qwazse

People should keep in mind that parliamentary procedure is simply a way to make sure every opinion gets its fair share of time, and motions don't go ignored. If you are so cozy that you spend two hours at the end of which nobody knows what their assignments are, it's time to work on being formal. When parliamentary procedure is used to bash others, it's purpose is defeated. Then, maybe you need to spend a couple of hours being informal.

A squirt gun (i.e., the generic brightly colored bulbous variety -- although, now that the gun show guys have guns with pink stocks to cater to the ladies, whose to say that line isn't getting blurred as well?) is a simulated crowd control device, not a fire-arm. Marshmallows simulate rubber bullets. The intent is to startle/restrain not harm/maim. There is no prohibition in G2SS against simulated anti-riot gear.

Giant hamster wheel! A scout in his final year at summer camp modified plans for a ladder to make it. It was about 6 feet in circumference, and flexible with no axel. So, it operated more like a tank tread than a stationary wheel. He didn't have fresh wood, so it only lasted a few "rotations", but it was fun watching him work it out.

I asked for a pair of greys for Father's day. My family got a puppy instead. Any decent pair of grey pants or shorts will do for the venturing uniform. (Although it is nice to coordinate with your crew.) Last year's offering from the scout shop was far below decent.

Nice to know if you miss the fireworks, you can always log in ... Follow your SM's lead. Ignore the smoke blowing. Calling for "dismissal" of volunteers rarely solves anything. Was there ever a motion by the committee that this ASM had the authority approve camperships? If not, contact the mother and let her know the ASM was misinformed and her son is still eligible for a campership. The committee makes the decision. You may want to gently inform the ASM that you found her behavior toward another parent to be abrasive, and as an empathetic parent you would like things to happen differently in the future. Also, are there any positives that this ASM brings to the equation? Does she work well with the boys? Any good outdoor skills? Has she taken the time to get trained?

Didn't know about the point change. Son #2 took all of open program last week to meet reqs. (He didn't complete his Swimming partial from last year b/c of it!) I think he used the 20/35 red compounds. Can't remember what my reqs were back in the day, but I remember practicing for a year at 20 yards with a wood 25# recurve and wood arrows (no arrow rest either). I don't think I took that bow to camp, but adapting to the 35# fiberglass recurves was a piece of cake after all the practice with that clunker. (In it's favor, the wood did have a smoother draw.)

Most trainers that I know are not overwhelmed with students. It's not sponging if they're paying. Even if it is, I "sponge" off of the GS to re-up my CPR because they seem to have their act together to schedule trainings at my convenience. But, to get around all of this, I would suggest you invite the leaders interested in training to register with the BSA units, especially if the crew is co-ed. It's an extra $15 for them, but that makes them available as a resource to the crew and venturers available as a resource to them. (Hint, crews often need: 1. female chaperons for overnights and 2. youth who need instruction in a specific skill for bronze-award venturing candidates to teach.) Or they could register as an MBC in the troop. Not sure how many WB trainers have had "just MBC's" in their classes, but that would make for some interesting tickets! Regardless, push a little paperwork on the unit level -- problem solved. Any of you district or council folks see any problems with that?

E92 - Well the global politcs may amplify it, but culturally we tend to be brought up with a different leadership style. (E.g., "first to speak, last to listen." "My way or the highway." "Git 'er done.") Regardless of its validity, that stereotype leads folks to look to leaders from other nations to be the point-men when putting together multinational teams. I was in one of those situations many years ago, and it took me months to realise that having a Yankee as "the guy" didn't bring out the best in the team, but as a sidekick I could help move things along, and when the leader was in a jam, I could tell him "Hey, I have this 'you can run but you cannot hide' routine that works from time to time, I think you should give a shot. Just this once ..." I wasn't a parent at the time, and my kid's interest in scouting wasn't on the line. But I did grow a little. SB, I hope something similar happens with you and your CC. The more you tell us about it, the more my option #3 seems to be your ticket through (only maybe with some tea instead of coffee).

