qwazse

jb, Your model really resonates with me because that's about where I saw my kids want to interact with their world. Thanks to college and military hauling away most of my 18+ y.o.s (and one 17 y.o. who got early admission) that's about all I have to work with. I wish the T2FC were accessible to Jr. High Girls. It would make the venturing program so much easier.

BD: choosing a focus or interest. I am not going to interject my desires or thoughts on what they should pick, but we got a list of possibilities from nationals site and offer that for suggestions. Well, we hike and avoid cabins. So I guess that categorizes us as general interest outdoor crew. But, the only reason is because that's the path of least resistance. If any one of them wants to plan a conditioning program for a backpacking trip, there are four adults (one female) who can serve as consultants. We love it and will make it happen. Their's nothing keeping us from being all about shooting sports except the NRA instructor, although as willing as I am, is a phone call away. That seems to be enough to slow them down. One youth might step up and make that call once every other year. I am going to bet another of our problems is our group is really young too. I've experienced that as well. Especially since 90% of my group leaves for college by age 18. Another 5% go to boot camp about then. So our program is shy of that expert awards track that the manual describes. My president needs a lots of coaching. That said, the officers seem to be quite proud of the work they do. Emb YES, there is advancement, but its something each venturer chooses to do. The advancement is on one hand tougher (because we are dealing with older youth) and more flexible. Recognition is not exactly advancement. The awards do not qualify you for anything. (Whereas First Class qualifies you to take your patrol hiking and camping. Or, at least it should.)

All of these, descriptions, although true, miss the point of Venturing's place. Yes, youth can do anything they want ('cept sky-diving, ATV's and paintball). But that's not the point. Yes, boys and girls can operate in close proximity while safely chaperoned. But that's not the point. Yes, yes a crew can be specialists. They can work closely with a troop, or be very independent. But that's not the point. Yes, they can help a council's recruitment/retention stats. But that's not the point. Awards are optional, but they demand skills in their category at roughly the level of what would be demanded of any First Class scout wishing to advance. If your troop considers advancement beyond FC to be gravy -- and not part of the Eagle mill, that's pretty much the same thing. The point is this: Young men and women at this age are ready to take their place in society. They are ready to sit together, look around, see how the youth in their community can be served. They are ready to call us old farts with time on our hands to help them make program that would otherwise not exist. If they've been scouts, they are ready to return favors to their charter organization and councils by feeding them creative ideas for service and program that may not otherwise exists until these youth go off to college or war, come back, find jobs, have kids, and sit around a committee of formidable adults and finally dare to say "you know, when I was a kid, I wish I had a chance to ..." Now that my crew is seasoned (to the point I'm starting to call the founding members and ask if they want to be my co-advisors), I don't waste time asking my officers "What do you want to do?" They'll tell me that, eventually. I pose them a tougher question "What do your friends/classmates/troopmates who aren't in this room want to do? How can we offer it to them?" Not sure how well that will work, but I figure that until your crew is sufficiently "other centered" to carry meaning with these kids, you can count on it fizzling in a couple of years.

Thanks for more details. The guy's a slug. You need some salt. First, remove him from PL before this goes any further. Tell him he can reapply to the SPL for the position (or any other leadership position) when he actually starts teaching and helping for a couple of months in a way that befits the POR he would like to be in. (E.g. for PL, teach a few scout skills; for QM inventory the troop's supplies; for Librarian measure shelf space or sort books.) Show scout spirit by doing stuff without looking for a reward. Second, make it clear that as he gets older, you will expect quality workmanship. No typo's on project workbook. Detailed accounting for everything, etc ... So if he want's to procrastinate, fine. But he'd better show the highest quality work for the extra time he's taking. Thirdly, make it clear that you consider part of Scout Spirit to be honing skills he already claims to know by virtue of the patch on his left pocket. That means if he can't "remember" 9 points of safe swim defense this week, you will expect him to be able to do it next week. If he is unfriendly at one meeting, he needs to apologize the next. An unwillingness to improve is a lack of Scout Spirit. Fourthly (and this is the tough one). Explain to mom, that the last step to Eagle is the hardest, and some life scouts are just not cut out for it. The only way we'll know for sure is if we take the "heat" off of him to get that Eagle, and help him to simply be the best scout he can be. Good luck.

