qwazse

Sorry I didn't look closely at the website. Guess I'm a "by the book" kind of guy! I'm glad the boy's got a plan. I generally expect the 5 mile hike to be one that requires map and compass. Parkland with cris-crossing trails (some unmarked) is the best. If it's one the older boys are used to, we either send them on an alternate hike, or train them to hang back and let the newbies do the navigating.

I use knots-only for my field uniform. I reserve medals for the rare suit-and-tie occasion. It's for convenience mostly. I find medal's and pins hard to keep track of. Knots are light and out-of-the-way.

BD - I've gotten myself quite thoroughly lost on forest roads. (Fortunately, as I explain to my boys, I got myself found just as often, and that's all that matters.) So don't judge 5yr's plan by the lowest common denominator. Making the boy wait does nothing toward helping him learn to navigate his patrol on a hike. It is your suggestion that violates the explicit intent of the requirement. You are the one wanting to manipulate the rules. And to what end? Teaching that the handbook is untrustworthy and his SM can fabricate rules as he goes along? ("Forget that reference, boy. We use EDGE, and that means I'm gonna explain what is really meant here.") On the other hand, letting him work out the hike plan with his patrol, find a drivable route to each trail crossing, meet up with his guys and talk about obstacles that were and were not on the map, get his bearings, get a feel for how long it takes a few boys (as opposed to seasoned hunters) to traverse different terrain, etc ... All of that prepares the boy to be the best patrol leader he can be. That way his boys can count on him for that spring hike in the backcountry.

We have a kid with Asbergers (similar to Skip's). I also had an autistic kid in Sunday School class -- it's a miracle the young man (now in his 20s) can stand our rather noisy church. Yes, everyone has to adjust. But, you all have a right to expect good behavior. By now you understand that by definition, the disorder amplifies everything -- literally. Where your brain circuits will actually dampen the nerves that fire in response to any stimulus that comes along, an autistic kid's brain just keeps 'em cranking. So, "overreaction" is par for the course. You also have to explain to Smith that we need to help other kids. Sometimes that means putting up with SM's having to repeat themselves. Compliment him on getting the message the first time. Tell him that at meetings he can expect to hear it repeated because other kids brains aren't working as efficiently as his. (They need to have a stimulus a couple of times to bump the important parts of messages into long term memory.) Explain to Smith that we need to work with everyone's brains -- not just his, and part of courteous is learning to respect that. If he understands that his fellow scouts' brains need "special treatment" too, it might help him get less irritated the next time. On the bright side, Smith might be helping the SM realize when he's getting a little long-winded! Is it easy? No! Can it be rewarding for adults and boys? Yes!

Nothing that can keep you from doing it. Failure depends on your metric: If success to you means always having at least 6 from a patrol on any outing, then obviously 12 minimizes the risk of that kind of failure. If success means your PL can relay a message to every boy in his patrol within 1/2 hour, then 12 increases the risk of that kind of failure. Think of it this way: 12-24 is size of our venturing crew, and my officers are hard-put to keep their fellow youth engaged in the program. Sixteen year-olds have lots of communication tools at their disposal, but they have barely learned to communicate. If managing 12 is a big task for a 16 year old, it probably is more than a 11-14 year old can handle. (Remember, the 12-14 year old has video games to play, etc ...)

I agree with BP. Adults will make a difference, so lean on your committee members. You may have to do that resource survey all over again. I personally am having a rough time with my new crew officers (elected 7 months ago). They're good kids, but haven't gotten their heads around the fact that they need training and help. Above all, they need to make each other a priority. If I were to do things differently this year, I would have called each of the officer's parents and let them know how grateful I am that their son/daughter stepped forward, and they should be proud that their child has the potential to impact a lot of other youth. What I did do ... Visit your VOA, your pres/and vp admin should come with you. If they aren't available, get a delegate or two from your crew to go. If you don't have a VOA, hunt down your nearest neighboring crews and organize a joint activity. Schedule ILSC (used to be VLSC) retreat weekend as soon as possible. Have your returning officer conduct it with a co-leader of her choosing. Do something fun once the course is completed. Has it worked? Too early to tell. My officers at least know other crew officers when they see them. Two of them taught an ILSC for the VOA, but only members from outside our council attended! So for our new officers, they are stuck learning by the school of hard knocks. I'd say I still have an uphill climb. So, readers, if you have anything to add. It won't just help Scouterabouter. P.S. S.abouter -- another thread about your recruiting strategy, please? I want to know what worked and how much time each took to implement.