One would be surprised at how much time "off trail" is involved in taking youth camping. So, I wouldn't doubt that in some way FS was doing just that. Since I was party in derailing C!C!'s post, I'll come back to topic. There are parents who try to "game the system" -- partly out of lack of faith that their boy can make this trail on his own, partly out of a conditioning to domineer, partly because of a culture clash with a new troop and its traditions. There are also parents who "bump into" controls that a committee has in place to help boys advance decently and in order. There are some committee's that are officious and others that are outright belligerent. Telling one parent from the other or one committee from the other is impossible this side of the web. So we're, in different ways, telling folks to "play nice." As to concerns about impostors, it happens. Not so much on job/college hunts, but in more casual ways. For example, an 18 year old may be unwilling to admit he did not get his Eagle in spite of completing his project and all but one merit badge. Then when a scout, playing a "collect the signature" game asks him to sign the Eagle square he caves under the peer pressure. True story, and yes I did confront the young man discreetly after I heard about it. I pulled the "don't sully my badge again" card. I did not have a grand tribunal, but others may have. Bottom line: I don't care about the value any college or Armed force or employer puts on the badge. I do care about the value I put on it. Therefore, I will act accordingly and hope that I don't come off sounding abrasive in the process.

ED I'm interested in learning those differences. I think the differences are perception only. I've seen great results from jr ROTC and 4H. But BS and GS are far more general programs. It would be easier to believe some progressive admissions office would hold a lower view of seemingly narrowly focused activities, even if there is no data out there to support such an assertion. Calico - I had no doubt that the original assertions were based on zero facts. Thanks for confirming that.

I think you settled the procedural matter just fine. Folks who blow stuff out of proportion only make themselves look bad. You've explained yourself, if they try to report the issue you could say, "Fine, report me to HQ!" I like the view from the yard-arm. But, you also have a "people problem". Your CC was hurtful. Well, the only suggestion is to tell the CC (preferably over a cup of coffee) that you were hurt by how they handled this. You should have been contacted in person to help sort out what happened, and that you wish you didn't have to be on the defensive before all those people who got that E-mail. You might mention that you'd like to help out more in the troop, but if this is the way you are expected to treat people when they mistakenly push the wrong paperwork, you'd rather not be party to it. It happens all the time in our troop, (more with First Class requirements, but also with MB's sometimes). One of us goes to the parent/guardian and explains the fauxpas in person.

You have two options (well three, but you won't like the third one) ... 1. Tell the CC she needs to change her leadership style. If she doesn't you will apply to the COR to join the committee, and eventually ask to replace her. 2. Tell the COR she isn't working out, and suggest a different CC -- one that will grant ASMs voice on the committee. 3. Suck it up. Listen to her requests. Do what she says. In an SM's report to the committe tell how you've implemented her suggestions and evaluated of the results. Request a committee vote to approve/reject of the SM minutes. (That way you know if it's just her or a majority of the committee that are trying to guide you.) Oh and regarding the GS thing, I always use the line to the boys "I promise never to treat you like you're a GS." You may want to use that within earshot of your committee members sometime.

I couldn't find the quote in the article. Nevertheless, it does not include scouting, and there's no reason to assume it should. Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are much different than those other organisations. Other threads have already discussed that scouting on a resume, admissions, and scholarship applications is most often an asset -- rarely a liability. Even progressive institutions are looking for members with the stick-to-it-ivness required to be granted BSA or GSA awards. I was at a major university's engineering department graduation a couple of years back and in the program the valedictorian noted his Eagle; and another of the top 10, his Life rank. I'm sure in the four years since graduating high school, these boys had a chance to accomplish other things, but they chose to acknowledge their scouting experience before an audience of thousands. I'm not sure anyone did a fact-check before printing the program. But I have no reason to doubt these boys' declaration anymore than I would the young lady who's best accomplishment was founding the "Harry Potter Society".

Venturing females learning to throw axes with deadly accuracy ... it's enough to make any guy think twice. (Just sayin', dads ...) Back to topic ... I forgot to toss clippers or small penknife in my tackle box this week. It was a hassle trying to use the sheath knife for cutting monofilament line. The tool was too big for a small job. But, I'm glad it wasn't banned.

