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Boils down to this: Do the scouts have the skills? Why we make it more complicated than that stupefies me.

The new vision for Venturing uses youth-led adventures and a simplified program model to provide a means of developing leadership skills, reinforcing the value of service to others, and creating opportunities for personal growth in line with the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Read http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...ouncement.aspx Vote. Discuss.

Old farts (often the fellas who've raised $$$ for scouting) write this stuff off on their tax returns.

Venturers can start at age 14 (or whenever they complete 8th grade) and age out at 21. It's a shame that the program is still foreign to cub leaders and parents. I didn't know about it until son #1 (then a wolf scout) and I talked to a camp staff about her program. (I had mistakenly used the term Explorer.) The program was quite new then, but we seem to be in the same situation today.

There are some funds set aside for the youth member's travel. I forget how they are acquired, it's not exactly popcorn.

I know of two youth in my crew who darn well better be sexually active. They've been married for a year! Otherwise, I make it clear that virginity is to be held in high esteem. But, I do believe that there's room for grace. More importantly, I ask youth to understand what their religion says about the matter, and live accordingly.

KDD, right you are. This is a problem. Tagging along with the troop is inappropriate. Sure, you can host a family camping weekend or two, but I think it has the potential to just remind a girl that "she's not one of us." Until the young lady can actually be part of a patrol, and follow the tracks that we've laid out for the boys, we're just playing a "separate-but-equal" game poorly. But, if my boys and the adults in the Troop had been willing to get over their hang-ups to welcome my daughter into the big woods -- even if POR's and rank advancement was not in the offering, I would have jumped on the chance just like BD did. As it stands, last night I was explaining the patrol method to a 19 year-old lady who could have experienced it first-hand.

I agree with Stosh. In fact my troop has as little interest in camporees as the crew does, so these big events where lots of adults are around to see how we operate when we're at the same place at the same time are few. But even before we had the crew, the older scouts, including SPL, were off doing their own thing (e.g., conditioning for Philmont, with our approval) during the day. We might see them at camp in the evening, then they'd break camp and be gone before daybreak! Only difference now, is folks who don't like it have green shirts to blame it on! But, I see it as a good thing. It makes the crew officers plan ahead and not only think about how they will have their own kind of fun, but how they will serve and support the younger units.

This breaks my heart on so many levels, I can't stand it. My wife and I endured a similar disheartening experience with our daughter. There were only a couple GS troop's who camped, and they were full! (Or they thought they were. I've never seen a BSA unit where there wasn't room for one more.) Our solution: 1. camp with the kids on family vacations, and 2. send them to a church camp which included a pool, a paddock, several field sports areas and lots of folks singing 'bout Jesus. In both of those situations we usually partnered with another family we knew who had kids our age. Other things to consider: Campfire USA. Turns out my aunt is one of the oldest living Campfire girls, and her experience with them as a child in the depression era (camping under canvas all summer) is part of what motivated me to become a crew advisor. American Heritage Girls: looks good on paper, very BSA-like (a little more Jesus than your average pack, but reports from non-Christian participants are coming back generally positive.) I do hope you can push your GS troop a little. It will be good for all of those girls. But of you're getting push-back, it may be time to find something that meets the goals you have for your daughter.

I routinely take it upon myself, in these kinds of events, to herd SPLs back to their troop. But do keep in mind that even without venturing, SPLs and senior scouts often will find chances to stand off from the troop. Keep in mind that sometimes the SM finds opportunities for older boys to serve elsewhere so the younger ones begin to rely on themselves. That star scout, if he did well, now has something he can campaign on for the next SPL election. When my crew and troop plan joint activities, I ask them to think about their various leadership responsibilities and determine how their time will be divided. I would encourage the parent to ask the SM if he understood what was going on ahead of time, and what he inks about it.

A large portion of my community is college bound, and I have yet to have a youth or parent come to me enthused about getting a medal for all of this. I've only met one youth who was in a ship and a couple of crews (at the same time), and the guy just loved earning medals! But, I don't think he did either program for the purpose of awards. (The cool uniforms, maybe.) Just like in Troops, youth get sick of participating if their folks are making it all about the awards. They don't get sick of a unit that accomplishes stuff like activities and cool service projects. So, I pitch program more than awards. Simply put, I did not have the skills or connections to promote nautical activities, so starting crew was the most sensible thing for me to do. Now if I had a committee member come to me and say, "I have a slip on the river, and have acquired a sternwheeler..."

