qwazse

I've observed the same with my crew, although it shifts back and forth. Sometimes the boys can come in, look at a list of potential activities and say "We gotta do X, Y, and Z, and that's it!" They spell it out, everyone buys in. Girl scouts are really good organizers. 'Nuff said. M2C - you don't have to be in an old boy's club to be anti-feminist. So if the shoe fits ... we promise not to throw it at you! The co-ed thing, it works really well for high-school age kids. It takes a lot of work for middle-school kids, but don't worry. I've seen from youth groups who camp: if it's a group of girls whom the boys have grown to trust, the goofy will out! That said, we're all comfortable with segregating the middle-school scouts so as long as we keep challenging GS to put out a strong outdoor program, things can stay the way they are. The parents who are frustrated with the status quo often tend to have daughters for whom GS is a poor fit. I have not met any parents of boys who wish they could have a program more like GS for their son.

I think if the boy is helping his patrol pick the terrain in advance of the hike and plays an active role in calculating distance identifying way points and guiding where he can, you've met the requirements. If the doctor says "5 miles? No way!" respect that. Regarding the difficulty with respect to Orienteering ... this is where we put the cart before the horse. Orienteering MB is not Eagle required and is about the sport of orienteering, which may or may not be more difficult than the orienteering required for navigation. The way I read the T2FC requirement is that the scout should qualify to take his boys hiking and camping. Now, you'd like to think that a boy who could earn Orienteering MB would be able to do that. But, suppose he's one tough nut with lots of skills climbing/bouldering, so he tackles his cross country course with lots of climbing and sheer grit and some luck with dead reckoning. He gets the MB. Now even if the course is long enough for the First Class requirement (8k instead of 3k) it doesn't mean that the boy has the good sense to put together a safe hike for his buddies. An example of someone who met the first class requirement: a boy came up to us last night and said "I have copies of the map of this weekend's hike -- one that includes topographic lines. Should I bring them?" Um, yeah. Will you lead the hike for us? Bottom line: if he's shown a skill level that you could trust him to take his boys on a hike in your area, he's earned the requirement. If not, don't pass him just because someone signed his Orienteering MB blue card.

My poor wife has called me on several occasions before calling 911 and had to endure me curtly telling her, 'Then what are you talking to me for?' Fortunately, nothing came of it, and we have had lots of years together correcting other bad habits! Thank for the reminder.

vb, In general, always give the boy an objective when you withhold something. For example, "I'd like to see you go a month without hitting a fellow scout before giving you a blue card. Let's set a date to meet next month and review if you're ready for me to give you a counselor's phone number." Or, "I'd like to see you come back with a completed blue card in [name that MB] before I sign the next one. Can you do that in a week or two?" MBC's are precious commodities, and depending on the topic, they may not countenance an undisciplined scout. Other counselors may be perfect for the boy, but you should give them a "head's up". So, you tell the boy "I have a counselor in mind for you, but let me give him a call to see if he's still available. Can you come back to me next week?" Most of the time you'd give the boy an MBC's contact info up front, but if a boy is already spread thin with lots of badges to work on, you may want to talk to the MBC first to get his/her opinion on the matter. It's all about getting everyone on the same page like JK said.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

JK, The distance *walked* is not the point. The point is to be qualified to navigate one's patrol in the terrain they typically encounter where they hike and camp. A five mile hike is merely one of the most entertaining ways (from a scout's perspective) to do that. If you "dumb down" the requirement to one of mere physical stamina, you put a patrol at risk of not being able to execute a reasonable hike plan once this boy is fit to move over hill and dale! Whatever you do, folks, do not compromise the integrity of this requirement just so the boy can walk instead of ride!!!! Who knows? It may be your life that depends on that boy being able to navigate his way to the ranger's station! It's odd how 5yr's scout gets that he has not yet been adequately challenged to meet this requirement, while some of you are struggling with that. I bet when they finally make this a tough enough mental challenge without shortchanging the doctor's orders, he'll let 5yr know.

I think the weekly pack meeting would only be sustainable with small numbers. For me the tough thing about pack meetings is the decibel level. It took me about a month to recover from the "shell shock" of each pack meeting! (I now hold CM's and elementary school teachers in very high esteem.)