Our crew and troop once served as victims in a triage drill at the local airport. They needed hundreds of volunteers. The youths' time and availability was greatly appreciated.

I think the boy has given you an "out" by proceeding slowly with his workbook. This is your opportunity to agree with him and say, "Hey, since we're not focusing on your project workbook this winter would you like to try some things that might make you a better patrol leader?" You could suggest teaching/communication skills. Planning an activity, building a tower, gateway, or (brace yourself for committee member backlash) trebuchet! Is he weak on all skills? For example, can he fold a flag properly? Does he know the parts of the badge well enough to host a Jeopardy game? You want to start by catering to his strengths. Point is, if he's going to be slow on his Eagle project, you want to make it clear that he has to be into scouting. Finally, it sounds like you may have to do as much listening as talking. Try to figure out what's going on in his life. Other activities, family, girls, cars, or friends could be playing a factor.

This past week, I had a couple of non-scouting youth on separate occasions if I've ever hiked the AT. Just goes to show how popular it is. We have to be prepared to "educate" on trail. Chances are the one's who need it will not have read this thread! In fact, the more I think about it. Most of the stuff I've learned about hiking, I've learned while hiking!

E92, I assure you even here in the "great white north" something of the sort would thrill the boys. Although it would take a special group of den parents to let it happen. One of my sons favorite campouts was in a survival shelter as the snow started to fall. Our crew has a standing rule that the kid who speaks up about wanting an activity runs point to make it happen. This is a little less formal than the "activity chair model", but it is basically a play stolen from the leadership manual. Depending on the maturity of the youth and the level of "must-do" the officers give the idea, I'll direct him/her to an adult who can help consult for it. Anyway, because it's a spelled-out aspect of the Venturing program, I can direct an adult to it and shield myself from a lot of skepticism. I'm goin "by the book" and if the crew folds, they can just blame National, a program that's only a decade old, or the brainwashing I got at VLST. What's really nice, then, is that if I behave the same way towards the older boys in the troop, folks just chalk it up to me "going all crew advisor" on them. Meanwhile the boys step up, and we get a little more "boy led" without using those two three-letter words.

M2C, there's no "kinda" subtracting. Either you are or you aren't. We discussed the 5-mile-hike at length in another thread (http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=327760). Applying a footnote is following a requirement. It enables a boy to prove his orienteering skills -- the point of the 5-mile hike -- by using means that compensate for his inability to walk distances.

The young lady is a Venturing youth, so it is not required for her to take it for any needs of her crew. That said, I would be thrilled to have a IOLS trained youth in my crew. I would ask her to throw the gauntlet down to other venturing leaders. Because IOLS is for leaders and she's doing this for her troop, she doesn't need a chaperon of the same sex. However, depending on the maturity of the individual (or the immaturity of the other students), you may want to ask around if there is another female adult willing to take the course. You may or may not know your district's volunteers well enough to discern that. But encouraging more female adults to take IOLS is never a bad idea.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

We have all kinds of pockets. No secret that we take donations and hand-me-downs. The Mrs. feels blessed with with a job and a love for shopping, so when she hears that Johnny or Janey needs boots or pack she'll get 'em for bottom dollar and have me leave them on their door step no questions asked. Every boy knows that gear just sitting in his closet is doing nobody good. As a result our place is a revolving door for gear. But, charity has its limits. We don't float anyone for high adventures. If they can't put up the cash through fundraisers or their own job, they're off the roster. (Obviously we'll find a donor for the one kid in every 20 who can't make that last payment due to unforeseen circumstances.) It's our units' responsibility to provide low-cost options for program while challenging boys to save aggressively. If a subset of those boys put their dimes behind an additional trip, we support it as best we can. Sometimes we're lucky and nearly the whole troop or crew fall for a big ticket item. Everybody pitches in to make it work. But those times are rare of late. Oh, and we do have a lot of movement in social class. Day laborers whose kids are professional/executives and vice-versa.