Sounds like a great idea. To ramp it up (make it more fun, not more strenuous, for the boy) ... Pre-arrange a "dead-drop" at some point (maybe two miles into the hike). Have him find a good spot slightly off the trail for a snack, bear-bag the snack, and mark the location (the "drop zone") on the on a copy of the map. (If your hikers are Jr. Military types, you could put the lat/long in code or puzzle.) Hussle back and put the map in the dead-drop. Include a note indicating that the "enemy" is closing in on the drop, and if they do not arrive at the primary zone by __:__ hours, the package will be intercepted. If the boy's as good as you say he is, he should have time to arrange a "secondary drop," ride back and intercept the package, and leave a note with coords and a time frame to reach the new location. Or, you can simply have him bet on how long it will take his patrol to cover a section of trail. Difference in time could determine snack distribution. Anyway, you get the picture. Make it fun. It may cost you a little more fuel, but it will keep the boy engaged in the hike and have him thinking through the map regarding what the boys may be up against.

Two words: adult volunteers. Just like my three word answer for why there aren't more venturing crews: female adult leaders. There is a difference between "pretty inexpensively" and "inexpensively". And that difference boils down to time away from that second job everyone takes on to make ends meet. For example, let's try an experiment based on TT's comment: My older son has expressed an interest in Sea Scouts but frankly I wouldn't know where to look... OK TT. How about the mirror?

I thin nolesrule nailed the true intent of the requirement. Finding a level route for the boy to ambulate under his own power would not give him the experience he needs as a PL to qualify to take his patrol hiking and camping. Having him determine the route that keeps your car's engine (or your heart) from seizing after a morning of geocaching over hill and dale, is more in line with the spirit of the requirements. As to how important it is to push the boy in getting this requirement done (besides doing what the doctor says), 5yr, you might want to consider your program over the next six months. If your troop is going to be planning a lot of trips and you're having the boys mapping out routes, it's more important that he gets real-world experience navigating, and maybe your boy should swallow his pride and do the "footnote requirement"! School of hard knocks has taught me the more trained eyes (even young ones) on a problem like hike/float plans, the more likely you are to find the right solution with minimum delay. So in my calculus, items with zero weight: - Expediting the trail to Eagle. - A bogus need to balance positions of responsibility. - Unwritten permanent vs. long term disability stipulations. Items that hold weight (in increasing order): - The boy's enthusiasm vs. his pride. - How other troops in your council have handled it. - The doctors' recommendation. - The skills needed in the near term for successful program. (To steal a quote from jblake, what will this young PL need to "take care of his boys?")

SP, we are just starting this strategy this year because all of the Webelos from our sister pack crossed over to a spin-off troop. A couple of our committee have taken this up on their own and have developed a presentation that focuses on our troop's activities. The two private schools in our area (one Catholic and one Protestant) have also benefited from Eagle projects of scouts in our troop, so there is a lot of goodwill there. About half of our boys (including mine) go to the local public school, which has a strong academic reputation. The youth-groups (both protestant, but pretty non-denominational) are ones some of our boys attend anyway. We also got the list of packs from our DE so we can make sure that the ones not partnered with a troop get an invite from us to any Webelos open-houses we may hold. This is a very small slice of our district, and we are focusing on the groups that are geographically closest to our CO than any other troop. We also are not worrying about stepping on the spin-off troop's toes. If some school gets two presentations from different troops, that's a good thing.

You'd have Venturing. Trust me, the grass ain't any greener. At least it ain't any browner.

