qwazse

Emb - I and my co-advisor couldn't agree with you more. And until somebody with more knots on their uni than mine comes and asks for my MCs' membership cards back we're stuck with "what should be and what is ain't always."

BD - our troop had a similar refugee problem on about 1/3 the scale of yours. Ultimately led to a spin-off of a new troop (by the folks who resented our refugees' "lack of discipline"). I've posted before about how the SM and I decided we should advertise with a big sign "Troop ___, we take bad kids." Didn't do it because the last thing we needed was boys acting more gansta than they already thought they were. Bottom line: our boys weren't hurt at all. No complaints. The spin-off is doing alright. The boys in it complain a little because they got a flood of cross-overs and were overwhelm. But they're sticking with it. If the adults get over a few hangups, it may actually last more than a couple of years. Point is, get your adults rolling -- as many trained as will allow. Then someday at a campfire or someplace where folks can sit back and brainstorm, drop the bomb: "This community doesn't need one big pack, it needs a couple more good packs. I might be looking at the best leaders those packs could ever have ..."

Two words: command respect.

BP touched on the downside: trained adult leaders. You need some folks committed to being trained in how to support a different program, yet also committed to scouting as a whole. Moreover, you'll be asking for some teamwork from the troop as well as the CO (scheduling use of the facilities, sharing leadership, coordinating with existing youth-groups, joint activities vs. separate, etc ...). If you have a couple of adults lined up for crew advisor and CC, and you can get them to Venturing Leader Specific Training (VLST), then you're halfway there. If not, you may need to let your COR know that he/she may need to be giving your adult leaders that occasional "gentle nudge" to get trained. Is VLST required? No. Most everything is in the leader's manual. But, I can say it has helped me set the program in the right direction and connect with other scouters who've been my advisors. Meanwhile, I have a committee that has passed on every opportunity to take it, and I can say it has limited their ability to serve the youth 100% effectively.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

[insert envy emoticon here] Have them figure out something to do with all those ribbons. Weave them into a doormat or lampshade or something. Boy scout "factories" could include: Klondike derby, rope-making, backpack repair, tent care, climbing gear maintenance. Those are things where you may need a little more space from floor to ceiling. You also may need some way to utilize the outside, (e.g. a drying rack for canvas or nylon tents that would make it easy to hang them for the afternoon and quickly fold at the end of the day).(This message has been edited by qwazse)

I used to blame velcro, but ... BP - Short answer: Money. If you are earning $1000+ to go to Jamboree twice in your scouting career, you are not contributing to the investment in rope and rigging your troop needs for each patrol to do a substantial project. jrush - Short answer: Money. Now my summer camp has to buy safety equipment for Scoutcraft and safety train that area as well as COPE? (That would include telling little Jimmy to not throw Indian lawn darts from the 3rd story of the tower!) It is a lot cheaper to have the little gompers build models. What I don't understand is why they can't earn Model Design and Building concurrently with Pioneering.

I like the idea of letting him join the troop but informally drop in on den meetings to keep up with his friends. (Heck, if he likes Pack meetings he can come to those too -- red epaulets included!) No need to fabricate a position to let the little gomper know he's welcome. Plus, he'll be the best advertisement a troop could have. The good news is you've got time to think about it. Even in the spring he might just spend a couple of weeks trying out the troop before committing.

Put it to you this way. The 3+ story towers we used to work on over the summer (each week of camp building the decking for the next week) are gone. None of our boys have ever seen one. Have yours?

Is he required to? No. Is he allowed to? Sure. Should he? Well, BD gave you his opinion, and to a point I agree. Do you have boys who want to be den chief, and can't? Are you boys letting the Webelos in the pack know how much fun you're having? Are you inviting the Webelos (including their den chiefs, if they are from the other troop) to a couple of your troop's activities? Are you inviting the Webelos from other packs? Sure, you can talk to your Charter Org. Rep. and let him know you think this is a problem, but unless the Pack UC is bad-mouthing your troop, he's not your worst enemy.

Only a buck? When I have blame to pass, I usually make sure it's worth a 10-spot! Yes this happens. Sometimes it is a round-about way of a leader asking for help managing his boys. Best response: "So, can I count on your boys helping to usher for the Spring camporee? Now that they understand what can happen, they might be ideal to guide other boys away from the adverse situation, and as you can tell, we need all the help we can get!"

I've used fuzz sticks. Sometimes I just can't seem to find dry tinder, but there is plenty of kindling that could quickly be whittled down to size. I've also fuzzled logs like jblake describes. I try to make neither a routine. There's more adventure in walking around your site to see what kindling God has left for you to try. When I'm willing to cover about 400 yards I usually can find everything I need. Never tried beating a stick with a rock. I'll have to add that to my repertoire.

