one, please provide). If an adult sputters about that, I pull out the "I'm not gonna tarnish the value of my Eagle by browbeating someone to hike their trail faster." That usually settles it. I could pull out troop stats that show earlier T21 has not resulted in any more Eagles before 17, but people chalk that up as oh-so-much mumbo jumbo.

MT I get your commish's attitude, but try giving him my testimony. I was trained for years before I went to RT. Why? Because none of the training was at RT so I never saw the point of one more meeting a month. It took me a long time before I believed you could actually learn stuff at the breakout sessions. Any way if you have to do it on a different night or on a Saturday morning do what you gotta do.

SP Maybe selfish, but true. I've had a number of boys shy away from guard instruction because the responsibility was onerous. A year or two later, they'd join a VFD, or get EMT cert, or even get guard certified at a local pool. When they feel they have it in them to serve our unit in that caqpacity, we plan activities accordingly. We avoid the guilt trip. We simply set the bounds of our program by the certifications of our members.

We do in the USA have a International Scouter's Award. I kinda like the fact that I'm the only person in the Council I serve who has it! Consider the gauntlet thrown. Oh, wait, there's paperwork. Nevermind. I think you'd be surprised the number of scouters who make international connections. They just don't go blowing their horns about it. This year two of my crew members served at an orphanage in the Dominican Republic. One sent me a picture with her wearing her venturing t-shirt while she was being hugged by some orphans. It warmed the cockles of my heart. Whenever any of my youth take an overseas they try look up the local scouting organization. I can name at least three scouters in council who probably deserve the knot outright. If it's not on their shirt, I'll let them know about it. They'll probably shrug and walk away. ED, the youth from my council have to drop about $3500 to attend this year's contingent. Unfortunately my crew had reserved boats in the Bahamas for the same week. (Is that international enough?) Youth Euro-rail passes are dirt cheap. I always tell my kids, go while you can afford it.

As far as MB's go, cater to your strengths. Or if there is a counselor camping with you, or in the vicinity of your camp and can come visit every day, give him an hour of instruction time. I think a pioneering camp would be awesome. (Set aside a big rope budget.) If you're near a decent trail system, hiking/orienteering would be fun. There's one trail we hike that passes near a shooting range, and if I were in your position, I'd give them a call to see if they had a certified instructor to give your boys a day of their time. If your older boys have the aquatics skills (or you can get a guard instructor to come along for the price of his food) swimming is it. And here's one last one that'll make some of these guys cringe: if you can find a place walking distance to your town or county seat, schedule hikes in to visit community leaders and pass by historical sites -- knock off some of those citizenship requirements. It all depends on how much of the T21 requirements you've knocked off in advance. You might want one MB that advances the skills they already have, and another that covers skills they need to learn/practice. Have a weekend camp or two between now and then for the boys who are available. Give them a chance to pick up something cool to teach their buddies. (It doesn't have to be a scout skill, it could be a set of patrol skits/songs.) As much as I love summer camp, I kind of envy the opportunity you have. Even with my crew, we have to work so hard to pay for that week on a high adventure base that we can't afford the week in our back yard with some sweet hikes, dropping off of some pretty cool cliffs, and kayaking some neat waters.

This sounds like you're going to have a lot of folks taking this course who've seen/done camping with a troop before, so ... My perspective on food. Until woodbadge ... staff have never been able to put together a meal that compared to what was done in any "ad hoc" student patrol I was on. (And even then, our woodbadge patrol went over the top on their night 3 dinner - with plenty of tiramisu for the other patrols.) Your patrols will learn more about possibilities if you they hear about the menu's of the half dozen other patrols in camp. You may want to offer snacks and lunch just to keep folks around the instruction area. A coffee kiosk is not a bad idea. My perspective on instruction: have as little indoors as possible. Use the chapel or campfire arena if the camp has one. Your round-robin strategy is a good idea if your pavilons are spaced decently apart. You want to teach the way you expect scouts to learn. (Although, access to a building if the weather turns sour is never a bad idea.) Also, adults will listen to youth more readily than other adults. (Of course the youth might not listen to themselves by the fourth time they give the same presentation!) My perspective on preparation: have your "mandatory" meet 'n greet at a district roundtable. The commish will happy to see the attendance. Let the breakout session be IOLS prep (this is where you assign/elect patrols). Those who're already trained can listen to the prep, you can also ask them to offer a few pointers of how to make it work for them. Those who never signed up for IOLS? Invite them if you still have room. You may very well have precious little time besides getting folks into patrols, collecting payment, and saying "See you all Friday the __th", but think about how many hours of troop prep meetings some boys have before their 1st campout? Most of the prep should be done in patrols. A week or two before campout, call the PL's to see if they are on track. This is where you may find out that there's a group that may need to borrow a camp-box or tent or whatever. My thoughts on follow-up: after the course have a plan to send a note to the graduate's unit leader (and SPL/ crew president, maybe?) recognizing their training. Ask that it be read at the unit meeting. Encourage them to ask the graduate what was their best and worst memory about being in a patrol of adults.

