qwazse

Ah, but TT made a practical tweak. And using the EDGE method, enabled his boys to follow it. Since that method doesn't require reading any reference, in a couple years the boys may never know their doing things differently! Regardless, you get the "super achiever" parents. Even doing it "by the book", I still hear a little of "so-and-so" needs to be APL/PL/ASPL/whatever. I'm not sure there is any good solution but to hold the boys to their decisions and work with them to smooth out the rough spots. Listen at the SM conferences for the upper ranks. Ask about the quality of your election process. If a boy suggests trying something different, you may want to give it a go.

If you sign on as outings chair, the really cleaver thing to do is ask one of your parents "I don't think I can make the next committee meeting, would you mind going and taking notes for me? You can breif the folks planning outings when we meet for coffee next week at ..." This works well if you do have parents who can spare the time, but are afraid of taking that "leadership risk." It doesn't work so well if you have parents that are pulling double shifts just to make ends meet.

And what of that boy who left his belongings? He who has no respect for his environs, who cares little who for the goods his parents paid dearly for, who expects his fellow scouts and scouters to clean up his leavings as though they were his chaimbermaids? He has humilitated his own troop. No doubt at home he expects his mother to abase herself, and by his repeated or occasional action (or, rather, inaction) broken her to his slothfull will. It is the likes of him who make the self-appointed gaurdians of wilderness recreation areas cringe when they see a trailer with the fleur-de-lis pull up to a trailhead. That make them say, "Wonder what 'goodies' we'll find on the trail Sunday afternoon!" Will I use harsh words toward this boy? Not at all. Will I cut him off from our unit? Nay! Beatings? Heaven forbid! A fine? Please, no more paperwork! Rather, I will have him join in the humility that we all should should feel when we realise that our material wants, along with our inability to manage them, have rendered us less than perfect. And that, my friends, is what singing has to do with leaving your site less ordered than when you found it.

As mentioned in the other thread. We sing. What I didn't explain: If a boy's shy, the SPL and PL's will join him (half the time, they have to sing for stuff anyway). Usually there are several items, and the boys line up together. Our crew doesn't meet as frequently, and they do a lot of organizing online, so I was toying with making venturers post a Youtube of them singing to claim the stuff they left in my van. But the president wisely nixed that one!

Hey I'm an old crow! One year old, that is. We'd line up after the Antelopes, focused and determined. Ready to ... Ohh, look, a shiny!

Have your son write the publisher. That'll make sure the correction gets made in the next printing. It's also a good experience to get a note back from the editor. Most do reply to these sort of things.

One would do well to think of the HA bases as training centers. They are pretty tightly controlled environments. You can find much wilder for much fewer $$, but you need more conditioning and team building to enjoy it to the fullest. For example, I asked our captain at Seabase Bahamas if he ever hosted any Sea Scouts. He hadn't. That made sense to me after a little. Being on someone else's boat following someone else's well refined float plan is not something a successful sea scout ship would be interested in. Certainly NT is the most isolated, if that's what you mean by wild. And most folks tell me Philmont is probably the most physically exerting. That said, eagle rays with 15 foot tails don't just rise up in front of you out of the deep in the boundary waters. And, you ain't dodging coral scrapes and sea nettles to harvest conch in the rockies!

Who is this "we" you speak of? Our troop PLC sets the dress code. If a scout comes to them about something that should change, they consider it. The SM only steps in if it's a flagrant deviation from the National norm (e.g. bermuda shorts with the tan shirt). Our crew ... well, let's not even go there.

We sing for stuff (as individuals or in groups) all the time. In fact, I've gotten so good at it the boys just give me my stuff back and sometimes "forget" to ask me to sing. I would never call that hazing. Why? It demeans what true victims of hazing have had to endure.

