qwazse

A CO that expects that will probably also expect the Cub pack to be strongly religious (in a born-again Christian sense) in its emphasis ... That's not a forgone conclusion. Most of these programs get planted because a member of the CO feels that they should be doing something different that what already exists, and he/she scopes out existing programs and finds finds one that would "fill that gap". One group won't impose on the other. AHA's COR Jane wouldn't tell BSA's COR John how to do his ministry. The CO may set minimum standards for both. But, they will probably insist that leaders bend over backwards to make the non-Christian in the group feel welcome. (E.g. our CO asks: be good, say grace before meals, do a voluntary "scouts own" devotional if you find yourselves out on a Sunday. No enforcement.) The reason is simple, they don't want running in the woods and carving box cars and even memorizing a few verses of scripture to be confounded with being counted as a member of their religion -- even though they would love if a slew of kids did any or all of those things under their roof. Again that's the typical operation of most successful church boards, even ones that come from a hierarchical tradition.

Month 17. Just getting my summary ready for my ticket counselor: 1. A venturer school recruiting program using an auto fill script that presenters can complete online. 2. Promote using venturing advancement for senior service projects. 3. Promote Venturing Leader Specific Training to my crew committee. 4. Encourage youth identify locations to meet in their various neighborhoods. 5. Perform a self-assessment. Mine were very dependent on others. For example University of Scouting got cancelled last year! Doing my part didn't necessarily yield in the results I wanted. Lesson learned. Moving on.

I too would look elsewhere for a BSA unit if my unit's CO chartered an AHG group. I would question that the CO's religious policies had turned toward a much more limited, and aggressive, direction, and would be concerned that those polices/views would affect their BSA program. Does your CO have a youth group a Sunday school class that invites non Christians? Maybe you should leave now! If good people are pouring out love to my kids, then they've earned the right to preach religion to them. and if those kids want to race derby cars brothers and sisters together, that's fine by me. Now if my CO harbored armed militias (history of clergy fomenting the Whiskey Rebellion doesn't count), I would consider relocating.(This message has been edited by Qwazse)

Thanks emb,I've read other material you've written on mission and vision, and I like the distinction between global and local scope. The reason I asked this is that a new advisor invited me and some others to his first open-house/informational meeting, and if asked to speak, rather than going on about my on-the-ground vision of venturing, I'd like to be able to say some thing like "here's how some other youth described this program ...". [insert comments ripped,from this's thread here] So if you have some fodder, I'm at the trough.

Last time I checked..camping, hiking, exploring or knowing what to do in an emergency is not limited to english speaking people. But using a four letter word as an acronym for an inadequate teaching method is! Hopefully the Spanish course will pick a sharper mnemonic that includes "reference".

It's okay to tell people "I'm sorry, I forgot,your name?" I saw the VP schmoozing on our town's parade route yesterday, and he acted fine that everybody new him, and he was letting complete strangers take his picture give him their babies to kiss, etc.... But along those lines, it is also okay to make tough decisions like you are going to trade off one responsibility for another, so if you take on a position, you do so in a way that will do the most good. Turning down a position because under the circumstances, it's the better decision for the boys -- could fall in that category. It sounds like you helped the SM get the bigger picture, and maybe he'll still tap you as a resource. You can put him in touch with adults who will help him call "BS" on his dysfunctional committee. There was a time as a new crew advisor (the first one I ever met), my trainers did exactly that for me. I used the folks on our council's Venturing committee and the VOA as a sounding board. I could ask them, "Am I crazy?" They would reply, "Yes, but you are also right." That kept me going for several months until the adults in my troop and crew got on the same page. And the unit numbers on your shoulder won't have to match for you to provide that service!

I'll add this to a number of things to be prepared to call "BS" on. But, I have only seen this discussion in these forums. Must be in SW PA one doesn't come between a boy and his knife.

Keep in mind that Christian CO's are tasked with welcoming non-Christians into their community, so they will give support to programs that allow that. So. If AHG comes off as turning away families who,would rather keep church at arms length,the adult leaders might hear from the institutional head.

