qwazse

I couldn't find the quote in the article. Nevertheless, it does not include scouting, and there's no reason to assume it should. Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are much different than those other organisations. Other threads have already discussed that scouting on a resume, admissions, and scholarship applications is most often an asset -- rarely a liability. Even progressive institutions are looking for members with the stick-to-it-ivness required to be granted BSA or GSA awards. I was at a major university's engineering department graduation a couple of years back and in the program the valedictorian noted his Eagle; and another of the top 10, his Life rank. I'm sure in the four years since graduating high school, these boys had a chance to accomplish other things, but they chose to acknowledge their scouting experience before an audience of thousands. I'm not sure anyone did a fact-check before printing the program. But I have no reason to doubt these boys' declaration anymore than I would the young lady who's best accomplishment was founding the "Harry Potter Society".

Venturing females learning to throw axes with deadly accuracy ... it's enough to make any guy think twice. (Just sayin', dads ...) Back to topic ... I forgot to toss clippers or small penknife in my tackle box this week. It was a hassle trying to use the sheath knife for cutting monofilament line. The tool was too big for a small job. But, I'm glad it wasn't banned.

I think the intent here is that a scout may have gained an interest in a topic and started on some of the requirements (either out of ignorance or enthusiasm) before meeting the counselor. Then the boy should bring the stuff he started on, especially if it's good work that the counselor would have approved anyway. Also, the original counselor may still be on the district's list even if he/she is no longer active with the troop. (Sometimes those rolls take years to delete.) I'd check with HQ and, if they'd still take a sign-off on any MB's started by him/her, let the original counselor know his/her standing regarding incomplete MB's. In short, you probably have options. Do what makes the most sense for this boy.

23 registered. Attendance has been around 15. 19 are at summer camp.

We meet weekly every evening that the local school is in session. We shoot for camping 1 weekend/month. Plus summer camp. This is essential. I had a boy leave summer camp after three days because the bugs got to him (psychologically, not physically). He specifically asked, "Can I still come on winter campouts? I like when it's so cold that I don't have to worry about bugs." If all goes as planned, this would mean 18-24 camping nights. In reality some months all the boys are occupied with other activities and we've had to cancel. So, the tally is closer to 12-18 nights. The older boys have access to our Venturing crew (which meets twice a month and usually offers about four camping weekends plus a super-activity) and O/A (which offers a couple service weekends and a winter weekend).

MS I just left the boys at camp where an SPL was managing three patrols of six. His situtation is similar to yours ... different school, somewhat different interests, more a manager than a drill instructor. All that to say, you're an SPL with a PL patch. You've already identified the need for other active "sub-PL's" if you are to be successful. And you've realized that coordinating with other units (in this case, those other large patrols) is important. But, the numbers/patch game is irrelevant. If these boys see each other as a patrol, then they will be even if adults split them. The bottom line then, is how much lattitude your SM will give you and how many ASM's there are to back up a troop that may have preferences for very diverse BSA activities. The key? Communicate communicate communicate. I think you have the right idea for trying to make good use of electronic media tools. One tip: quickly evaluate each tool you use, and if it doesn't work as expected (e.g., if your key boys and their parents can't or wont use it), drop it for "lower tech alternatives". Regarding the PLC's "electoral college" preference for camp B, listen very carefully to why they prefer it. (Be forgiving if the reasons are poorly presented, you're fishing for substance here, not form.) If there is enough in reasons for you all to work out a compromise (e.g. one camp one year, the other the next) I would strike that deal. It would impress the adults more that you worked out a unified strategy on your own. (Can you tell, I'm no fan of powerpoint debates?) Anyway, all the best. You're off to a good start.

ScoutNut may be a little paranoid, but I've found his observations of the Byzantine workings of this organization are not too far off. One word of caution, never confuse a sympathetic ear for an alliance ... He looks completely foolish to anyone in our Troop that I share the details with ... I have heard phrases like this before, from someone who thought they'd be in this organization forever, about someone who he thought would be doomed to wreck a unit. The former is no longer an official leader, while the latter is fostering a booming troop. Just sayin' the path you describe is well-trodden ...

It probably means he will be subject to some cleaver marketing schemes.