"Blinders" are in the eye of the beholder. But I've seen more folks get a grip on their own faith as I've been able to spell out my own. Anyway, seems that Merlyn finds it hypocritical that we might give a youth 7 years to decide if the Statement of Religious Principle is not for him, and we'd drum an adult out instantly. My approach is a matter of pure practicality. Some American boys change their religion as often as they do their underwear. Imagine the scenario: Monday (at scoutmaster conference): "I'm and atheist." "Okay turn in your membership card, and I don't want to see you in that uniform." Tuesday (after his buddy talks to him): "I believe in God now." "Okay here's your card back. Wear your uni if you want." Wednesday (after his girlfriend jilts him): "That's it, there's no God" "Give me your card. And take off the uniform." Thursday (when he remembers about the campout this weekend): "What was that 'sum of stuff' line that Mr. Kudu stuck me with? That's my higher power now." "Here's the permission slip, get your folks' signature..." Friday (after he hears me slip a cuss word about paperwork): "Ya know, if you don't take it seriously, then I'm not ..." "But we just bought all the food for the weekend. Now go find me a believer to take your place!" There's no way on Monday that I can tell if a boy will be a strident unbeliever or more like the kid above. So do I buy into that roller coaster in some feeble attempt to "keep a pure flock" of scouts? Or do I shut my mouth and give the boys the time and space to grow into their belief while watching me try to sort out mine? Well *my* religion says I gotta let the tares grow up among the wheat until I or anyone else can tell them apart. So that's my plan. Sorry, I didn't write the rules (nor did the BSA) ...(This message has been edited by qwazse)

I'm no universalist, by any stretch of imagination. But, I know that for many post-moderns (i.e., nearly all of our boys), quoting verses is idle story time. Your religion might as well be another walk-through of a video game. In that sense an animist may very well "get it" better than some text-parsing theologian. But, regardless of where you are on that spectrum ... *You* are the best scripture a boy may ever read. How you act, not what you say, will help him determine if this reverent thing is all it's cracked up to be.

OGE, the point is that God (now matter how generally we define it) is a distinctly human construct. The boy's puppy isn't concerned about it at all. So, he's come to the conclusion that he doesn't need to be either. We want to show him that other people think differently. Now we can argue 'till we're blue in the face about that construct coming from external or internal sources -- wether it's personal or impersonal. (I tend to believe, after these few years of living, that it's external and quite personal. Some of my psychologist colleagues say otherwise.) So, to rephrase Kudu (a foolish thing to do indeed), say to the boy "come hike with us". On the hike, point out the few things that really amaze you. At the end of the day, explain (in a couple of scentences) why the things your saw give you a higher regard for the God you worship. Give the boys a chance to chime in -- there may be a boy who's particularly good at that sort of thing. Sure, maybe quoting Spinoza would be the scholarly thing to do. I don't think it's essential. As the boy grows he may want to know why nearly all of humanity buys into this higher power thing, but for now he's focused on "what's in it for me?" The out-of-doors is the best tool for dulling narcissim that I have ever seen. Lather - rinse - repeat. More outings, less talk. MattR - for some questions, there's no point in answering with words.

While we're talking $$'s here, if you think the price for you to go is prohibitive, you may want to consider staying at home and sponsoring a young man or woman to serve as staff or adult leaders. (I knew two who went last year, one as an ASM and the other as a climbing instructor, they did awesome work and had a great time.) Jambo fees are half for 16 to 25 year old volunteers, but even that can be prohibitive for a college kid or graduate student. You were just toying with going yourself. Maybe you know a young person who would be a great volunteer for an event like this. He or she might do you the favor of checking in on your son every now and then. All they might need is a little encouragement on the financial end. And he or she would be less likely to load their uni with knots making them look like 3rd world dictators!

Your expenses as an essential leader may be considered a charitable contribution. This includes fees, travel required to get to the event, and uniforms that are expressely purposed for the organization. Your kid's expensenses are not. A contribution you make to your chartered organization so that other kids can go to the event may be. Depends on the nature of your chartered organization and how they account for stuff.