BTW, E732, I am getting the "I don't like" talk from my crew officers. They don't realize that language like that comes off as "I'm not going to help you put together the program you may enjoy." I chalk part of it to outright selfishness. Part of their motivation for joining a crew was to get away from the littlun's (i.e. younger scouts). Now that they're bigger biggun's, someone needs to do program, that someone is them, and there's nowhere to hide. Part of it is burn-out. Expenses have increased and earning potential has not, so they need to work harder to afford their adventures and support their families. (If they were in the "bad kid" category, the "no free lunch" reality has hit them hard.) My best officer material pull double shifts (be it at work or college or boot camp) to make ends meet. That leaves little time for venturing.

I'll admit. The projector for the playoff game was more a luxury for me and the SM who had committed to this weekend when play-off hopes were thin. The boys' memories of that weekend involve sledding, snow-men, campfire, and who left their boots outside of their tent while it snowed overnight. Keep up the good work.

"You get out what you put into it." That's my line to the boys. We have some pretty bad kids who are actually great scouts. Why? They commit to meetings (about an hour a week). They fit camping in their schedule (30 hours a month). They show up at service projects (8 hours a month). They fund-raise (4 hours a month). Then they should do a little work on advancement (1 hour/week, averaged over their career), plan outings (1-2 hours month). On top of it they are the privileged few who get SM's "special" attention (1 hour/month issue specific conferences!). Really, it's amazing that they want to put any time into this program at all! But keep in mind that kids this age are just beginning to load up their schedule, and most of them would not understand a time commitment if you gave it to them. Time involvement is a quantity that may help parents more than boys.

Movie? No way. Scouting is outing! Steelers/Raven's play-off game projected on a the wall of a dining fly during a winter camp-out? Well, in these parts that almost counts as being reverent! Really, the best part (besides the outcome of the game) was explaining to an internetTV-age scout how an antenna worked!

I find my Swiss Army knives get that way over time. Cleaning the hinges with a little sewing machine oil or WD-40 and q-tip sometimes helps. I've recovered "buried" knives (from previous homeowner?) while mowing lawn. A day's soak in baking soda and another day in white vinegar sometimes helps.

Our crew had one and I didn't know about it. (It amounted to a couple of $, but came in handy when registration got overcharged, and they needed to refund us.) They are that common around here. For once you're not crazy. (Well, no more than the rest of us.)

fa, I reread your question and the way you phrase it, it sounds like the crew is tightly related to the troop. They probably have the same unit #s (like mine) and the advisor and SM might be the same person (unlike mine). Point is, what I might express may have no relation to your two units. There is no one-size-fits all. Probably the first thing that you could do to make it sound like you are more of an expert in Venturing than what you are is get to know the adults and find out how they are leading things ... Are they two units who want to act a little more in unison? Are they effectively one unit who could stand to diversify a little? Are they fine with how they are organized? Where do the youth want to go, and do the leaders feel they can get them there? How engaged is the CO in the scouting program? You don't need hours of training to begin figuring these things out. Just keep in mind that there are no hard-and-fast rules as to how tightly or loosely troop and crew should operate under the same roof. As you learn the lay of the land, you will get an idea if you need to touch base with two fairly independent leaders on different occasions, or if you can sit them at the same table at the same time.

fireeagle29, [based on everything that I as an advisor did not get from my UC over the past five years ...] Ditto UCE. You might want to call the advisor, admit that you're new to this crew thing and would like to help by learning. Let him know your taking the training and ask him or any of his adults to join you if they haven't taken it. After that, a phone call every few months would be nice.

I knew one boy who submitted a recommendation from his sister. Can't remember if it fulfilled any particular category, but it was a rather nice letter. If you think everyone is being sincere (i.e., the letters collected seem to give the Board of Review and objective perspective of the boy), and you still have references from three other people, I'd take things at face value and move forward. If the boy can get a letter from someone else like Shortridge suggests, that's gravy.

MT - I have heard similar frustration among trainers in my district. Heck my youth felt it because two of them held a council-wide ILSC course and only three students showed up -- from a neighboring council! The harsh reality is that for most of us time is a rare commodity, and location isn't. So, I think districts should shamelessly promote courses council/area wide because a training day may work for only 5 people in a district, but but might work for 2 people in each of 10 neighboring districts. If this is the case for 3 or 4 training days throughout your region you'll get a lot of people trained. The problem then becomes how do you herd people to these various training opportunities without them getting so many announcements they ignore them all and miss out on then one day that they *could* attend?

Troop Meetings: 60 minutes. We give a little grace to go over from time to time if an activity is interesting or if there are a lot of BOR's. Crew meetings: 30 minutes. With the officers doing a lot of the heavy lifting developing program between meetings. Activities/training aren't considered meetings. For what it's worth, fall sports seem to be the most challenging time for our HS kids, so crew meetings don't really start up until the end of October and we roll through the summer. The troop on the other hand only meets when school is in session and not in the summer. (Again, shake downs or preparation for summer activities are not considered meetings.)