Which reminds me, you forgot ... #7) Celibacy. Okay. I'll shut up!

Please don't limit it to #5. I can barely keep up with the one spouse I got!

What I did for one boy with a permanent disability was circle the locations of a half-dozen geocaches on a map and went with him and his dad to find them using map and compass. Dad drove, he was the navigator, I was along for the ride (and to calibrate my new GPS). He figured out where to park, and walked us (as best he could) to the spot on the map where the cache was. In the process we measured some distances and heights of things. Alternate requirements do not require council approval, and you may interpret them to the letter. So if "permanent" is not stated, you are not obligated to require it. That's not circumvention, that's following. All those who disagree can appeal to national to change the wording in the next revision. I would still talk to the DAC about what has been done in your council because you don't want to make a decision for the boy and then at his next district event he meets a bunch of boys-in-casts who were treated differently. And if the boy feels like it would be circumvention, don't do it! His opinion is worth dozens of ours! Who cares if he's PL for 5 months and it doesn't count for rank advancement? Does he have all his shooting sports MB's? This could be the right time to perfect those skills. P.S. - You are going to sign our usernames on his cast for us, right?

Personally, I haven't met a kid who remember the beads, so less fuss more fun is the way to go. I'd suggest a short song at the den meeting, but folks might call that hazing.

This really becomes a conversation between you, the boy, and his parents. Even if this is a kid who will probably be hiking anyway in January, talk to your district advancement chair about applying alternate requirements now because of his temporary situation. Regadless of what the DAC says, what you want is to be able to tell the boy, "This is what other boys around the council in your situation have done ..." Out of respect for boys with permanent disabilities the kid might decide, "I want to do the req's for real. I'll wait. In the meantime, can you give me a blue card for First Aid MB?" Or, if he knows that other boys in his shoes (cast) have been given the appropriate waivers, he might decide, "Let me do the alternate requirement. You know I'll go hiking with my patrol in the spring." If you think he's ready to hold a position of responsibility, let him know that. Even if it won't count for rank advancement, the awareness that he can still be an important part of the troop might cheer him up. If he is an FC scout at heart, then this will be a good lesson on how he can take is rank advancement into his own hands.

Our troop is changing it's recruiting stragegy from focusing on the one middle school, to visiting several private schools and youth groups in a 3 mile radius. We actually have boys from school districts 10 miles away. But we don't recruit from there. They just like our program. I really would like to see the adults from that area pull together a program, but I'm afraid they don't esteem themselves highly enough.

Good 'nuff for government work. Keep in mind the further north, the closer the longitude lines will be. That "wee extra" can amount several seconds. Usually not a problem for orienteering courses. For some geocaches, 40 feet off can yield a "did not find". For settling land disputes or staying out of Iran, it won't hold up in court. If you need to ensure that level of precision, there are plastic orienteering templates for various scales (including 1:2400) that include a degree longitude conversion symbol (it look's sort of like a curved funnel) for every degree lattitude. First place I'd look for them is an military surplus store. Lacking a template, my approach: with a yard/meter stick or tape measure, I would take the measurment from the edge (the one with the lowest longitude) of the map to my PoI, divide it by the measurment between the map edges at that lattitude, multiply by 7.5', and add the product to the lowest longitude on the map. Repeat for lattitude. What's nice about this method, is it works well if you are using a scaled down map that you downloaded from USGS.gov. And, it doesn't matter what measurment system your stick has marked on it (as long as the ticks are evenly spaced!). Needless to say, the finer your stick, the more accurate you will be. Obviously, because keeping things "square" can be a hassle, you can grid things out at the 2.5' hashes, I just don't like marking maps. I do write my calculations in the margin. This includes a couple of ticks representing my estimated error of measurement. (E.g. 1/8 inch, 1/16th inch, 1 millimeter.) It's really handy to know how far off you can be, when you hit that mark with the GPS. P.S. (from the school of hard knocks) - Once you write your calcs, have your buddy check them for errors!(This message has been edited by qwazse)

I have to sleep tonight, so there is NO WAY I'm following that link. Besides, when it comes to losers-of-bets-to-scouts these old eyes have seen too much ... But from the bottom of my heart on behalf of those boys: THANK YOU. There's one more pack who knows their CM loves them.