I think with younger kids you want to start with the dictionary definition. I could care less if your statement of faith matches mine, if you are generally disrespectful at anyone's religion (or lack thereof), that needs to change. If the kid can handle "respecting the religion of others" for now (e.g., not being disruptive in church if he has to go, not teasing his friends or enemies over matters of faith), that's a start for Tenderfoot. You do need to inform the parents about the discussion, and the expectation in scouting is that as the boy matures his opinion will grow (however nebulous) towards respecting a deity. And it needs to be clear that advancement to Eagle depends on him being able to describe that in his own terms.

I'm now at the fish-or-cut-bait point of stepping in and disallowing some of the appointments or not. Fish. (I think. If by that you're meaning work with the boys appointed.) In a month have the SPL pull up any lines that aren't "hitting." Recently the SM and I had to admit to the committee "The popular boy - not the best leader - got elected SPL. As much as we don't like it, we'll deal with it." It was a risk because some parents of younger scouts were in the room. We had already lost a few boys because parents didn't appreciate our willingness to let this youth have the reigns. (They formed a new troop, so we didn't feel all that bad about it.) But, the parents in the room got that some day it may be their boy about whom everyone is having doubts. Like Stosh said, the more mature boys will find ways to serve. For example, one boy planned our spring backpacking trip for us -- including any necessary training and equipment procurement. No instructor's patch required. But like us, you or a tactful ASM will probably want to have a sit-down with parents to explain the challenges ahead.

I love pulling the "not my job card" on upset absentee leaders! SP's right. I know folks whose Pack treasuries "disappeared". A little wisdom and accountability is in order. Point is, you want to encourage the old guard to stick around, so thank them for jumping on this because even if the kids don't appreciate it, it's good to know that responsible people care about these boys $$'s! Encourage them that even though it may take a little more of their time, helping train these young parents will pay off in the long run.

Twocub, It sounds like you have a big enough troop, so there are several ways you can endure this "bump" in the road. Obviously, get the PLC running ASAP. Whoever misses the first one (without calling in with a reasonable excuse in advance), you ask the SPL to find his replacement. Seriously, first part of the meeting: roll call. SPL says who's missing, you ask why, he doesn't know, you say no worries, we'll announce at the next meeting that the position is open. If the boy shows up late, it's up to you how much grace you should dispense. Obviously, you can have the kid who got bumped make a case for why he should be reappointed. The point is, that you want a young SPL to deal with any poor choices early in his career, and you don't want anyone coasting through their positions of responsibility. Talk to a couple older boys. There may be more to this than meets the eye. The older scouts may be caught up in other activities and may have asked to be passed over. They might sincerly feel that their patrols will be better if, instead of being "the guy", they set an example of following younger PL's. Try not to let on that you're concerned about the situation, but try to get their opinion. Make it clear that you still want this troop to work for them! There are plenty roles for older boys in this kind of situation. Maybe a couple could organize an Introduction to Leadership Skills for Troops for the new PLC. Some others might offer themselves as specialty instructors or activity coordinators. Then you can tell the PLC, "Life scouts Joe and Bob are availble weekend x to give you guys ILST, Mark's learned to do some cool things at the autobody shop, and Eagle scout William has some connections at the sportsman's club, etc ... you want to give them a call?" That way everybody knows that regardless of what's on your sleave, there's plenty of leading to do. I'm not a fan of older boys forming their venture patrol in this situation. But if they have a particular goal in mind (e.g. hike 100 miles this year), it may be the right time for it.

Now might be a good time to call/E-mail your council (which I think may be mine, too) get in touch with their Jamboree chairperson, and let them know you are anxious to help budget this for your son and tell them what price would be a "deal breaker" for you. My kids have voiced no interest in Jambo, so I've never weighed in with anyone who might be planning the trip. Note that in general, the adults only go to Jambo as scoutmasters or assistants in their council contingent or as Jamboree staff. The practical upshot is that you won't cross paths with your son too much. So the choice for you may boil down to volunteer service or family vaction. Not telling you what you should decide, just sayin that you should spell it out with your spouse so the both of you can sort out what's really important.