I'm tall too. Most packs can be extended to fit most human frames. I use a Kelty Trekker. What you want to avoid is getting a pack that is so large you get tempted to fill it! Even if you don't fill it, those extra cubic feet lead to more weight away from your back (once the gear settles) and more torque on your spine. End result, 40 pounds in a large pack drags more than 40 pounds in a smaller pack! Take at lest one hike a month with full gear, and you'll be able to make your mind up about what configuration suits you. Plus, you'll get some quality time with your daughter!

So, let's work on that "payment in kind" theme. Suppose (instead of individual accounts) a unit takes a poll of what youth would like to purchase, purchases gear in the desired proportions, and loans out gear to a member contingent upon him/her having participated in unit fundraisers at some agreed-upon level. (The thinking here is that one is more likely to be a better steward if there is some "sweat equity" in the equipment.) Is the value of the gear (depreciated by the time it is in the scout's possession) taxable? After all, to take Beav's argument to the extreme, the troop maintaining its own cache of tents/backpacks/helmets/ropes/dogsleds etc ... is depriving some outfitter somewhere of potential rental income.

... beyond the legality issues..why do we keep trying to justify it? Because there is something that sounds right about individual responsibility. That is, if you, Jack scout, raise funds for this organization, then you, Jack scout, has the right to allocate some of those funds for the needs of the organization. Note that our units' cultures are such that equipment, gear, uniforms, etc ... get handed down to new members of our units. If that did not happen, I assure you, many venturers in our community would never try backpacking. The up-front expense would be too much for a firs-timer. In fact, a scout that shows up prepared for a trip, (gear ready, properly uniformed, fees paid) provides an essential service to our community. Will that scout be able to write off his expenses (gear, uniforms, and fees) if his fund-raising is treated as income?

Also, personal management. Nothing directly related to the course, but if the boys are starting to earn income, learning to track it is a good thing. Along those lines, family life may be good to take at this time. Those two are ones boys put off until last. But I've seen it really hinder a boy (not just in making Eagle, but in enabling him to handle important issues -- high adventures, car maintenance, girlfriend -- in those teenage years). The content in the MB Pamphlet might not be new to him, but getting to know a couple more caring adults who he can talk to can make a huge difference.

Way to go TT. Bring in a USMC "heavy" to use the F word (the really nasty three letter one) on those dissenters! F.Y.I. - my young Venturing females have the same problem. I mean, they don't have "the problem", they just act like they do. It's a shame.

My daughter took the course. It's a little redundant (first aid and emergency preparedness), but also has helpful hints that boys may neglect (e.g., bring toys/videos, clean the kitchen once the kids are asleep, etc ...). After the course, your son should look over his first class requirements and see if there is anything he can demonstrate to the patrol leader. I think a first-aid merit badge counselor is going to want to see him demonstrate all the required skills. But, if your son tells him/her he has some red cross certification, he might be allowed to skip some reading/instruction and go straight to testing.

I have accumulated a variety of aluminum kits (and cast-iron ware) over the years (including utensils from garage sales), and I mix-and-match to suit my needs. Thus, mesh bags are a must. My son stole my aluminum cup (which I had "procured" from my brother many years ago). So I "procured" a wire-handled bowl/cup from the scout shack hand-me-downs. Most backpacking trips I take the bowl/cup, a spoon, and my pen-knife. (My espresso pot counts as a luxury item, not part of the mess kit.) Since I have a mesh bag, I prefer the kits that don't require nuts and bolts to attach handles (snags). I throw in a pot-holder and some lightweight tongs to grip stuff. The "outer layer" of my "complete" personal kit is a 2 quart pot and a teflon coated pan. And has a nice 1 quart pot on the inside. I used it since I was an older scout. It worked really well with my patrol b/c with a little wire, we would rig a double broiler and make chocolate fondue. Not something easily done with a scout mess kit. But, for your money, if BD is offering you a freebee, give him a call.

E92 - Yes. And sometimes we adults will present our packs to the youth so that they can see different styles/priorities. The problem with venturing age kids is the attendance and communication issue. In their mind a backpacking trip is a one-time event where, in reality it is a multi-weekend preparation program. I have one young lady who missed the training weekends, had her friends get her "up to speed", then was miserable on the back-country weekend. (Her mom loved it, BTW!) She swears she will never backpack again. le Voy - Do you encourage the youth in your unit to head out as minimally as you do?