Naw, what shows the CO that we care enough to go above the minimum is lots of youth filling their building, posters of their exploits each year, the food pantry full when times are tough in the community.

Hammocks. Wipes. Portable camp showers are possible, but set-up is time consuming. BTW, the young women in my crew disdain cabins. Even sailing, they prefer to sleep topside.

Double post(This message has been edited by Qwazse)

Hammocks. Wipes. Portable camp showers are possible, but set-up is time consuming. BTW, the young women in my crew disdain cabins. Even sailing, they prefer to sleep topside.

The SPL doesn't need to be defending tradition to parents. (Bully for him if he can.) He should be helping carry forward thos traditions. The SM should be laying out new ideas, and many of them will come from the parents. I take suggestions from adults constantly, I try to compile them so the officers in my crew can evaluate them and contact the adult about implementing them. For a driven adult I can see how this can come across as stonewalling, but it helps the youth maintain a say in their unit.

Thanks, SR I'm in! Both the troop and the crew would love this! I'll tell them I heard it from you first! (This message has been edited by Qwazse)

Now that you all have beaten this horse from three sides, I'll take a crack from my soapbox ... This is all about an unfounded reliance on EDGE. The SM believes that the only way to learn is I'd someone Explains something. This means Johnny new scout needs someone to do the explaining. In an attempt to be youth led the SM appoints his PLs to be explainers - among other things. Not just explainers of how to hike and camp safely, but how to sew patches! Not patches on tents or rucksacks, or torn jeans (because heaven help us you weren't wearing your uniform that day), but pricey patches on pricey shirts of seemingly delicate space age fabric! This is not the context in which you refer a loving mom to a PL, this is where you ask "was there something in the book that is unclear?" And then you offer, "maybe you and me and Johnny can look at an example together." Then you ask, "has Johnny ever tried to sew? This might be a good opportunity to show him how. It's fine if he only gets one or two patches done by next week. Because although we use a uniform method, it's just as important that he dig into that handbook and impress hid PL with some scoutcraft that interests him. After all THE BEST WAY to learn is by reading it for yourself first." If you want to teach independence, teach people how to leverage their references!!!!

Then you answered you own question, I think. Change must happen. But, you signing on isn't going to make it happen. Your vote of "no confidence" delivered as courteously as possible is the best chance for this troop to address basic issues first. Hold out for the next troubled unit to come along.

Instead of knots, you should get an app that scrolls them on your iPod, and velcro the iPod above your pocket! Then you could touch the knot and it would tell you what you did to earn it (while playing patriotic music in the background).

The question is not really what are you gonna do to fix it but whether this is indicative of what this troop interprets "boy-led" to be. Hard fact: boys do stupid stuff. (Like getting impatient and under-cooking meals.) They don't usually tap the resources at their disposal to avoid stupidity. ("Mr. SPL, are these eggs done enough?") Other hard fact: it doesn't kill them. Usually doesn't even make them sick. Piece of grace: usually someone notices (e.g. your friend's son) and won't let them live it down for the rest of their scouting career. This has a very strong preventative effect! That's why I try to encourage moms to keep up with the camping, even if it's one weekend a year. Just to address your very concerns, and to see how they grow in discipline as the years pass.

I review go/no-go decisions with youth on Thursday night, and we work toward a consensus. (For the venturers I print up the NWS forecast and the hourly weather graph and put it on the table with no explanation and say, "Interpret." Then we work through the implications.) Unless: 1. My drivers don't feel up for it. (E.g. old tires + fresh snow + hills.) 2. The ranger report is truly threatening. 3. Conditions are completely the opposite of what we've prepared anyone for. Any of the above and I'm cancelling grudgingly the hour before! SM and I did so last month (impending ice storm). Even then, I give a careful explanation to the youth in charge. And yes, I'm still second guessing a month afterword!

