qwazse

[He tells me to read the Leader's Manual. Then he tells me it ain't necessarily so. I feel like I'm in theology class. ] We can have Lone Scouts, too. But that's not how Boy Scouts were designed to operate. If you had 8 Lone Scouts living within a half-mile of one another, you'd say "Dudes, form a troop already!" When councils come up short with support for VOA's or what-have-you, the natural inclination of crews should be to pull together and do their own networking. Why? Because the officers read the Leadership Manual, go to their advisor, and say "Dude, how can we pull off this Teen Leader Council thing?" The advisor might say, TLC/VOA is non-existent in council, but a kid who's serious about what he/she just read will say, "Well, can't we make our own?" That's what you did, that's what a neighboring crew did for our crew a few years ago when they had open slots for Philmont and communication through VOA was spotty, that's what our crew did this December for a neighboring crew that had newbies who wanted to try some winter backpacking (in turn they provided a female advisor for our YP requirement). I've seen many a troop get by with zero district participation (on the boys' part, not the adults'). They pick up the handbook and work their patrols and advancement program as written, and they're fine. That's why when our PLC decides they don't want to do any camporees, we're fine with it. But, even if crews work "independently" they need at least "a few district events thrown in for a change of pace" -- your words, not mine. That, my friend, is what we call networking. A group of 14-20 year olds who gets a BSA charter and makes no effort to pick the phone and find out what their neighbors are up to is a club. They might be the sharpest club around -- with grey pants and kelly-green shirts full of bling, but a club nonetheless. (Frankly, I have yet to see a youth with a shirt full of bling who wasn't also heavily involved in a VOA at some tier, but I don't get out that much.)

Sounds like your sold on the m&m's. But, as a practical matter, I've found that a snack-size ziplock in my pack has the added advantage that I can see when I need to restock without opening the container. These kids aren't backpackers (yet), so it's a moot point. But, once they've made theirs, you may ask them to think about other containers that might work just as well.

In the other thread, we were debating over my opinion that a propensity to network (through VOA or less formal association with other youth movements) is what distinguishes a "crew" -- in the Venturing sense of the word -- from a "club" or "paper crew." Anyway, I wanted to know in what ways you or your crew are "innies" (tend to just do your thing and steer clear of council or other crew activities) or "outies" (tend to connect to other crews, Council VOA, or other "upper tier" Venturing associations). How do you operate? What barriers do you experience?

Short Your entire argument that crews aren't Real Crews until they connect with other crews stems from the word "a"? If it were just one word, would that make it a flawed argument? Keep in mind that it's nearly every "demonstrate" requirement in each bronze award requirement that has this inclusive thrust -where your own crew is just one of many possible outlets - contrasted to the more exclusive requirements for Boy Scout rank advancement. BP's correct, that inclusive language in itself does not preclude every youth in a crew seeking recognition by only doing everything within a crew. So, let's take a look at the Leader's Manual. I'll thumb to page 12 ... under Crew President's responsibilities ... "Represents the crew at Teen Leader's Council meeting and council TLC planning conference ..." This duty is listed before some of the other within-crew responsibilities that we might associate with a common club president. Furthermmore, page 15 says the Administrative VP "Participates in council TLC program planning conference ..." Generally, TLC's have been re-cast as VOA's. But the leadership guide is very clear that by definition, crew officers, if they properly fulfill their duties, will be agents of their Council as well as their crew. There is no indication that participation is "supplemental" or "not required". Of course we try not to use the word "required" around these kids too often. And, if it's the crew quartermaster who attends VOA in the president or VP's stead, we'll take him/her!