In all of the text lashing this useful question went unanswered ... How frequently does a Troop set a higher standard than the BSA? Well, I'm no statistician (at least not on my day off), but I figure it's fairly frequent. For example, the first time our Troop/Crew went to Seabase, we required the adults to have completed Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills (or whatever they called it 5 years ago) and Venturing Leader Specific Training. That's way above BSA's reqs. I tried to require VLST for the upcoming trip, but our council botched the schedule. (The next course is two weekends after our return!) I talked it over with other with other more experienced advisors who my CC would trust before letting that standard go.

about your Troop, but trips like this cannot be turned over to the boys. There's where Venturing is supposed to be different ... Every aspect of my crew's trip, every twist and turn, every rule, has gone through the youth (whom are the same age range as your contingent). If they thought a policy was stupid, we dropped it. All checks and cash go through my youth treasurer. I send her any invoices that come to me, and she handles my reciepts. She requests a check from my adult treasurer and sends it where needed. Boat assignments (including which adults chaperon with whom) are their responsibility. They have read the Guide to Safe Scouting. If an adult wanted to manipulate things (and they did), I told them "not my call, bring it up with the youth." They fill out the tour plan and collect signatures. The VP admin gets a copy. There are some scouters among us who say the 14-and-up boys in their troop have the same range of authority. I'll confess, five years ago I may have had as low opinion of the boy's abilities as you have now. I know adults who held that opinion, and seemed it was constantly them butting heads with other adult leaders. I decided, "why not spare myself the drama, and let the youth take the helm?" The youth have yet to let me down. They dissipated lot of the blow-hards' steam. (It's really hard to be an intransigent committee member when a Crew President and her posse are asking you for a better reason than the one just offered.) I'm not saying it would have worked with your CC and COR, but you missed an opportunity for the youth to give it a shot. Besides, youth led is the rule. 'Nuff said. I do hope they find your replacement and the trip goes forward. If it does, I would recommend taking your refund to buy the ticket to fly with your boy to FLL. You seem to think highly enough of the boys and your co-leader to make it worthwhile. If you want to pull your son, that's your prerogative. In my crew there are no refunds. (Our treasury is bare-bones.) It would be your son's responsibility to find his own replacement. Or if the other youth wanted, they could opt to shell out the extra $$ to cover the unused share of the boat.

This is why I characterized rrafalo's approach as "juvenile" as well, since it plays into that silly tit-for-tat nonsense which can end up doin' more harm than good. Beav - that's an insult to juvenile's everywhere. rr - As an advisor I would be fuming (and have fumed) over adults using my crew's good name to play an end-around on some other adult leader. So, now we have a green light to proceed and everyone WINS. Our Troop's Committee Chairman wins because he did not sign a Tour Plan he was not happy with, and I win because I still get to co-lead this outing. Most importantly, ALL the boys win! How have any of the boys "won?" Did you give them a chance to determine if the CC was fair? Did the boys have an opportunity to talk to the CC? Did the boys choose this course of action? Did the crew President and VP of Program approve your request to sail under their flag? Heck you didn't even let your son know about the roller-coaster you were riding! Sure you, your wallet, and your vacation plans have a phyrric victory. But you've squandered a leadership opportunity. You haven't taught the boys to stand up to anything, because it wasn't them doing the standing! In my book you owe the boys an apology. You and your co-leader should promise them that they will have control of the trip from hear on out.

Beav, There are ways to do that. Simplest for him might be to say that their crew does not offer Boy Scouting advancement. So lads who want to earn Star, Life, or Eagle have to stay active in the troop. I've as much told kids that's how I'd prefer they operate. However, if a venturer says "I want to advance through the crew.", I wouldn't turn him down. And if most of his activity was through the troop, and he hardly attended crew meetings, it wouldn't count against his advancement the way I read the requirements. (It would make me want to call the SM to try and get an idea of where this kid is coming from.) Fact is, so far four of my venturers used their crew PORs towards rank advancement in the troop. Calico - I met troops where the boys came up with the attendance requirements. They were a little fed up with half-planned adventures by half attentive SPLs and PLs where only half the boys who signed up would put in even half the effort. So, I wouldn't chalk attendance requirements as always adult-led. But, although boys may start them, it takes adults to hand them down across the generations.