Although it's not quite like partialling a merit badge, if they stay sharp with their skills, they should be able to easily get their certificate when they turn 15. It depends on the instructor. He might sign a note that the boys did everything but the age requirement. This might help a boy who was hoping to lifeguard this summer. It might not.

TC Does anyone write proposals this way professionally? I'm sure some professions do, but more likely proposals give general proposals and count on the competence of the folks implementing to proposal to figure out the details. Yes, we do. From architects, to gardeners, to doctors, to football teams. Ever since the first recessions that shut down our mills, folks with deep pockets want to know technical details before committing to anything. We haven't been able to create booms (like the costal housing markets) where people seem to have been willing to float twice the real value of a commody just to have it. I'm sure part of that rubs off on what we expect from the boys, especially if they are just a couple of years away from having to compete in our job market.

Been there, done that. With our oldest, we followed-up his COH in with his HS grad party. Made for a long day, but tremendous fun. We told our youngest that if he earns his bird early, we'll have two parties for him. As for going back to cubs, YOU ARE A SAINT! I couldn't handle it again.

They may actually not die in the process of rescuing. What's that worth to you? They may also read fine print better. Who knows how much that will result in future savings?

BS, I completely forgot about the MB requirement. I'll remind my SM of that one. (He's a real congenial fellow, but not the public speaking type. I had no clue his first COH as SM was his first time in front of a crowd! Anyway, he's pretty determined that the boys get their first speaking engagements before they graduate from the troop.) dl - and I think that is your "in". Register as a Communications MBC, then offer your services as a coach to any boys who want to fulfill the requirement as part of the badge. This will give you the opportunity to share you vision with a "captive audience"!

MIB - you're spot-on with the cookin. The challenge is to make sure you have diverse patrols. Get info on students' outdoor experience when they sign up so you can assign well. That's what our district did when I took this way-back-when, and we had a fun patrol. I think we learned as much from each other as we did from the staff. I credit the staff in that course to the start of my geocaching odessey. (The guy just mentioned it obliquely in the orienteering demo, and I was hooked.) Look for youth staff (maybe the O/A lodge chief or local camp directors know a scout or venturer who showed exceptional teaching skills -- or was good at teaching a particular skill). There is nothing worse than a bunch of outdoorsmen watching an adult trainer fail to start his demonstration fire.

Frank, I think we're the victims of a "project development" town. Half the folks around here make their dimes cranking out 100 page proposals. When I showed my son and some of his buddies my project workbook (3 pages typed doublespace, with a hand drawn sketch on the front) he just shook his head in disgust.

COH's are sacred to the troop. If the committee has decided that the boys should have a lot of lattitude in planning, and the boys agree, then the committee's job is done. If an adult comes to this kind of committee and says "you need to step in, these boys are doing slip-shod work", the adult can expect to be ignored. If the SPL comes to the committee and says "we want to make the COH a little more special" then the committee may be compelled to respond. They may appoint an adult who is skilled in probing the boys to figure out what to tweak, but this type of committee will probably not appoint an a adult to write, produce, and direct "the perfect COH". Why? Because the members of this kind of committee have probably sat in on one or two such COH's and found them to be wretched miserable affairs that do nothing more than delay them and the boys from the cookies and punch afterword. Now, if it's a matter of disrespect during presentation of the colors or something of the sort, then yes, you should let the SM know that you found that offensive. He'll probably talk to the boy(s) at the next meeting and you won't see that behavior again. Otherwise, telling adults who are quite pleased with their boys that they aren't "going by the book" will get you nowhere. But, if there is something you would like added to the program, your best bet is to politely and respectfully ask the SPL if he would consider incorporating a particular element or inviting an adult leader or someone in the community to briefly address the troop.