Last fall, one of my youth arranged for Kielbasa foil packs on a Weber gas grill. They turned out really well. Not something you can pack in a long ways, but plenty good if you can bring a car in.

I think the Baby Boomers with connections stretched that upper limit to include the likes of me so they could look less outdated than they really were! I might suggest that you see who on your committee might have a camp or a boat where your SM can get a weekend with just the adults. If you got a tough group of kids, he probably could use some time to talk comfortably about 'em so that everyone is on the same page! Even if you don't have anything better than what you all are doing to offer in terms of advice, it might be worth it to get a good laugh out of your predicament! Who knows? Another 6 years and that boy might be sitting around your adult campfire giving you his perspective!

A bottle of 200 proof is cheaper and has more flexible uses. But seriously, BD, you have a right to sit a boy down with his mom and say "you have a problem, it is ..., you need to fix it, here's how to start [hand out diversion brochures] ... if you make the effort to do this, it will help me to work with you to be a better scout ... if you want to do this with your patrol, I'll see what we can do to help ... if you only want to do this with your mom and maybe your little brother, that's fine too. I will do my best to support you and make it happen. We'll talk about how it works out at your next scoutmaster conference." You can tell your committee that ... a. you strongly suggested -- not required. b. you offered the patrol method. c. you gave the family an opportunity they may have otherwise missed. d. you will enforce discipline on activities according to the safety needs of all boys. That will include having your best adult "shadow" any boy with a proclivity to light fires in all the wrong places by all the wrong means, and arranging a "drive of shame" home on the first infarction. e. you expect practical help from the committee (e.g. gas for the mom if she needs to drive her son, etc ...). If this boy is giving you that "hair on the back of the neck" kind of feeling, this is an opportunity to spare a household a world of grief (trust me, this isn't a camping-exclusive behavior), and not singling out the boy may cause this household to miss that opportunity. BTW - "positive learning experience" is a long term goal. Hopefully in a few years rumor of a few of those from your attempts so far will come back to you!

As there is no love lost between me and EDGE, I'll spare you any biased comments I may have on that part of the WB experience. Since our groups aced TGOL (partly because me and a guy from another patrol had studied game theory and quickly identified the textbook example for what it was), no complaints there. Others: not so much. Still, that wasn't divisive within patrols. Although effectively car camping, our patrols acted as such the second weekend, and later in the evening, we hiked around to other patrols seeing if anybody wanted some leftover tiramisu. Plus, with cub-moms in our patrol, my cook gear was never cleaner! The only travesty was being stuck inside on the most beautiful day of autumn watching films! I don't know about our patrol, but I was feeling pretty stormy!!!!

I get a recurring itch to take my crew back to the Sods! We have a deep affection for the place, but she doesn't always return it with warmth, still waters, and low winds. October is the next opening on our schedule, but I have one youth whose circulation won't permit her to endure long hours in the cold. So, we may be stuck waiting until late April or May. All that to say: have your boys come up with a plans B, C, and D. B and C should be alternative hike plans in case the road is closed to the insertion point for your plan A. D is what you will to do if you call the Potomac Ranger's station and they advise against traversing the Sods, period. Last time we went, we had to fall back on plan C. If you or your boys use Facebook, check the Dolly Sods group (http://www.facebook.com/groups/44192266956/ One of the pics includes my crew "prepared as usual" [i say, eyes rolling]). They have some useful links, and are pretty quick to respond to questions. They should read all of the posts thoroughly. It's a good way for your troop to get into the planning.

Advancement is like poker: make sure you're playing with a full deck. You never know when you'll have to back up the hand you lay down.