I was a band dork in HS. Did it slow my rank advancement? Maybe. But so did watching Wide World of Sports on the Saturdays I wasn't camping or at band practice! Be very statisfied that he got 1st class in two years. (My #2 son took 3.) Now's the time to stop looking at other boys. Maybe that leap ahead in rank will mean one, maybe two, will get Eagle soon, but in normal circumstances the rest will be dawdling along until a light goes on at age 17.5 (probably later for a couple that will miss the deadline). There's no reason that that one band member couldn't hold a leadership position that would count toward advancement. I think your wife sitting and talking is the best first step. Stop talking to the boy about advancement. Now that he's 1st class, start asking what kind of outing he'd like to plan for his patrol. Maybe there's a place he'd like to take the family to see. Ask if there's a high adventure base or jamboree he'd like to save up for. Give him a few extra chores worth your paying him to do. After a summer of hard work around the house, he might decide that working on those required merit badges might be a good way to get some time off!

Okay guys, let's for the sake of argument, assume that dave's CO only asked his committee to implement the BSA program as best they know how, and maybe make sure the kids offer grace before meals. [if that's not the case, daveinWA, and your attendance rules were handed down from the chartered org, let us know.] Then, we are in the position of helping dave interpret the program as best *we* know how. Let's also assume that dave is one guy, and he doesn't drink the Dr. Jekyll potion to put on his crew committee hat. He wants these two units to work reasonably closely together. He does not want to sit down to a BOR and say "Okay guys, are we the troop or are we the crew tonight?" We don't know if his crew advisor and SM are different guys, but if they are, Dave doesn't want to look at a kid and say "Oops, you got your SMC with the troop, but we hardly saw you in troop for six months. Go back and have it with your advisor." Ideally, the SMC would have included the SM, ASMs, and Advisors. (Works for us, just sayin.) Either way, whoever cleared him on his requirements was satisfied with attendance. They might not have been pleased with it, but they followed the letter of the law and moved the application along. However that happened, as long as the adults are generally content with the process, the kid is coming to dave with this unresolved issue. But dave doesn't want slacker boys taking advantage of this period when the crew's expectations for a venturer's participation in his troop (if he has one) is a little ambiguous. In spite of Beav's protestation to the contrary, you can't legislate a warm body into being more active in the troop. The boy could say, "Fine transfer my stuff to the crew, I'll talk to my advisor, see you in a week." If the crew officers think that's a jerky move, they could add some stipulation to their by-laws, but that's a *youth* decision, not a committee decision. And it won't happen quickly. Besides, dave is probably smart enough to not go asking someone to make a rule for him, they just might do it, and the youth might especially hold him to it. That's why I suggested a "gauntlet" that involves forcing the boy to reflect on his scouting career. You can't slam the door in the kid's face. But, you can ask open-ended questions that help him think through how is decisions about attendance may have impacted the life of the troop and his own career. Heck, you can then ask the kid -- since he is eligible to stay in the crew a few more years -- if he knows of a way the crew can help improve attendance in both units. I ask you, isn't that better than bouncing around appeals paperwork between council and national? If word gets out that little Joey was stuck talking about attendance problems to half a dozen guys for much of his review, doncha think the boys are gonna take attendance a little more seriously?

To pressure or not to pressure, that's your wife's call. Once you've told her that you think there's a bigger picture at stake, let her take whatever stance she feels is appropriate. But, encourage her that every once of pressure should come with a pound of praise for the things you both admire in the boy.

