qwazse

Ya know, when my kids were arguing, I told them that ideally they should begin addressing each other "Oh beloved brother/sister, ..." if they really cared about the point they were trying to make. They never did to each other, but I think that it rubbed off outside of the home because folks would come up and tell me about how respectful they were relative to other kids their age. That stuff is learned. It's part of communications, not citizenship per se. And I wouldn't expect the average American 12 year old to be very good at it given the overwhelming education in the media. Disney Channel, for example, is full of dramatic discourse, not eloquent rhetoric. The SE should not have apologized. He should have explained that the BSA encourages their youth to engage in public discourse and anything that the members of the board could do to help each youth improve their communication skills would be welcome. Then the SE should mention the need for more MB counselors in these areas. He might also suggest a tour of the jail might help the boy see the other side of the issue.

Also, DS, a 5 mile hike is part of First Class requirements (under the navigation category). A patrol could plan a 10 mile circuit just visiting each other's houses. For a boy who's been swimming and boating every day in the summer since age two, sure the MB could be knocked off in a morning. I say get those kids signed off and on their way to life saving and later BSA guard. Other boys may take years to finish the badge.

What the SM would have said: "Here I am am a volunteer for the finest young men in our town, and I have to come up to nine people just to tell them the boy's opinion was his own and not that of the the BSA."

The closest definition of "secure" seems to be Webster's 3a : to get usually lasting possession or control of So, purchasing is not necessarily implied. If he "plants the seed, grows the wheat, harvests the grain, grinds the flour" like Little Red Hen, that would count too. So would raiding the cupboards (with mom's permission). So would coordinated raids of each patrol member's cupboard (with respective mom's permisison). (Remember most grocery stores are a good clip away from home these days.) In other words, sign if the boy shows up with all the ingredients and isn't scrounging the floor of the troop trailer at the last minute.(This message has been edited by qwazse)

An exceptional troop in my mind: 1. Camps a lot. 2. Boys take lead. 3. Parents let them lead. 4. Practices and applies first class skills regularly. 5. Boys are active until age 18. The % and the age distribution of Eagle attainment doesn't factor into the equation at all. Maybe I'm biased because a goodly portion of the boys who stick around our troop do make Eagle, but I'd love to see more of items #2 and #3 from our boys.

if you can't recognize there is a baseline difference between the personalities of men and women, then you are either not being honest with yourself, or you live in a different universe than I do. D, You want to pretend that anyone who opposes you is in denial, and use that as a claim to dismiss their assertion. But, in my post I clearly affirmed we all have experienced [that difference] in a general "baseline" sense. This means that I can recognize that difference. Therefore, I am being honest with myself, and we do live in the same universe! In this universe in which we both live, I have found male SMs and ASMs who are divisive, domineering, backstabbers. (No news there. Your "divided house" reference was originally directed to a male-dominated audience.) And I have met a few female ASMs who are none of the above. And, yes, I have used the "you're not direct-contact" card as a shield from domineering committee members (of both sexes)! The boys notice it too. And you know what? They are willing to forgive the lot of us our faults if they can just go hiking and camping at least every month. I just wish we could dispense grace as readily as the boys. Anyway, you never know who will turn out to be the best adult for your boys. It's like a box of chocolates ...

Our boys love hiking (the activity, not the badge)! Half of them would have it if they just met with a counselor and did the paperwork. A couple of them actually do. Seems to me the one sure-fire way you could make a boy hate hiking is to make him walk 10 laps around a track. I bet even our Philmont veterans would quit after lap 2! I don't know what "MB day school" your boys go to, but my son has been working on swimming MB for 3 years! He's a fine swimmer too! Just one req. well within his ability. But, nobody's going to coddle him and call a counselor for him or adjust his camp schedule or any of that helicopter stuff. You probably can gather that in our troop we wouldn't give a donkey of a rodent for Eagle vs. non-Eagle badges. We never tell a boy to focus on one or the other. If all a kid wants to do is earn electives, fine by us.

