qwazse

I don't think a quota would make a difference with our troop. Not all of the boys eligible get elected. If over the past couple of days, you have not helped this year's crossovers adapt to camp, you've lost nearly half your voting block. Cuss and/or prattle on rudely about the gentler sex in front of 2nd year scouts, you've just lost another 20%. That's what I love about elections at camp. After not getting called out, those boys will approach me, and we have a pretty solid discussion about how to correctly "set the compass" for the following year. I tell them the next time I hear them acting inappropriately, I won't yell. I will simply walk up to them and say "And you wonder why?" For that reason alone I am grateful for O/A, and the SM's status doesn't matter at all. The rest of us in the troop will keep offering it to the boys. That lightens the SM's burden. But, authenticity (both in terms of Native American culture and cheerful service) are what makes our chapter worth joining. Keep that up, and you'll maintain interest. Bringing back secrecy and rough-and-tumble stuff does our boy's interest. That's just hiding a light under a bushel. How are you going to get your non-O/A SM to appreciate the program if he feels excluded from a ceremony? Bringing "the honor camping society" back into use may help with vision. Certainly a lot of boys are interested in a venturing crew if it's activities are "above and beyond" the troop's. Can't hurt for O/A.

MT: The term applies to protestant worship as well. And when I grew up, 'dem Presbyterians served communion then. Besides, Meryl would be really upset if we took the mass out of Newton's day!

SSSc:It really would be appropriate to have a Faith and Chaplaincy forum (look at this series!), thus alleviating the load on the I&P and other forums. Face it, a lot of us simply don't believe and the separation of F&C and I&P! I can see it now. One of us makes a comment with religious overtones and SSSc and his thought police will petition Terry to move it to the virtual "Avenue of Churches" and leave it there. This entire thread is not about Faith and Chaplaincy. This is about what policy should be used to handle the issue of unfettered expression of religion. It is in exactly the right forum for this site.

HC - Except for one or two really active individuals, my numbers are a lot like yours, and the Troop and Crew are under the same roof. This term, our troop's SPL has two leadership positions in our crew and our ASPL has one leadership position in the crew. So, yeah, it's a drain on both units when that happens. (But it's a youth decision, so we're stuck with it.) On the flip-side, in their positions with the crew they hone some leadership skills that I've seen them apply in the troop. So our patrol method isn't any more broken than it was before we rolled out the Venturing program. IMHO limited use of the patrol method is more a function of adults unwilling to let it happen than any draw that the crew has. You may not see it this way, but your boys who are multiples with that other crew and only showing up for one activity are doing them a HUGE service. They are giving some other youth an opportunity to plan a program for them. As advisors, that's kind of what we're looking for.

Pack. It was a Papal thing. (Might makes right, basically.) There are Christians (strident anti-Catholics) who oppose a set date. Then in the U.S. capitalists seized it as a money-maker. The Nativity scene was the invention of St. Francis of Assisi. His parishioners didn't have much to offer for Christmas besides themselves, so he said "OK, That works." Then, folks who saw it said "Hey I could make a carving of that so I don't have to go out in the cold and stare at these peasants ..." Then, folks looked at the carvings and said, "Hey, we could dress up like peasants and do that!" [source: qwazse's crassly redacted history of the world.]

MT: What was wrong with allowing a Jewish display?? Not always on (and usually finished by) the 25th. Or a Santa display?? St. Nicolas day is the 8th. Or some other winter wonderland display?? Sure, how about Jan 2nd - Feb 13th? I don't think Orthodox Christians would mind -- they usually don't insist on displays in public squares on Jan 6th. The counter question: Why insist that every day/season that is special to one religion be turned into a pantheon? P.S.- In the show you were watching, did the characters actually disallow a menorah? That would be funny since the historical context of any Christ narrative is necessarily post Maccabees! (No temple, no lampstand. No lampstand, no restoration. No restoration, no point announcing a new king.)