Let him move forward, but through a gauntlet. The politics of "with the troop" or "with the crew" are smoke and mirrors to a boy this age. Avoid them. The neat thing about Venturing for a boy is attendance and positions of responsibilities becomes less relevant. The trade-off is that venturing is supposed to "bleed into" the other areas of a youth's life, enabling him/her to better contribute to church group, sports team, or boy scout or girl scout troop. Sometimes the boys jump on the "pluses" to avoid the "minuses". You can't regulate that, but thanks to boards of reviews, you can force it to come to a head. I've informed the Eagle candidates in my crew that they should be prepared to answer questions their troop committee may ask about their participation in venturing. In your case, define "kind of active in the Crew" by forcing the boy to reflect. If he's not an officer, which crew activity is he responsible for? What can his crew members count on him for? Is he serving either unit in a way beffitting of an Eagle scout? How? How has his sevice as a Venturer benefitted the troop? I've found that boys who are spending less time with the troop are also not as involved in the crew. If that is the case, then at scoutmaster conferences (which in our troop are held with the ASMs and SM for Eagle candidates), I ask the question "What good have you been doing in the world of late?" All of these are fair game, and I strongly encourage the board of review to ask questions like these. Comparing attendance statistics just doesn't get you anywhere. For the other slackers in the troop, keep in mind that there's a difference between "essentially stopped attending" and "stopped attending". Don't recharter a boy who doesn't show up at a single meeting -- only collect dues at meetings. Your SM (or SPL and PLC, if your boy leadership is fully functional) should be removing any boy from a POR if he has done nothing in that position for two months, period. If he wants a POR to make rank, HE MUST DO THE WORK. Your crew, if it as tightly integrated as you say it is, should also not countenance absentee officers. My crew actively recruits outside the troop, so holding an officer position is not a slam-dunk. The boys in the troop must run against young men and women not in a troop. They can ask for an activity chair position, but it only means something if the activity gets planned! P.S. - I don't see a venture patrol as solving anything for a boy like this. It just masks the problem. The boy is there at a troop meeting, but he's only focused on planning the next high adventure -- not talking to younger boys, not encouraging them. To top it off, he can point to the adherance to your attendance policy in reply to any of the above questions.

MT - "Ok, everyone knows I'm SM.. But SM is not part of the committee.. I work for you.. You can fire me anytime.. Any time. Really, if you want to fire me now, I'm gone.. Really any time.." Yep, used that one once or twice. (And heard it used as well.) As far as closed meetings. The only that we sanction are an exectutive session between CC, SM, and Treasurer if there's a boy in serious financial straights. At a meeting down the road, the Treasure may note "dispersed $x to help a scouts attend an activity persuant to executive sessions on (dates)." We've kinda gotten around that by just giving the SM a larger discretionary budget, but the policy is in place so that folks know they can ask for help if the see a kid needs it and don't have to worry about the family's buisness being broadcasted to a dozen folks.

We have had this come up on several occasions (one with my dear wife and son's mother). 1. We make it clear that it if the boy expresses a desire to advance we snap to and help him. 2. If the boy is a great kid and could care less about advancement we let him have fun. If he accidently proves he learns something we may make him grab his book and get the SPL's signature. 3. If the boy does not want to contribute to the life of the troop, well he'll probably catch it from the SPL, but we'll tell the parent that we need to team up and help engage the boy -- not for the sake of advancement but because the kid's putting down a lot of (their) cash just to act surly. Fortunately, my boy fell into category #2. But, we've made it clear to everyone (advancement chair included) that in no way will the SM and ASM's heed a one-rank-advancement-per-year-per-boy goal. We insert the "horse-to-water" analogy. (Some of these folks have never led a horse anywhere so if anyone has a different one, please provide). If an adult sputters about that, I pull out the "I'm not gonna tarnish the value of my Eagle by browbeating someone to hike their trail faster." That usually settles it. I could pull out troop stats that show earlier T21 has not resulted in any more Eagles before 17, but people chalk that up as oh-so-much mumbo jumbo.

MT I get your commish's attitude, but try giving him my testimony. I was trained for years before I went to RT. Why? Because none of the training was at RT so I never saw the point of one more meeting a month. It took me a long time before I believed you could actually learn stuff at the breakout sessions. Any way if you have to do it on a different night or on a Saturday morning do what you gotta do.

SP Maybe selfish, but true. I've had a number of boys shy away from guard instruction because the responsibility was onerous. A year or two later, they'd join a VFD, or get EMT cert, or even get guard certified at a local pool. When they feel they have it in them to serve our unit in that caqpacity, we plan activities accordingly. We avoid the guilt trip. We simply set the bounds of our program by the certifications of our members.

We do in the USA have a International Scouter's Award. I kinda like the fact that I'm the only person in the Council I serve who has it! Consider the gauntlet thrown. Oh, wait, there's paperwork. Nevermind. I think you'd be surprised the number of scouters who make international connections. They just don't go blowing their horns about it. This year two of my crew members served at an orphanage in the Dominican Republic. One sent me a picture with her wearing her venturing t-shirt while she was being hugged by some orphans. It warmed the cockles of my heart. Whenever any of my youth take an overseas they try look up the local scouting organization. I can name at least three scouters in council who probably deserve the knot outright. If it's not on their shirt, I'll let them know about it. They'll probably shrug and walk away. ED, the youth from my council have to drop about $3500 to attend this year's contingent. Unfortunately my crew had reserved boats in the Bahamas for the same week. (Is that international enough?) Youth Euro-rail passes are dirt cheap. I always tell my kids, go while you can afford it.