Short Please tell me on what page of any Venturing handbook or materials I can find this interpretation of the program. Either you or I have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Venturing is. Maybe I've got the Venturing handbook upside down, but here goes ... Nearly every third bronze award requirement reads something like this ... "Demonstrate by means of a presentation at a crew meeting, or a Cub Scout or Boy Scout meeting ..." Note that the wording is "a crew meeting" not "your crew meeting". This is much different than the Boy Scout Handbook (where we read "your" troop/patrol etc ...). The entire thrust of awards and recognition is to "nudge" venturers outside their own circles of association to achieve goals of personal development. The word "venturing" carries no implication of insularity. (I was going to say there was no "in" in "venturer", but I could see one of my crew replying, "But it's in venturINg!") National is not going to prevent a "club" from signing up as a crew on paper and doing it's own little thing, only recognising when a kid does something directly related to the club, never encouraging a youth to check out what crew X is doing or how they can support the mission of troop/pack Y or any other youth movement in their community. But as far as I'm concerned, that's a paper crew. It undermines the intent of what the program materials are trying to get these youth to do. And, pardon my "fundamental misunderstanding." It's basically what I got out of my Venturing Leader Specific Training. That, and the line "Congratulations, I'm sure you'll do a fine job."(This message has been edited by qwazse)

Sounds like the lodge advisor needs a little creativity. E.g. stop by with the chapter reps on a campout or combined activity. I definitely can relate to the boys not wanting/remembering to attend special meeting just for elections. We tried that this year and it was a flop. You may need a little leverage, e.g. ice-cream/pizza night, to throw in the mix. Regardless, if the lodge figures out how to solve the issue with this one troop, it sounds like they may succede with other troops as well.

Since Eng brought it up, it's always a good policy to review riptides with your kids before they hit the beach. http://www.ripcurrents.noaa.gov/ My kids got caught in one in NJ a couple of years ago. They knew exactly what to do, and got to shore no worse for the long walk back. My wife watch it happen and told me they were in control the whole time.

Short - It's certainly true that crew-to-crew links are encouraged through VOAs and the Corps of Discovery, etc., but in no way are they a benchmark of a quality crew program. Agreed. Not a benchmark. But not healthy either. There are no other crews like them in the council. Under your way of thinking, none of those crews are real because they don't connect with other crews ... crews which have a completely different program focus and have utterly no reason to interact with them. I would posit that those "clubs" don't become crews until they promote themselves council-wide. They look good on paper, but if they don't have even one representative show up at at least one council/area event at least once a year, they do themselves and their council a disservice. Why? Because I bet there is at least one youth out there who would be interested in that church's religious outreach, or that hobby shop's RC plane event, or what-have-you. It's the very fact that crews have radically different program foci that they should network. And this goes back to Breany's OP. If you're just going to be a chapter unto yourself, don't bother with the paperwork. If you're going to be a crew that strongly encourages multiple membership with other units in council, bringing in youth who might otherwise not join scouting, service, etc ... it may be worth it. Calico ... As far as record-keeping within council, all of our youth who are members of multiple units have one memberid. My crew roster has a count of paid and unpaid youth and adults. (I.e., their registration fee was collected by our unit or some other unit. If they paid through our unit, their card comes to us to give to them. If they paid through another unit, their card goes there. Multiple units: one card.)

Durn cell phone worked at camp this year. Fortunately it was utterly useless on our week at Seabase Bahamas. I consider home to be where the cell phone has no bars. I try to get back there as often as possible.

In the crew I'm in the opposite situation. My older youth are so "FB burnt out" that they are starting to avoid it. Too many friends, too many notifications to wade through, they just tune it all out. My younger youth, I think, have been encouraged (sometimes from the pulpit) to friend the adults whom they know and trust. They are taught that if they aren't bold enough to use FB with "the whole communtity" there to hold them accountable, they don't deserve to use it at all. Anyway, so far there's been nothing that boys haven't said on FB that doesn't wind up being said at camp when we can call them on it the minute it issues from their mouths. Obviously, if it happens at camp, it can be part of the BOR. The impertinent FB statuses just help teach the boy that clean and reverent require work outside the meeting room!