I think the intent here is that a scout may have gained an interest in a topic and started on some of the requirements (either out of ignorance or enthusiasm) before meeting the counselor. Then the boy should bring the stuff he started on, especially if it's good work that the counselor would have approved anyway. Also, the original counselor may still be on the district's list even if he/she is no longer active with the troop. (Sometimes those rolls take years to delete.) I'd check with HQ and, if they'd still take a sign-off on any MB's started by him/her, let the original counselor know his/her standing regarding incomplete MB's. In short, you probably have options. Do what makes the most sense for this boy.

23 registered. Attendance has been around 15. 19 are at summer camp.

We meet weekly every evening that the local school is in session. We shoot for camping 1 weekend/month. Plus summer camp. This is essential. I had a boy leave summer camp after three days because the bugs got to him (psychologically, not physically). He specifically asked, "Can I still come on winter campouts? I like when it's so cold that I don't have to worry about bugs." If all goes as planned, this would mean 18-24 camping nights. In reality some months all the boys are occupied with other activities and we've had to cancel. So, the tally is closer to 12-18 nights. The older boys have access to our Venturing crew (which meets twice a month and usually offers about four camping weekends plus a super-activity) and O/A (which offers a couple service weekends and a winter weekend).

MS I just left the boys at camp where an SPL was managing three patrols of six. His situtation is similar to yours ... different school, somewhat different interests, more a manager than a drill instructor. All that to say, you're an SPL with a PL patch. You've already identified the need for other active "sub-PL's" if you are to be successful. And you've realized that coordinating with other units (in this case, those other large patrols) is important. But, the numbers/patch game is irrelevant. If these boys see each other as a patrol, then they will be even if adults split them. The bottom line then, is how much lattitude your SM will give you and how many ASM's there are to back up a troop that may have preferences for very diverse BSA activities. The key? Communicate communicate communicate. I think you have the right idea for trying to make good use of electronic media tools. One tip: quickly evaluate each tool you use, and if it doesn't work as expected (e.g., if your key boys and their parents can't or wont use it), drop it for "lower tech alternatives". Regarding the PLC's "electoral college" preference for camp B, listen very carefully to why they prefer it. (Be forgiving if the reasons are poorly presented, you're fishing for substance here, not form.) If there is enough in reasons for you all to work out a compromise (e.g. one camp one year, the other the next) I would strike that deal. It would impress the adults more that you worked out a unified strategy on your own. (Can you tell, I'm no fan of powerpoint debates?) Anyway, all the best. You're off to a good start.

ScoutNut may be a little paranoid, but I've found his observations of the Byzantine workings of this organization are not too far off. One word of caution, never confuse a sympathetic ear for an alliance ... He looks completely foolish to anyone in our Troop that I share the details with ... I have heard phrases like this before, from someone who thought they'd be in this organization forever, about someone who he thought would be doomed to wreck a unit. The former is no longer an official leader, while the latter is fostering a booming troop. Just sayin' the path you describe is well-trodden ...

It probably means he will be subject to some cleaver marketing schemes.

In all of the text lashing this useful question went unanswered ... How frequently does a Troop set a higher standard than the BSA? Well, I'm no statistician (at least not on my day off), but I figure it's fairly frequent. For example, the first time our Troop/Crew went to Seabase, we required the adults to have completed Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills (or whatever they called it 5 years ago) and Venturing Leader Specific Training. That's way above BSA's reqs. I tried to require VLST for the upcoming trip, but our council botched the schedule. (The next course is two weekends after our return!) I talked it over with other with other more experienced advisors who my CC would trust before letting that standard go.