As far as MB's go, cater to your strengths. Or if there is a counselor camping with you, or in the vicinity of your camp and can come visit every day, give him an hour of instruction time. I think a pioneering camp would be awesome. (Set aside a big rope budget.) If you're near a decent trail system, hiking/orienteering would be fun. There's one trail we hike that passes near a shooting range, and if I were in your position, I'd give them a call to see if they had a certified instructor to give your boys a day of their time. If your older boys have the aquatics skills (or you can get a guard instructor to come along for the price of his food) swimming is it. And here's one last one that'll make some of these guys cringe: if you can find a place walking distance to your town or county seat, schedule hikes in to visit community leaders and pass by historical sites -- knock off some of those citizenship requirements. It all depends on how much of the T21 requirements you've knocked off in advance. You might want one MB that advances the skills they already have, and another that covers skills they need to learn/practice. Have a weekend camp or two between now and then for the boys who are available. Give them a chance to pick up something cool to teach their buddies. (It doesn't have to be a scout skill, it could be a set of patrol skits/songs.) As much as I love summer camp, I kind of envy the opportunity you have. Even with my crew, we have to work so hard to pay for that week on a high adventure base that we can't afford the week in our back yard with some sweet hikes, dropping off of some pretty cool cliffs, and kayaking some neat waters.

This sounds like you're going to have a lot of folks taking this course who've seen/done camping with a troop before, so ... My perspective on food. Until woodbadge ... staff have never been able to put together a meal that compared to what was done in any "ad hoc" student patrol I was on. (And even then, our woodbadge patrol went over the top on their night 3 dinner - with plenty of tiramisu for the other patrols.) Your patrols will learn more about possibilities if you they hear about the menu's of the half dozen other patrols in camp. You may want to offer snacks and lunch just to keep folks around the instruction area. A coffee kiosk is not a bad idea. My perspective on instruction: have as little indoors as possible. Use the chapel or campfire arena if the camp has one. Your round-robin strategy is a good idea if your pavilons are spaced decently apart. You want to teach the way you expect scouts to learn. (Although, access to a building if the weather turns sour is never a bad idea.) Also, adults will listen to youth more readily than other adults. (Of course the youth might not listen to themselves by the fourth time they give the same presentation!) My perspective on preparation: have your "mandatory" meet 'n greet at a district roundtable. The commish will happy to see the attendance. Let the breakout session be IOLS prep (this is where you assign/elect patrols). Those who're already trained can listen to the prep, you can also ask them to offer a few pointers of how to make it work for them. Those who never signed up for IOLS? Invite them if you still have room. You may very well have precious little time besides getting folks into patrols, collecting payment, and saying "See you all Friday the __th", but think about how many hours of troop prep meetings some boys have before their 1st campout? Most of the prep should be done in patrols. A week or two before campout, call the PL's to see if they are on track. This is where you may find out that there's a group that may need to borrow a camp-box or tent or whatever. My thoughts on follow-up: after the course have a plan to send a note to the graduate's unit leader (and SPL/ crew president, maybe?) recognizing their training. Ask that it be read at the unit meeting. Encourage them to ask the graduate what was their best and worst memory about being in a patrol of adults.

Although it's not quite like partialling a merit badge, if they stay sharp with their skills, they should be able to easily get their certificate when they turn 15. It depends on the instructor. He might sign a note that the boys did everything but the age requirement. This might help a boy who was hoping to lifeguard this summer. It might not.

TC Does anyone write proposals this way professionally? I'm sure some professions do, but more likely proposals give general proposals and count on the competence of the folks implementing to proposal to figure out the details. Yes, we do. From architects, to gardeners, to doctors, to football teams. Ever since the first recessions that shut down our mills, folks with deep pockets want to know technical details before committing to anything. We haven't been able to create booms (like the costal housing markets) where people seem to have been willing to float twice the real value of a commody just to have it. I'm sure part of that rubs off on what we expect from the boys, especially if they are just a couple of years away from having to compete in our job market.