The sad thing is that goals have gotten heavier over the years so that folks wouldn't have to worry about the hassle of anchoring them. They are movable so that the same field can be used for football as well. Think about it. Would anyone ever insist on a mobile backstop so a baseball field could be dual use? And yes, the BSA should require boys to learn the basics of safety for whatever sport they play. If they now need to know to anchor goals before they run out on the field, so be it. It's no different than when we explain safe swim areas to cubs. They may not have the skills to set it up, but if they are all taught, then hopefully one of them will pipe up when they see something amiss.

Short Now we hear from qwasze that "real" crews are those that interact with other crews in the council. Does that definition apply to packs and troops as well? I don't think so. (Sorry district guys.) That is, the adults should interact with the district on some level, but packs' and troops' programs are so structured that I don't see them needing to have their boys interact with other units if they don't want to. A crew, on the other hand depends on the various connections of its members for its vitality. If a couple of venturers in climbing crew X would rather do some kayaking, they will either convince their crew to add it to the agenda, learn about kayaking crew Y and multiple register, or decide that venturing is not for them because their crew didn't make the effort to find out what other crews in their council are up to. I think a camp crew or chapter crew, if it is truly connected with the council, has a lot of potential to get youth "hooked in" to a broader view of scouting and service. Just sayin' if we forget about the numbers game, there is something in it for the kid who's multiple registered.

Short: I'm left wondering what the difference is between a "paper" unit and a "real" unit. A real unit has an advisor that hates paperwork so badly that he/she will act to add substance to that piece of paper called a charter. TwoC: Do they intend to be Venturers, to be crew officers and work toward Venturing advancement? Advancement is not a method of Venturing, and very few Venturers will be officers. So, that kind of muddies the waters. But you're close to the mark. If this "crew" acts like a youth-led movement with an advisor who has a heart for supporting council camps. Then it's a real crew with opportunities for youth to connect with other crews in council. I guess you could say my definition of "real" crews (be they "themed" around camp staff, O/A, or a ski club) involves a minimum level of networking with all other crews in council. Not networking? Not a crew. A clique maybe, but not a crew.

BS, Sounds like you're not the instant gratification kind of guy this woman is looking for. That said, I don't think you need to worry about the fishing MB. As long as the boys are getting her signature if they complete the requirements, accept the card. I would leave it up to the boy to switch. And, only suggest it to him if you know of a better counselor (e.g. catches more fish, teaches boys to cook them really well).

At summer camp, we usually have a couple out of about 25 boys complete the mile ... then do a 5 mile hike after breakfast, and a 4 mile canoe trip after lunch. Never bothered with the first three requirements, but these kids are usually earning swimming or lifesaving at the same time, so we never worried about it. Have yet to see a boy order the mile swim patch. Anyway, just came from Seabase Bahamas and Capt. anchored at a substantial distance from the reefs, so some of the snorkels were pretty hard swims, even with flippers. Unless they had been conditioning for soccer all summer, the youth who had not done mile swims before took a couple of days to get into the routine.

This may sound hockey but ... Step 1: LOVE THE KIDS You have six. Get to know each one and their interest. If they like to watch wood burn, burn wood. If they like to swim, meet at the pool. If they like walks, find a local hike for the afternoon. If one is in a top-noch dance class, go to their recital. In the process you will hear the conversations you need to hear to plan the "next big thing". Step 2: FEED THE KIDS Smores (a variety of chocolate keeps their interest), Pizza, a special trail snack, the local coffee shop. Step 3: ASK WHO's MISSING? They each probably could name someone who would enjoy an activity. Get them to think about that. Well anyway, that's a start. The key thing is to make sure those six are getting something out of the program. If you're not the advisor, let the crew president know you could be available to help a youth prepare a weekend of .

As mentioned in other threads, I will fudge "EDGE". But only for the scouts who have successfully taught another scout skills.