I have a boy with asbergers too (my son's best friend). And your right, my son would not make him sing for his stuff -- alone. But my son watches him like a hawk at camp and makes sure he tidies up. The boy has wanted to quit several times, and every time he as emphasized that it wasn't the other boys. It was primarily the bugs. He admitted he didn't like work. We told him that we weren't going to compensate for that. And sometimes he was very bitter about actions of other boys, yet he would find it in his heart to forgive them. But those bugs really annoyed him. He left summer camp mid-week, but unlike most homesick boys he was proud he made it that far and can't wait for the scouting year to start again. He's looking forward to those winter campouts! So I don't think it's "no big deal." But I'm not going to minimize the importance of picking up after yourself just because this one boy will require his buddies to step up and sing with him.

What changed with the Imperial slave trade was Wilberforce read his Bible and did what it said. Where not some scribes meticulously transcribing their people's encounter over centuries with what seems to have been a very external yet unnervingly personal force, we may very well have been importing servants from our vanquished enemies today. Our sons would then bring their children to scout meetings to sing for unclaimed equipment! (There would probably be paperwork to file if an SM made the son of a slave owner sing for his pen-knife.) Now was Wilberforce responding to the morality of humans, or of God? His writings tell us what *he* thought, yet you are more than welcome to come up with more material causes. Regardless, that many men attribute their strength to do great things (somehow in opposition to the madness around them) to the work of The Spirit, that in itself is a cause for reverence. I guess that means I'm siding with the Rabbi on that one.

Scoutfish, those medal slides and cubs just don't mix. Have your cubs make their own slides ASPAP! (Each den could have a contest.) The easiest one in my opinion is a simple Turk's head out of leather thong. Grips, lightweight, can be made distinctive with beads and such, and cheaply replaced. Just sayin' there's nothin' in the book requiring the metal slide. And if someone tells you there is you have a right to take their uniform police card and cut it in two. Fun for every one.

OGE's hurt from the snipe hunt was not just about the deception. There was abandonment as well. And the next time the same kid pulled a simpler stunt, that abandonment comes into the equation. He couldn't get past that to see his an opportunity to meet boys from all the other units at camp. How does the "humiliation" of singing help a boy become a better scout? Well, he gets an opportunity to share in the humiliation the leaders feel when they have a site with stuff littered around. He might for the first time in his life begin to understand how bad it may make mom feel to have to clean up after everyone with no thanks from anyone. And he is spared the humility of me dumping my stuff on his front yard and him having to pick it up.

BP, I don't thinks it's always groups. I think some well-meaning individuals who find solace in a certain form of piety will raise concerns. Some of them, you could almost figure out their favorite radio show, but others just call things at face value and don't realize that snap judgements are often the wrong ones. Usually if you point out that ceremonies were chosen in a way not to offend Native Americans (e.g. they avoid calling on gods an actor might not believe in) they can meet you halfway. That means inviting them to observe how things are done and explaining why things are the way they are.

There's one more kind of wild, and if you have youth (or adults) with issues around partying, etc ... you will want to think long and hard about Seabase, look over their website, and call them about the options you're interested in. There are plenty of resorts, etc ..., and your time ashore depends on the adventure you choose. This is very true in the Bahamas, where each day scouts are welcome to use local facilities on each island. At one stop, my wife was amused when, while the bartender was pouring ice in my nalgene, a lady beside me turned and asked "How much do you want to forget?" (It was clear she was trying hard to forget something.) The locals know what's expected of scouts. There's no law saying they can't serve them alcohol, but it will be on the radio that evening, and as soon as captain hear's about it, you can bet you'll be off your boat on the next flight home. Our contingent was very respectful and disciplined. (We all know how useful that is.) But obviously, with some kids you may want to select a more isolated adventure!