Honestly, the fact that the boy is having dialogue on this level shows some impressive communication skills. I'm glad you want to take the time to help him take it to the next level. Hopefully he will plan a time to teach another skill and meet with you ahead of time.

I like the way Sail thinks. The advantage of this, by the way, is that a boy can be working on a number of requirements at once, mastering each. I had the opposite experience of SP. We had a sprained (potentially broken) wrist while backpacking. And the boys had a hard time addressing it on their own, in spite of the 1st aid merit badge. They kind of had the concepts, and I bet they could repeat the skill with the materials laid out for them, but they didn't get so comfortable with the skill that the materials would be secondary. They couldn't rig a splint absent a triangular bandage. Truth be told, it was a tough problem for us SMs to figure out. (Posted about it in a previous thread.) But I do wonder if we were a little bit victims of a "once and done" mentality.

Ea, Eag and Rat, Ditto. There is no "boy feeling he met a requirement". There is going to the PL and saying "Let me show this to you." or "Did you like the meal I cooked for you all?" or "You remember how I kept us from hiking miles out of our way?" and following up, "Well here's my book, it deserves a signature on that line." Some of the pro-O&D posters sound like they are signing off on requirements instead of the PL/SPL. First of all, that's really tiring watching 10 newbs tie bowlines, etc .... Second, that sets yourself up as the sole judge and jury. Trust me, the older boys will come to you when there is something that is ambiguous. Thirdly, whatever your opinion on these matters, you miss out on sharing it with the boys who need to hear it the most (your leadership corps). Finally you miss out on the really fun part of the SMC ... "I see PL Tom signed off on cooking. I hear he's pretty strict. What did you do to impress him?" By the way, did I tell you we had the best FC SMC ever this summer? Three adults and the candidate were on resting on pine needles watching the sun set across the edge of a canyon while the rest of the troop was on a water run. I'm really glad the boy took as long as he did to make rank; otherwise, we would have missed that moment!

Yep, BD you did these boys a disservice. 1. You did not ask where this unit (if indeed it was a BSA unit) was from. You weren't friendly in spite of their lack of courtesy. 2. You did not take it upon yourself to explain the rules of courtesy along the AT. The simplest being: first-comers get dibs. The more nuanced being: give the old guy a little space for cryin' out loud! 3. After having read all of Kudu's posts, you didn't take time to educate this group on the patrol method (groups of 8 at least 300' apart). So thanks a lot. I'll probably be sitting on a boulder someplace 100 yards away from my youth and this outfit is going to troddle along and tell me to bugger off! And because you let them have their way, I'm the one whose going to have to set them straight. There are plenty of rules on the scouting books for this sort of thing. Folks just need to be reminded of them.

... thank you to the powers that be that Engineer61 is not a parent in our Troop ... How do you know? I can see a lot of parents in our troop fitting this mold. The SM and ASMs and talk at length to them when they raise concerns. Sometime they're right. Sometimes we offer apologies. Other times we make it clear that change is not forthcoming and explain why.

1. Not sure of the percentage. And leadership structure was not the only issue. 2. The boys in our troop love it there. Some boys whose parents spun off to another troop miss "our grass." 3. You all heard me say it before. We need a sign: "Troop ___, we take bad kids!"

100% of boys FCFY is what offends us. That a couple of "ahead of the curve" boys deservedly earn FCFY is not a problem. When you tell me that my unit lacks quality because it's taking on average 2.5 years for a boy to achieve FC, I reply that that is precicely why our unit is quality!

I think Kathy nailed it. Not only does a scout learn, a scout teaches. We teach our PLs to find out what their boys need for their next rank, build a program around it, and teach the skills for it. We have our scout-ranks/tenderfoots teaching newbies the parts of the badge. Second class scouts teach basic knots and let the tenderfoots know who they can talk to about rights and responsibilities. First class scouts demonstrate line rescues and arrange hikes. Now we don't intentionally make every SMC a review session, but if a boy can't show he knows a skill, we send him back to the books. (Since I don't teach EDGE, our boys know that learning a skill starts with reading a reference.) We don't delete his signature. We won't take away his 2nd class rank. But we aren't going to worry about a week's delay. We don't give him a pass because that just insults his intelligence.