about your Troop, but trips like this cannot be turned over to the boys. There's where Venturing is supposed to be different ... Every aspect of my crew's trip, every twist and turn, every rule, has gone through the youth (whom are the same age range as your contingent). If they thought a policy was stupid, we dropped it. All checks and cash go through my youth treasurer. I send her any invoices that come to me, and she handles my reciepts. She requests a check from my adult treasurer and sends it where needed. Boat assignments (including which adults chaperon with whom) are their responsibility. They have read the Guide to Safe Scouting. If an adult wanted to manipulate things (and they did), I told them "not my call, bring it up with the youth." They fill out the tour plan and collect signatures. The VP admin gets a copy. There are some scouters among us who say the 14-and-up boys in their troop have the same range of authority. I'll confess, five years ago I may have had as low opinion of the boy's abilities as you have now. I know adults who held that opinion, and seemed it was constantly them butting heads with other adult leaders. I decided, "why not spare myself the drama, and let the youth take the helm?" The youth have yet to let me down. They dissipated lot of the blow-hards' steam. (It's really hard to be an intransigent committee member when a Crew President and her posse are asking you for a better reason than the one just offered.) I'm not saying it would have worked with your CC and COR, but you missed an opportunity for the youth to give it a shot. Besides, youth led is the rule. 'Nuff said. I do hope they find your replacement and the trip goes forward. If it does, I would recommend taking your refund to buy the ticket to fly with your boy to FLL. You seem to think highly enough of the boys and your co-leader to make it worthwhile. If you want to pull your son, that's your prerogative. In my crew there are no refunds. (Our treasury is bare-bones.) It would be your son's responsibility to find his own replacement. Or if the other youth wanted, they could opt to shell out the extra $$ to cover the unused share of the boat.

This is why I characterized rrafalo's approach as "juvenile" as well, since it plays into that silly tit-for-tat nonsense which can end up doin' more harm than good. Beav - that's an insult to juvenile's everywhere. rr - As an advisor I would be fuming (and have fumed) over adults using my crew's good name to play an end-around on some other adult leader. So, now we have a green light to proceed and everyone WINS. Our Troop's Committee Chairman wins because he did not sign a Tour Plan he was not happy with, and I win because I still get to co-lead this outing. Most importantly, ALL the boys win! How have any of the boys "won?" Did you give them a chance to determine if the CC was fair? Did the boys have an opportunity to talk to the CC? Did the boys choose this course of action? Did the crew President and VP of Program approve your request to sail under their flag? Heck you didn't even let your son know about the roller-coaster you were riding! Sure you, your wallet, and your vacation plans have a phyrric victory. But you've squandered a leadership opportunity. You haven't taught the boys to stand up to anything, because it wasn't them doing the standing! In my book you owe the boys an apology. You and your co-leader should promise them that they will have control of the trip from hear on out.

Beav, There are ways to do that. Simplest for him might be to say that their crew does not offer Boy Scouting advancement. So lads who want to earn Star, Life, or Eagle have to stay active in the troop. I've as much told kids that's how I'd prefer they operate. However, if a venturer says "I want to advance through the crew.", I wouldn't turn him down. And if most of his activity was through the troop, and he hardly attended crew meetings, it wouldn't count against his advancement the way I read the requirements. (It would make me want to call the SM to try and get an idea of where this kid is coming from.) Fact is, so far four of my venturers used their crew PORs towards rank advancement in the troop. Calico - I met troops where the boys came up with the attendance requirements. They were a little fed up with half-planned adventures by half attentive SPLs and PLs where only half the boys who signed up would put in even half the effort. So, I wouldn't chalk attendance requirements as always adult-led. But, although boys may start them, it takes adults to hand them down across the generations.

I was a band dork in HS. Did it slow my rank advancement? Maybe. But so did watching Wide World of Sports on the Saturdays I wasn't camping or at band practice! Be very statisfied that he got 1st class in two years. (My #2 son took 3.) Now's the time to stop looking at other boys. Maybe that leap ahead in rank will mean one, maybe two, will get Eagle soon, but in normal circumstances the rest will be dawdling along until a light goes on at age 17.5 (probably later for a couple that will miss the deadline). There's no reason that that one band member couldn't hold a leadership position that would count toward advancement. I think your wife sitting and talking is the best first step. Stop talking to the boy about advancement. Now that he's 1st class, start asking what kind of outing he'd like to plan for his patrol. Maybe there's a place he'd like to take the family to see. Ask if there's a high adventure base or jamboree he'd like to save up for. Give him a few extra chores worth your paying him to do. After a summer of hard work around the house, he might decide that working on those required merit badges might be a good way to get some time off!