The best argument you could make is that there are youth in your community who want to be served by a program like this. Our community had girls (sisters/friends of scouts) who wanted to go to Seabase. We had young men who were aging out of the troop but wanted to go to Philmont again. Both groups of youth wanted to also provide leadership to girl scouts and boy scouts in their community. Finally, young men and women were arranging unsupervised camp-outs together with or without the COR's intervention. Wouldn't it be nice if they had a pool of trained chaperons who could make these events of the highest caliber? Now, our COR had implicit trust in any decision our troop committee made. So, this was an easy sell. But you get the idea. If you can say, "I have a half-dozen young men/women who have been asking for ___, and our troop can't provide that." You have cause for a program. It doesn't have to be an official distinction, for example, some boys may want to be expert kayakers, but that is nowhere on the troop's radar because the majority have wanted to focus on hiking and camping (noble activities indeed), being part of a Venturing crew may make it clear that they need distinct leadership and material resources to build their program.

Yep I wouldn't count it either. Part of that "be prepared" thing is making sure there are enough maps for each contingent. As long as they are having fun and want to try again soon, you've redeemed a bad situation! Do encourage him and the boys to keep planning. Every now and then I tell my boys about my "what I would do differently" file. Basically after a hike, I'll file the map away with a note page that has comments like "pick trail that crosses fewer streams", or "rocks and bogs!" or "bring GPS", or "bring extra map!" Since they are working on their requirements, they may want to simply consider putting a sticky note on the relevant page. Regardless, those comments are fun to read when you start on your next hike, and sometimes they actually help you avoid repeating the same mistake!

Sorry I didn't look closely at the website. Guess I'm a "by the book" kind of guy! I'm glad the boy's got a plan. I generally expect the 5 mile hike to be one that requires map and compass. Parkland with cris-crossing trails (some unmarked) is the best. If it's one the older boys are used to, we either send them on an alternate hike, or train them to hang back and let the newbies do the navigating.

I use knots-only for my field uniform. I reserve medals for the rare suit-and-tie occasion. It's for convenience mostly. I find medal's and pins hard to keep track of. Knots are light and out-of-the-way.

BD - I've gotten myself quite thoroughly lost on forest roads. (Fortunately, as I explain to my boys, I got myself found just as often, and that's all that matters.) So don't judge 5yr's plan by the lowest common denominator. Making the boy wait does nothing toward helping him learn to navigate his patrol on a hike. It is your suggestion that violates the explicit intent of the requirement. You are the one wanting to manipulate the rules. And to what end? Teaching that the handbook is untrustworthy and his SM can fabricate rules as he goes along? ("Forget that reference, boy. We use EDGE, and that means I'm gonna explain what is really meant here.") On the other hand, letting him work out the hike plan with his patrol, find a drivable route to each trail crossing, meet up with his guys and talk about obstacles that were and were not on the map, get his bearings, get a feel for how long it takes a few boys (as opposed to seasoned hunters) to traverse different terrain, etc ... All of that prepares the boy to be the best patrol leader he can be. That way his boys can count on him for that spring hike in the backcountry.

We have a kid with Asbergers (similar to Skip's). I also had an autistic kid in Sunday School class -- it's a miracle the young man (now in his 20s) can stand our rather noisy church. Yes, everyone has to adjust. But, you all have a right to expect good behavior. By now you understand that by definition, the disorder amplifies everything -- literally. Where your brain circuits will actually dampen the nerves that fire in response to any stimulus that comes along, an autistic kid's brain just keeps 'em cranking. So, "overreaction" is par for the course. You also have to explain to Smith that we need to help other kids. Sometimes that means putting up with SM's having to repeat themselves. Compliment him on getting the message the first time. Tell him that at meetings he can expect to hear it repeated because other kids brains aren't working as efficiently as his. (They need to have a stimulus a couple of times to bump the important parts of messages into long term memory.) Explain to Smith that we need to work with everyone's brains -- not just his, and part of courteous is learning to respect that. If he understands that his fellow scouts' brains need "special treatment" too, it might help him get less irritated the next time. On the bright side, Smith might be helping the SM realize when he's getting a little long-winded! Is it easy? No! Can it be rewarding for adults and boys? Yes!

Nothing that can keep you from doing it. Failure depends on your metric: If success to you means always having at least 6 from a patrol on any outing, then obviously 12 minimizes the risk of that kind of failure. If success means your PL can relay a message to every boy in his patrol within 1/2 hour, then 12 increases the risk of that kind of failure. Think of it this way: 12-24 is size of our venturing crew, and my officers are hard-put to keep their fellow youth engaged in the program. Sixteen year-olds have lots of communication tools at their disposal, but they have barely learned to communicate. If managing 12 is a big task for a 16 year old, it probably is more than a 11-14 year old can handle. (Remember, the 12-14 year old has video games to play, etc ...)