I'm usually in the position of insisting to a parent that lil' Johnny can't go because he did not qualify for x y or z! And this is one when parents are divided I take a long step back. If you're losing sleep, try not to wake the Missus! Bigger picture: his swimming ability is a problem. It must be overcome, because frankly, I don't see your troop backing off of aquatics anytime soon. When he comes back and you have a moment give him a "one of the things that everyone expects of a First Class scout is ..." lecture. If there's a seasoned instructor (scout or scouter) who works with tough cases, invite him over to your house to give the boy a few pointers. This doesn't have to be done right away, and it might not work instantly. But boy's gotta know this is important to you to know that he's prepared when all of AZ is back under water!

Thanks mom! Okay, given the gory details, MIB: Stipulate to the COR that you will take a leadership position when they replace the current CC. These folks have to understand that interviews are two-way mirrors! They often tell more about yourself than your candidate. For all intents and purposes, this means you won't be the SM or ASM anytime soon, but making your opinion clear may the wake-up call the troop needs to set it's compass true! The above sounds impolite, but you just felt the blindside. Just think if you agreed to that mish-mash position thinking "Oh well, I'll just have to figure out how to work around everybody." Sooner or later your actions would offend someone deeply. This way, if you do come into this troop in either position, you've laid the groundwork for what needs to change.

Scouts camping in a public area is nothing new. Saw some 1914(?) newsreel footage of some scouts clambering over a wall at a public venue (grass field and such). Lots of passers by watching. Pretty sure it wasn't backwoods. Yes, ball field camping should count. Yes, if that's all you do it's kind of pathetic, but if all you do is run off to the big woods and gnaw sassafras root with your venture patrol, that's kinda pathetic too. Variety is the spice of life. The point of getting into tent-camping IMHO, is to learn a little resourcefulness and not drain your wallet on lodging every time you travel. Teaching a boy to do that for a ball game may help him when he's older and married and has to visit friends' weddings but has not socked enough away yet to justify a hotel. (Oh, my poor wife!) nn -- if there is an trained adult from another troop willing to go, that's all you'll need to cover the tour permit.

I am FINE with my son going hungry because of say, not enough food (i.e. poor planning), but I am NOT fine with him getting food poisoning (i.e. poor supervision). Does that make sense? Sounds like we have a volunteer for cooking merit badge counselor! Okay, I'm from an ethnicity that eats raw meat. (We try to be on good terms with the farmer and butcher so we know what we're grinding into some awesome entree`s.) But, yes, boys and food are a big concern. All it takes is one kid not washing his hands after coming from the latrine! Generally older boys have learned this so they make pretty good supervisors. They're eating the same food and care deeply about such things! But usually if it's one incident, and everyone heard about it, the older boys will make sure it doesn't happen again. So you should ask follow-up questions like when this happened and who knew and how did they change things. Often the story a boy brings home from camp omits the latter two details that would ease a parents mind!

We old folks like to play this "shades of grey" game. Don't let us do it. First of all, there's no such thing as "just a formality." Sorry nobody's told you that before, but now you know for future reference. Respectfully tell the committee, that for the sake of the boys you will either: 1. Wear the SM patch and do that job to the best of your ability. 2. Wear the ASM patch and help the SM do *his* job to the best of his ability. Finally, get the CC and COR on the line and tell them they are allowed to have qualms about you being an SM, in which case they need to offer the position to someone else. But, if they have no qualms, you'll need their full support, and you never want to be blindsided in a meeting like that again. You never want any committee to treat any adult that way. If something's in doubt, spell it out!

pro) Venturing young ladies love Cubs! They might not care about potential suitors in uniform, but the little ones in those dress blues have an overwhelming "cute factor!" FWIW - Crew parents can find the youth leadership method of venturers a little disorienting. Especially when they see me setting up my hammock and taking naps while the youth are out running program. (They catch on when its 11:30 PM and I start making rounds doing "last call" and accounting for everyone's location!) But the same dad who is "just observing" one moment, will be taking some kids out kayaking at my request the next. It's really a simple rule. We're hands off until we need to be hands on. It's that "need to be" bit that takes a little figuring! Folks like m2c need coaching and encouragement rather than pigeonholing and door closing. "I certainly do enjoy ... not having to sleep on the dirt on camping weekends." That just broke my heart.