Even in the OP's case, I see room for a mature SPL to handle discipline. It would be along the lines of: "The 1st years are intimidated by you guys because you seem dead set on making their lives miserable. What gives?" [Hollow explanation by perpetrators follows.] "Here's the deal. You are turning those cans of bug spray in to me. I will secure them until such a time as you are deemed trustworthy for their use. You are inviting the 1st years to this table now and apologizing for being jerks. We are going to let them know that they are our brothers and we want to be kind and courteous to one another. If any of you want to stick to your right to pick on newbies, I'm sure the SM is available for an impromptu conference!" Shortly thereafter, the SPL reports his actions to the SM.

D, I'm saying there is a baselilne general personality difference between a man and a woman That, my friend, is a pre-judgement. You are taking what we all have experienced in a general "baseline" sense and declaring it as justification for disqualifying a particular individual. There's no good-old-boys network. We ... promote the all-male environment. A rose by any other name ... Your insisting that you don't need a 5th wheel (of any sex) is an indication that you're content with the lock you all have on things. And I can't blame you. New ASMs can be divisive and getting them up to speed is a real hassle. But not even making the effort runs the risk of missing the opportunity to nurture a person in the methods as you've laid them out. We never miss the spare tire until we hit a nail 60 miles from home, do we? Stosh, They haven't tossed me yet for such antics, although I'm waiting for the day. Of course, venturing age youth are at the point where they need to learn to "talk straight" to a number of adults of both sexes. I'm learning that boys figure they can approach different dads and moms about different topics, so a little diversity is likely more help than harm.

D, Thinking about your stance a little bit more, it seems you have several issues that need disentangled: 1. Your prejudgment that sex differences adversely impacts a youth's upbringing in a scouting environment. For example you don't think you'd be as good a leader of young women as another woman. Well, I can speak to my experience as a crew advisor that the girls in our community have their choice of units with different leaders. A few of them feel strongly that "I'm the guy." I don't think they're mistaken. For other young women, my co-advisor is "the gal." I don't think they're mistaken. 2. The good-old-boys network that you four guys have built. I'm not being negative here. You all have probably worked out a lot of kinks. Probably one of the biggest hassles is coaching an adult in how to serve a boy-lead troop. A newbie means one more set of kinks to iron out. On the other hand, if your troop isn't hurting for that kind of leadership, your district probably is. And, the only way I have ever seen anybody really "get it" is by having them camp with us and pointing out the long list of things they need to stop worrying about. 3. Being pushed around by the CO. This can indeed make or brake you all. If the church is generally a good group to work with, don't walk away from that. Only on rare occasion is the grass greener. I was just talking to a young adult who was reflecting on how he got in the wrong "spin-off" from our troop. He feels that was the main reason he only stayed in scouts for a few years. You don't want Any of he boys to miss out on a great program over divisiveness among adults. And maybe the CO sees something in this woman that you don't, yet. That's just one of the things a church does: call people to service -- sometimes in the oddest places. Now if the CO is foisting this woman on you to make a politically correct move, if they don't like your boy-led mantra, and if they've been overrun by micro-managers who want to control your every move, it may be time to serve scouting elsewhere. But your best chance of getting beyond any of that is welcoming the lady, getting her around a campfire, and being open and honest about your real concerns.

Who better to teach that then a good man? The best teacher. And that is very hard to determine without a trivial run. If y'all have pitched camp 300' from the boys, I sincerely doubt your gender will impede their growth. Our experience with moms in camp has been largely positive. But we haven't had a mom asking to be ASM either. We've never had a problem with too many ASMs. There's always room for one more.

Appeal. The most significant question in your case is why didn't you hold a position with your troop (or crew, if you were in one)?