Nag is a hard job. Done well, everyone loves you. Done poorly, you're doomed. The parent who shows up or sends her boy with a box of homemade chocolate chip cookies -- troop cookie-master.

As a crew advisor, this comes to the fore a lot. I've known parents who simply couldn't trust the YP guidelines to keep their daughter (on case it was a son) safe. Explaining the G2SS to them in detail didn't help. One youth upon turning 18 wanted to join the crew, and I encouraged her to still get the okay of her folks. It was sad when they didn't approve, but I told her I admired her for respecting their wishes and left it at that. The parents who could trust us were the ones who were willing to come on outings and see things in operation.

Way to go, Bart, now I LOST THE GAME! I figure it's renamed because a lot of us have read or studied game theory. And you've made the WB-ers point. If you are "in the game" to "win all you can" you loose sight of the possibility that "you all can win". In other words, if the aims of scouting are not valuable, your best strategy is to get the most out of the program for you and your kid and not return too many favors. But, if the aims do have intrinsic value, your best strategy is to make sure the way is clear for everyone to achieve those aims in hope that you'll be included in the winning. Sure, it's a little hokey. But I think that's the point. BTW ... Our course director did reference the prisoner's dilemma.

On pirates: I just read a quote from a brigand who was arrested by Alexander the Great [to which I can only paraphrase at the moment]: "the only difference between us is I rob using one ship while you do the same with an armada." On what-to-do-with-my-kid: Keep in mind that the SM may have gotten jumped on by the last BOR for sending up scouts who had no clue about insignia, and he was just trying to save the boy the embarrassment that comes with failure in front of a bunch of adults. Not saying the adults' attitude is right, but sometimes that's the dynamic. If your boy's having fun, stay. Volunteer to offer a skills challenge on one or two requirements. (For example, I routinely offer orienteering challenges and water rescue, another dad is all about fire starting, another about citizenship, another about insignia.) Make it available to the entire troop. Have a prize for the best patrol or the boy who is first to submit an answer in writing. It could take up the morning of a campout, a 15 minute opening activity, or an 5 minute announcement. Make it so the SPL can set it up (or at least help). You don't have to change everything. You just need to offer one thing that will enhance the program. (If you think of 5 things like that, hustle up and take WB because your ticket's nearly written.) You just explain to your son that bureaucratic delays are part of the micromanagement of this troop, and enduring them is the price of sticking with it. If he's okay with that price, he'll learn to stick with it. If he's not having fun, let him know it's okay to visit other troops and transfer to one that's more his style. When he's older he may find himself building patrols with other boys anyway (e.g. Jambo, O/A, etc ...), so he's just getting a head start on that fun part of scouting. But, point out that chances are a boy-led troop may not sign off on requirements as quickly. PL's are busy people, and you often learn the parts of the badge on your own. Or if you do it in a group, you aren't allowed to sign off on it until at least the following week, and you have to get it perfect before they'll sign off (no looking it up and coming back that same hour), and there's no rank-advancement SMC until the PL is sure your stuff is in order. At the end of the day, forall the fun you'll have, advancement may go a little slower.

Well ... references can be a selective list. The advantage of someone from the community, is you can easily use the local grapevine to tap more folks than are on the reference list. But, as Beav pointed out, a really good predator knows how to hide in plain sight. He/she is unlikely to be the bumbling 19 year old who's new to town and looking for some way to make himself useful to the community where he just landed.

I think each year a good program should provide multiple opportunities for a boy to exercise every T-2-1 requirement. In this age of velcro and ratchet straps, I'm never surprised when a boy forgets how to tie a sheep-shank. But, when he can't re-learn it quickly by going to the book, that's a problem. If a boy shows continued ineptitude with knots, I don't want him advancing. Why? Because his patrol can't count on him to pull it together (literally) when they need him to. He is, by definition, not a First Class Scout.