Who signed off on the requirements? It should have been a patrol leader or SPL who tested them on the task. If they know the material, then it's not to fast. If they don't, oops ... I would make sure the 1st class candidate knows his material before advancing him. It's not like it's taken the kid three years and he would be rusty on some knots in this age of velcro. All of the material should be fresh.

Have you met a female venturer who really wanted another patch over the right pocket of her green shirt? I've met very few that even wanted the green shirt!

SR540, Part of a good hike plan includes estimating the competence of the leaders (youth of adult). A high adventure trip clearly needs stronger leadership. [Dis]orienteering hikes are par for the course with my group. The youth know that they will not be informed that they've chosen a wrong path until they are about a mile or so down it. (Our adult's have to be okay with a few extra miles than planned.) The youth usually tighten up after the first missed turn! A "talk with the crew chief" is secondary prevention. You can only hope it happens before something life-threatening occurs. I've known adults to lead hikers wrongly. So, regardless of age, the challenge is getting everyone's brains operating and making sure any safety concerns are communicated and collectively respected. That's easier said than done, but, you're right, training the "fore hikers" to hold up for the rest of their mates is a good first step.

E92 - I don't see there being any problem using the images as long as you're not selling the loops. But honestly, ilford, you might do just as well hiring a local metal worker to stamp out a bunch of blanks with your own images or the name of each skill. (Include your troop # for good measure.) You could make a jig for bending, make it adjustable in case the boys want to fit their belts. (E.g., a boy might want to wear a leather belt he made at camp with his uniform.) The boys could be responsible for bending/painting the awards. As long as the boys understand they don't have to "earn" a skill award to make rank, there's no problem. The real question here is, are your boys interested in them? I think involving them in the manufacture of the award will increase that interest.

I think if the facilities are sufficient, having them meet simultaneously is a good idea. Our groups don't share the same meeting times or space, but we do invite one another to some activities/service projects. I'm sure if we saw each other more often, more of our activities could be shared in common. The real issue is leadership. It's a rare adult who is willing to be trained well in one organization. Rarer still one who is willing to be trained in both. It takes time for all the adult leaders to get a sufficient understanding of the different rules they are working under, and at a certain point it's not worth the effort to do lots of things in unison. By the time they reach high school, they could all be venturers -- in addition to members of their respective troops -- and really increase the information sharing between groups. But that's probably beyond the objectives of homeschool organization.

FWIW, I've found it really important to have folks like Eng61 as well as parents from "the other side of the tracks" on committee. Because when there's a discipline issue that makes it into the SM report, we need opinions from different angles to adress it. It's nice to sit in a room of concerned parents and say once, "This is how I would like us to handle this one." It's also nice to have folks collectively evaluate the situation and say (if they have to), "This one's out of your league." This kind of back-and-forth is a growing process for the adults as well as the kids. Hopefully that growing is into more thoughtful and caring adults.

SP - Some "hikes" are actually level 3 climbs. Knowing the difference and when to require helmets and climbing signals (such as "rock!"), is a challenge. It's not like these things are always marked on hiking maps. Eng - I spent several moments this weekend talking boys off of cliff edges. Sedimentary rock looks real stable from the top, looking down the canyon to the next rim, however, one begins to realize what may not lie beneath .... SR540 - Short of GPS activated shock-collars, I don't know how you implement such a policy at all times. In this case, travelling in a contingent of more than 10 may have undermined any attempt to maintain order. Here's hoping that the boys had time to think and "break down" what errors were made, and what they will do differently next time. Hope the hospital has a few "Roadrunner" re-runs.

SR540 - it probably has more to do with reporting. We have as many tragedies on this side of the Mississippi. Three years, and I haven't gotten over a loss in our troop. That one never made it as a topic on this board, nor did we intend it to. I do know that the mom has appreciated our (somewhat feeble) gestures to remember the young man. His buddies, my son included, have grown through it all. Pray that the young men around these two manage to do the same.