OG, How dare you propose that "Reference" be part of your teaching method! Don't you know that our boys are being taught that skill acquisition begins with someone explaining it to them? If it's any consolation, at the venturing level, the line is "research the following references ...", or "call this expert ..." (who might actually live down the street from the kid). You'd be surprised how many youth set aside pursuit of an award for because I hold them to that step! Now, I'm the first one to say I don't like the cost of the MB pamphlets. But, if the boy or his folks haven't made it an issue, then that's not the issue here. Complacency is. Stick to your guns. Most boys have never taken oral exams. (You know, like the ones in that show Room 222.) So this is a big step for them, maybe the first time they've done something like this. Encourage them that sometime in life, someone is going to need them to have read the manual before class -- be it college or job training.* Then, make an appointment for the next available time after the boy has read the book! *Heck, most everything I know about fishing was from reading magazines first then asking someone how to make it actually work.

I think one of the challenges is to show parents that they have opportunity to offer something truly unique. It's not that sweeping floors is bad, but what youth really need from adults is their knowledge and experience. I had a boy corner me at the last meeting wanting to discuss Eagle projects at length. If I was busy doing what any boy could do, I would not have been available to him to serve as the sounding board he needed. Let those parents know they may be losing sight of where they may be really needed. Tell them that stepping back and observing helps a lot. One of my crew dads told me he would just sit back and observe the entire trip, by day two he had the boys out in the bay and was teaching them everything he knew about kayaking. His daughters weren't interested because they had "been there, done that", but those boys will be greatful forever. Now if that dad was preoccupied with lighting fires and sweeping tables, would he have found his niche? Also, teaching parents "with your permission Mr. SPL, may I...?" goes a long way.

The natural progression is to grow where folks tell you you fit in, and then settle where you figure you can serve the best. I found one challenge (more in Boy Scouts than cubs) was setting aside my vision of things from the troop I grew up in and adopting the vision of the troop my son lands in. That's a few years down the road for you, so just enjoy your children now and pitch in on whatever tasks are at hand. I would suggest that you get to know the Boy Scouts and Venturers in your community. (Some of them make good babysitters when they aren't on the trails!). You'll meet a few at Pack meetings and maybe cub camp. Look up their fundraiser was etc... Ask them what they like about their Troop/Crew, what they look forward to doing, etc ... If they were cubs, ask them what they liked best about their pack. Over time, this will give you a good idea of where you might want to serve.

E - You mean someone had been picking up for their cubs indoors? Wonder if DS's parent had been doing that all these years. There is no reason, starting at age 6, that cubs can't be responsible for clean-up at their den and pack meetings. That includes sweeping and mopping, if necessary. You might need parents to follow-up, and make sure things are polished. but clean-up is part of the activity (as I say to the Mrs. when she gardens 'till she drops and I'm roaming around the next day finding tools left out in the rain)! Of course I caught a couple of boys in my crew feeding my co-advisor the line that they didn't know how to slice green peppers. They actually got her to start "demonstrating"!!!

What dg98 said minus the troop van and adult leader training ... but we will reimburse SM or whoever pulls the trailer. We provide volunteer drivers instructions for getting reimbursement for fuel, but since most of us would be driving someplace on the weekend anyway, we don't bother. We also stock up on incidentals, but that usually comes from camping fees (which average $12).

Three years in and the BOR is acting as if it is untrained? There's more here than meets the eye! I think in this framework the UC should point out to the adults that a disagreement between SM and BOR of this magnitude indicates different philosophies that need to be hashed out. Then leave the room maybe leaving behind the date and time of the next training! The SM and CC and share their interpretations of the advancement guide without your intervention. Don't sweat the CoH. Not every award has to be handed out then. SM can encourage folks to offer a follow-up BOR sooner than scheduled, and the rank awarded at the following troop meeting.