TT We have POR descriptions that say "attend 75% of meetings and Troop activities" and then do not take attendance., Have you asked your boys the question my theapist friends hate asking. "Tell me, how does that make you feel?" If they say "Don't worry, we know who's a 50%-er, and we'll tell you if he should not be on a ballot." Then you probably are okay. If they say "Nobody can meet that mark. It stinks." Then you might want to rethink the policy with them. (Possibly increasing the importance of troop Scribe.) If they say "Who cares? You adults are going to do what you're going to do." Then you have a big problem and the committee needs to know about it right away and figure out how to get boys more involved in the process. And here's my point: none of us old folks can define the expectations for our units. The best we can do is reflect what we hear from our boys about what's fair and what should be expected for each POR. (Warning the boys that if they expect X one of THEM will have to be in charge of reporting X!)

No surprise that Christians want special treatment. They spent centuries co-opting this holiday from the pagans (and suppressing some Evangelicals who insist that one day on the Julian calendar not be elevated above any other). Now that they've made the whole thing into a syncretic secular economic engine that no idol-fashioner could ever have imagined, and demand a token of respect for their success, every marginalized group wants in on the action! Well boo hoo! Get your own day. Now if the atheists want to organize a unified display around some prominent date (say Voltaire's birthday, or the anniversary of the invention of TV) that motivates folks to go out and consume big bucks and spurs people to part with their hoarded dimes (or credits) to grease or economy, more power to them. It's the American way. Actually I don't mind if they make a play for the 25th, it just seems pathetic.

I like your definition Brent. It meshes with our communication-oriented society. Sometimes I think we should do role call at meetings just like we do at camp. At the SPL's direction each patrol sounds off: "All present or accounted for sir" "Who is not present Mr. PL?" "Joey and Johnny, sir" "Did they both call/text/E-mail you as to to their absence?" "Well sir Joey told me he had to visit his grandma, and I know Johny has practice for the game." "Mr. PL, that was not the question I asked you." "Sorry sir. No, they did not both tell me." "Would you please, then, revise your count?" "One unaccounted for, the remaining present or accounted for, sir."

Never saw a big problem with NS leaders. We all come to the table with different skills. And sometimes different baggage. On the flip side, I am excited that some of my first venturers are now old enough to sign on as co-advisors. I would like my replacement to have a better "from the bottom up" perspective than I had starting out as a non-venturing leader. (Yes, having a bit of scouting experience helped, but not much.) No problem with female SM's. If the boys love and respect 'em, keep them in charge. If you ever make it down to Key West, check out the sculpture garden on the edge of Mallory Square. There's a bust of one lady to whom all the scouts in the Keys owe their gratitude. No problem with former scouts who aren't helping with the program now. Invariably they are caught up helping others, and those recipients of the good turns just don't happen to be members of the BSA.

Other facts not in evidence: The impending military career, noble as it is, can sometimes be a "wake-up" call to go after Eagle. The sudden realization that a boy might get a bump in pay-grade is enough to motivate some boys who three months earlier were dismissive of the badge. Even if that was his motivation, would I ask the SPL to find the boy a POR? Probably. But, then again, our troop does not have fixed elections. I have no idea what the history of the OP's troop is that would require them to stick to the schedule, but our troop plays fast-and-loose with elections and appointments, and sometimes I think we suffer from "schedule slip" and our program hurts because of it. So, I'm with Beav. Don't throw stones. The ASM and SM should talk so that they understand each other's thinking -- even if they disagree. It's perfectly fine that the ASM communicate the opinions of the troop back to the boy, and explain him his options. There's nothing wrong with that being done out of a sense of loyalty to the boy and his folks. So I think CR8 did the right thing. It will be interesting to see what the boy decides.

Our crew had several advantages when it chartered. One of them was that the youth where a healthy mix of jocks, geniuses, and thugs. Some of them wore two of those hats. I certainly think our venturing ladies were the finest in the district. The dolled up nicely for dances. But, I always thought they looked their best when they were dropping off a cliff, scrambling out of a hole in the ground, or pulling out of some rapids.

I am told the original law in PA was more for religious reasons. But religious or not, everyone's used to it now. I kinda buy into that "let the land rest" sentiment a little. And like, noname, there are folks counting on that one day a week to be able to run around and not get shot. I think some beasts count on it too. Last year I was out with my crew on the last weekend of deer season, and Sunday morning it was something to hear all of the dear whistling -- almost to say "hey guys, they stopped shooting!" Of course I get that the idiot hunter is as likely to be out on a ban day and shoot a hiker as he is to be out during regular season and shoot a regular hunter. So, I'm still on the fence trying to figure out which side to come down on.