I agree with BP. Adults will make a difference, so lean on your committee members. You may have to do that resource survey all over again. I personally am having a rough time with my new crew officers (elected 7 months ago). They're good kids, but haven't gotten their heads around the fact that they need training and help. Above all, they need to make each other a priority. If I were to do things differently this year, I would have called each of the officer's parents and let them know how grateful I am that their son/daughter stepped forward, and they should be proud that their child has the potential to impact a lot of other youth. What I did do ... Visit your VOA, your pres/and vp admin should come with you. If they aren't available, get a delegate or two from your crew to go. If you don't have a VOA, hunt down your nearest neighboring crews and organize a joint activity. Schedule ILSC (used to be VLSC) retreat weekend as soon as possible. Have your returning officer conduct it with a co-leader of her choosing. Do something fun once the course is completed. Has it worked? Too early to tell. My officers at least know other crew officers when they see them. Two of them taught an ILSC for the VOA, but only members from outside our council attended! So for our new officers, they are stuck learning by the school of hard knocks. I'd say I still have an uphill climb. So, readers, if you have anything to add. It won't just help Scouterabouter. P.S. S.abouter -- another thread about your recruiting strategy, please? I want to know what worked and how much time each took to implement.

Sounds like a great idea. To ramp it up (make it more fun, not more strenuous, for the boy) ... Pre-arrange a "dead-drop" at some point (maybe two miles into the hike). Have him find a good spot slightly off the trail for a snack, bear-bag the snack, and mark the location (the "drop zone") on the on a copy of the map. (If your hikers are Jr. Military types, you could put the lat/long in code or puzzle.) Hussle back and put the map in the dead-drop. Include a note indicating that the "enemy" is closing in on the drop, and if they do not arrive at the primary zone by __:__ hours, the package will be intercepted. If the boy's as good as you say he is, he should have time to arrange a "secondary drop," ride back and intercept the package, and leave a note with coords and a time frame to reach the new location. Or, you can simply have him bet on how long it will take his patrol to cover a section of trail. Difference in time could determine snack distribution. Anyway, you get the picture. Make it fun. It may cost you a little more fuel, but it will keep the boy engaged in the hike and have him thinking through the map regarding what the boys may be up against.

Two words: adult volunteers. Just like my three word answer for why there aren't more venturing crews: female adult leaders. There is a difference between "pretty inexpensively" and "inexpensively". And that difference boils down to time away from that second job everyone takes on to make ends meet. For example, let's try an experiment based on TT's comment: My older son has expressed an interest in Sea Scouts but frankly I wouldn't know where to look... OK TT. How about the mirror?

I thin nolesrule nailed the true intent of the requirement. Finding a level route for the boy to ambulate under his own power would not give him the experience he needs as a PL to qualify to take his patrol hiking and camping. Having him determine the route that keeps your car's engine (or your heart) from seizing after a morning of geocaching over hill and dale, is more in line with the spirit of the requirements. As to how important it is to push the boy in getting this requirement done (besides doing what the doctor says), 5yr, you might want to consider your program over the next six months. If your troop is going to be planning a lot of trips and you're having the boys mapping out routes, it's more important that he gets real-world experience navigating, and maybe your boy should swallow his pride and do the "footnote requirement"! School of hard knocks has taught me the more trained eyes (even young ones) on a problem like hike/float plans, the more likely you are to find the right solution with minimum delay. So in my calculus, items with zero weight: - Expediting the trail to Eagle. - A bogus need to balance positions of responsibility. - Unwritten permanent vs. long term disability stipulations. Items that hold weight (in increasing order): - The boy's enthusiasm vs. his pride. - How other troops in your council have handled it. - The doctors' recommendation. - The skills needed in the near term for successful program. (To steal a quote from jblake, what will this young PL need to "take care of his boys?")

SP, we are just starting this strategy this year because all of the Webelos from our sister pack crossed over to a spin-off troop. A couple of our committee have taken this up on their own and have developed a presentation that focuses on our troop's activities. The two private schools in our area (one Catholic and one Protestant) have also benefited from Eagle projects of scouts in our troop, so there is a lot of goodwill there. About half of our boys (including mine) go to the local public school, which has a strong academic reputation. The youth-groups (both protestant, but pretty non-denominational) are ones some of our boys attend anyway. We also got the list of packs from our DE so we can make sure that the ones not partnered with a troop get an invite from us to any Webelos open-houses we may hold. This is a very small slice of our district, and we are focusing on the groups that are geographically closest to our CO than any other troop. We also are not worrying about stepping on the spin-off troop's toes. If some school gets two presentations from different troops, that's a good thing.

You'd have Venturing. Trust me, the grass ain't any greener. At least it ain't any browner.

Which reminds me, you forgot ... #7) Celibacy. Okay. I'll shut up!