For those of you whose older scouts (esp. PL's and Troop Guides) do not sign off on trail to first class, I'd like to know why? Honestly, I've had more problems training adults on this than boys. (Adults invariably fall for the "I did this at camp last summer when I earned __ MB" line, where boys will ask "Can you show me that skill now?" as we trained them to do.)

rr - Like I said earlier, I've been watching because I'm in a similar situation, but with an older age range. For what it's worth, I think Seabase is worth every sacrifice that an adult leader could make. I first took my crew with my oldest when he was 14. I had snorkeled Louee Key before, but doing it from a sailboat and hitting Sombrero reef the next day and swimming to the beach at Bahia Honda at the end of the week was over the top. But I understand the financial back-against-the-wall. I would simply put this in the boys hands. Explain that CC xx would like you to add a leg to your flight (and your son's flight) to make sure everyone travels from Illinois together, and ask them if they could chip in for the extra cost that you had not been prepared for. If the CC and COR reverse their decision, fine, the boys get some extra spending money. If not, everybody gets the respect they deserve. I'm just saying, whether you foot the extra bill or your crew-mates share the load, it will be worth it. (Oh, and your ticket and share of the seabase fee is tax-deductable since you are travelling as an essential leader. Here's hoping you get some income soon to make it worth itemizing.)

My pleasant surprise with troop backpacking experiences is that the younger scouts were good for the extra miles (up to 6 or 8) if the terrain is not particularly severe. So a hiking aree with loops that allow you to fit in more distance might be a good start. Your MBC will probably have some good suggestions for where you live.

The boys are entirely responsible for opening meetings, announcements, and closing meetings. Adults must request permission from SPL to give an announcement. Scouts name their own patrols, come up with their own yell, make their own flag. Sit as patrols. PL's and First Class Plus sign off on T2FC reqs. Outside of summer camp. We have a hard time getting our boys to "work" as patrols. They like doing the "ad hoc" thing. They like camping and cooking as a troop. Regardless, they do all of the shopping, cooking, and clean-up. (Actually our SM has a bit of a servant heart, so he'll pitch in with cleaning a pan or two.) We are trying to get SPL to complete the tour plans before handing them off for signature. That's always iffy. We encourage the SPL to invite crew or pack to activities, entirely at his and the PLC's discretion. If he doesn't contact the crew president, then we treat it as an activity for just the boys. (In a sense this means our crew takes 2nd fiddle to the troop, because my officers tend not to plan events when I'm not available. But, I feel the venturers have more responsibility for recruiting the qualified adults they need. And, the more they learn to organize events in my absence, the more likely I will have found my replacement!) In general, we set a vision for the boys which, by the way, still includes patrols planning independent overnights. We try to stay out of the way, mainly by maintaining an "old farts patrol".

Thanks for volunteering. The fact that you're an accomplished scout and still sticking around your senior year speaks loads. If you wanted to be sarcastic, you could suggest the dads apply to be Girl Scout Leaders. I recommend that you not be sarcastic. Ask for a scoutmaster conference. Explain your vision for the upcoming year. Explain why it's important for the boys to "skill-up" to the point that some serious backpacking gets done. Some things to suggest ... An "old farts" patrol. A patrol cook-off. Dad's vs. the boys. Pan polishing contests. Site inspections. Song/skit competition. You explain that the fastest way boys will learn to emulate will be if they see adults operating independently from them. Be patient. It took you a while to Eagle, it'll probably take these dads a while to come around. Remember positive reinforcement. Let them know they're doing a good every time you see them take a step back.

I figure it's been that way since Genesis chapter 2 ... [fruit crunching] "So, do you feel any smarter, yet?" "No, do you you?" "I think we've been scammed." "What's a scam?" "Nevermind, I'm gonna chat with the monkeys." "What, I'm no good for conversation anymore?" "I'm sorry Ms. wannabe a diety, but at least they have the sense to not let snake-talk get in their fur." "Oh yea, well at least they have fur ..., I saw that look in your eye when you saw the chance to get God-smart. Explain that to your chimp-chump friends in your hairless hide!" "Don't start with me, you're walking just as naked as I am ..." "Uh-oh"

In Arabic, there are two words for sin. One is the same word for "a mistake", something that flies in the face of cultural norms, or inadvertently offends someone sensibilities. The other is "an offense", a corruption, a tendency to rise up against the Almighty. If you have a uniform culture with defined norms (e.g., a young man and woman should not sit in the parlor unchaperoned) then lots of sin/mistakes can be regulated as if they are sin/offenses. In a diverse culture such as ours (where folks of different beliefs are here because their forefathers were fed up fighting someone else's holy wars) it's no longer possible to enforce the sin/mistakes. Just like scoutfish's girlfriend, my old-country grandparents were fit-to-be-tied over this. Moreover, I think we are still fishing around for the lowest common denominator of sin/offenses. So is naked walking a sin/mistake or a sin/offense? Guess it depends on how many cars run off the road as a result.