Spaghetti Diner fundraiser.. brought in 1200 but the Troop funds got 180 while the scouts got over 1000.. *grins I had no idea they did this 'work hours' thing. I knew about ticket sales as that was mentioned plus that is how my son's troop did it too. The work hours was a whole new thing that wasn't mentioned until after the Spaghetti Dinner. I like the idea as it gives the scout money toward their summer camp but at the same time how does the Troop funds grow? It's like my troop has an evil twin! Except, we don't compute the hourly rate in advance. SM gives the committee a budget for the upcoming year and Treasurer estimates how much the general fund needs to maintain that budget with a "small cushion". After paying dinner expenses, ticket commission, and the general fund, we divide the remaining funds raised by total shifts worked and allocate to scout accounts.

These are the type of decisions that need to be balanced with the calorie needs of the adventure. A mile away from home without strenuous activity = lesson via tough love. A high adventure where carb+protien-loading could make the difference in completing that last strenuous mile = cruel and unusual.

If I were the SM, I'd like the UC meet with the committee and provide a crash course in BOR! Especially the 5 month thing. If the issue is an unkempt shed, do they really want to wait 5 months for it to get cleaned? If they want to stick to their guns, IMHO, they should provide two adults who are willing to assist the boy over the next few weekends.

If this is a first-time offense, have a scoutmaster conference with them and explain that Scouting is a place where people feel welcome and equal. If your SPL is mature, have him sit in on the discussion. Gently bring up the incident. Ask them if anyone did something like that to them when they were new to the troop. Apologize to them if that happened, but point out that this type of imitation is not flattering! Affirm that you have heard them promise to live up to the scout law, and one point of that law is "kind." Point out where you have seen them be kind in the life of the troop. Tell that you expect them to just as kind kind to new members. That means suppressing the desire to have fun by handing down a few "bad memories". You might also want to point out that it's not thrifty to use insect repellant as mace. (Using mace offensively is not particularly thrifty either!) Tell them you might understand how they would not have thought that this was a problem. But now that they know it is unacceptable, the "obedient" point of the law comes in to play, and you expect them to hold to that. Scouts that have a repeated problem with that point may be brought before the committee to determine if their lack of discipline merits suspension or loss of membership.

DS, Worse is I'm trying to do both the Committee Chair and Scoutmaster. Yep. That about sums it up. You need to split your personalities ... The SM-self needs to sit with the boys and work with them on formulating a list of equipment that they will need for the upcoming year. There are checklists in the handbook, etc ... You may want to use index cards or post-its so that they can prioritize and split things into personal/troop gear. Determine what on that list needs to be travel-ready and what might just need to be used for local events like your fundraiser. Make plans with the boys to have a Quatermaster's day that will end with a decent campfire and meal someplace near your meeting place. If they conclude they need less than a 3-ton trailer to move stuff around for this year. Report that to your CC-self. CC-self then talks to equipment chair thanking him for his hard work, and ask him to think about what will save more money: a 5year out-of-state registration for a trailer you might not haul until your troop triples in size, or a primer paint job with numbers stenciled by the boys while they work on painting merit badge. Ask him to pull the other parents together and discuss how important it is to for the troop to advertize themselves with a big trailer and how soon this trailer really needs to be roadworthy. You can be honest about how you're a little concerned about the ethics of the whole thing, and about making the boys more responsible stewards of their gear. But, the bigger picture is coaching the guy into bouncing these ideas off of the rest of the committee and CO so that everybody feels like they have an honest stake in the troop. Lets face it, you're going to half to find someone to replace CC-self soon, and this guy might be it! P.S. - EA's story about the unchained wood-chipper happened in my district. It got thrown off its hitch onto a minivan that was following just behind and downhill from it. The wife lost her entire family, and the driver lost his career and I think is serving time for negligence (as well as a lifetime of remorse).

Good luck! You have your daughter,that's a start. Spring is prime time for recruiting venturers. Does your council have a VOA? A word or two from other seasoned venturers would go a long way itoward inspiring your daughter and her friends.

total bafflement of where ideas come Actually, young George Washington acquired his land holdings by registering deeds with whatever colony was convenient -- and, no doubt least expensive -- to process the title. (E.g., a title in W.Pa. could be drawn up in the colony of Maine.)