Just handed down a "vintage" venturing shirt to our VOA VP admin last night. She's seen the green shirts before but never wore one. She was especially enthralled by the fleur-de-lis on the buttons. I think it actually made her day. Can I suggest we get that detail back on the new unis?

OGE - BD's generalization is very true to my experience. The girls we know are a rare breed. I have one senior and one potential associate advisor who felt that this muck-about stuff was not for them until their husbands/boyfriends dragged them into it. des - Although true in principle, I've found crews that become "helicopter parented" as well. In fact, there are very few troop related problems that don't find their way into venturing. That said, venturing's place, I think, is to provide that "growing room" where the youth are responsible to pull everything they got from BS/GS/whatever and make and adventurous program.

Do you offer elections at summer camp? Surely you have enough arrowmen among camp staff to facilitate this. As a youth you got my attention by authentic dancing during tap-outs. But as to getting my attention as an adult, O/A did the following: - The lodge/chapter chief visited roundtables asking what went well and what could be done differently. - Chapter meetings concurrent with roundtable increased visibility and were convenient if a youth from my troop wanted to attend. - My youth love some of the weekends hosted by O/A. - The lodge chief wrote a reflection in the council newsletter. - Arrowmen helped serve meals for some venturing weekends. - O/A hand-me-downs on venturers new to backpacking. That cheerful service goes a long way ...

Our state has a ban on hunting on Sundays, which some sportsman are lobbying to lift. I hike and camp year-round and have not given much thought to hunters in the woods. (Occasionally when a gobbler is courting at 5 AM, I say a special prayer of guidance for any nearby hunters. ) I simply am more judicious of where I hike, and have my youth put on orange and stick to designated trails. However, I know a lot of folks who won't go out this time of year 'cept on Sunday. Lifting the ban, they feel, would remove the only opportunity for a 'safe' hike in the winter. Opinions? Especially form those of you where no such ban is in place?

I was in the Bahamas on a boat full of youth who didn't like seafood. Good thing I didn't catch anything big. On the other hand, the one girl who over the past year had developed a seafood allergy loved learning to fish. Go figure. Would have been nice to see her with a tarpon on the line.

Venturing just became its own district in our council, so adult leaders of crews have an equal chance of DAM's, I suppose. Can youth submit nominations? Youth recommendations of adults was the most significant part of the VLA's in my opinion.

Sticking with the theater example, a HS group may not: Be directed solely by youth. Have a group discussion as to the next play they'll put on. Travel to visit theaters of movie shoots in the area. Examine ethical controversies regarding issues in the entertainment industry. Plan overnights on the stage of a historic theater. Run a program that helps grade-school kids plan and implement skits. Organize a special dramatic service for a religious group. A venturing crew could do all of those things. Of course, crews do mold themselves to their advisors. If the crew advisor is an avid kayaker and hiker, it's not going to easily loose its outdoor focus.

Lisa, Ditto the above. Tell the boy when he goes to college, he'll look back and wonder why he thought any of those were hard. But tell him failure is a distinct possibility. As long as he has the sense that he might not fulfill the requirements if he slacks, the odds are in his favor that he'll overcome. We know one Eagle candidate who had the attitude that he could put everything off up until the last minute. He was only a candidate. Denial is a great path, until you slam into the wall at the end of it!

The boy didn't outright say that he explained to his SM about the catch-22 of February elections. Definitely talk to the SM about whatever you do. Maybe something got lost in translation. Another strategy -- and it's a long shot -- is to look for a venturing crew that needs an officer and multiple register with them (or transfer to it outright). Very few crews would appoint a new leader sight-unseen. (Appointment is generally up to the youth, so the boy had better come with some serious qualities to offer.) And any board of review worth its salt will query the boy extensively about his unique leadership experience.

I would also ask around if there are some LDS members willing to staff a Thursday-PM-Friday-Saturday deal.

That's okay d. It's just one more thread that folks could use to accuse each other of being un-scoutlike just because they think a patch now has a little novelty to its story.

Some ideas ... Duct tape. Rope. Star Charts. Track/Scat guides. Dehydrated meals (esp novel desserts). Wool socks/liners. Fishing lures (or if they're looking for a hobby, lure kits). Survival blankets.