We've discussed this before. Many churches see VBS as a form of community service. Most of the families served are not members of the church. If you consider that religious education (of a personal nature) is prohibitively expensive for many Christian families -- even seemingly affluent ones, and the volunteer youth model seems to work well, then the boy's service makes sense. If on the other hand, the "outreach" is seen as just another religious exercise, then maybe the service aspect is not so relevant. (Although, there's nothing to say that religious devotion and community service are mutually exclusive.) More important than what we think, the MBC should ask the boy how he thinks his service (whatever it is) benefits the community. Obviously, if you're the MBC, walk him through this. If not, tell him to talk to the MBC along those lines.

One of my comments seems to have been misplaced. But, regarding your last question about SPL "management". It's okay to come clean with him and say you're just learning the position together with him. When I was SPL (many decades ago), parents would ask me if I could make sure their son learned X, Y, or Z, and I considered it a huge honor that they thought so highly of me. You just have to work at making a distinction between imperatives, requests, and strong suggestions. To help, get to know other SM's ASAP. Attend roundtables, find out who's going to camp when you are, and maybe let the camp director know this is your first time in this position and guidance/ help would be appreciated. (For example, he might assign your troop a more experienced site guide to help with set-up and getting your troop checked in.)

BD. Sounds like your talking about the venturing program. (Awards and recognition instead of advancement.) The one youth in my crew who actually pursued a bronze award was thrilled to be able to do the equivalent work of obtaining Star rank without the hassle of collecting badges along the way. I've kept venturing awards strictly voluntary. Only one in 40 venturers have taken up the challenge. And my crew still holds together. But ... I may not be seeing the numbers that other crews see because, since we don't have a culture of mostly everyone pushing through the gauntlet, my program doesn't have the structure that other crews provide. Only the self-starters get the awards in my crew. The rest get a pat on the back when they step up and lead something. That's satisfying for some, pointless for others. I could see the problem being even a little worse if applied to Jr. High kids.

"... 15 minutes with some rope a couple of times a week ... " You just nailed it. The skill that's hard to master is the one that the boy *will not take time* to practice. The infamous "pull-up" requirement: 1% of kids might have a real physical disability that impedes their improvement. The other 99% do not devote every day for a month to find a bar, reach up, grab it, and attempt to bend their arms. Swim tests: 1% kids who can't pass it may have a medical impairment, the other 99% never had training and practice. Fire: everyone wants to light matches. Nobody wants to gather kindling and tinder in the right proportions. Orienteering: most boys want you to point them to the trail-head and tell them what color marker to follow. Few will request the map the week before, study it, and come ready with turn-by-turn directions. True, there are some things, like stuff-sacks where the only solution is to get big. Most everything else is a matter of putting in the practice time. As long as your boy keeps that up, he will do well. Oh, and when it comes to getting votes: grub-master is about as responsible a position as it gets. I think you are going to have a fun time watching him and his buddies grow.

Yes, very important activities like playing online games,breaking the axles on their 4WD, working to pay for the next game system, guitar, threads for the school dance, fuel-injection system, bling for the girlfriend, etc ... I'm sorry, but the HS kids who I see making Eagle are the ones who are very active in church and band/sports, make high marks in school, attend the occasional dance or two, and maybe even pick up a nice girlfriend along the way. They show up at meetings, and call in when they can't make it. Even when they turn 18, are taking intensive college classes, pulling double-shifts at work, or maybe even married, they apologize for not coming around very often! So, although I don't believe in making a gung-ho 12 y.o. kid (emphasis on *kid* not parent thereof) wait out some bureaucratic clock, I do believe that a lot of the Life/Eagle requirements are intended for 15-17 year old boys whose lives may be very full. (E.g., Family-Life, Personal Management, Personal Fitness, and Lifesaving start to take on real adult meanings.) A boy has no less chance of making Eagle in High School than he does in Jr. High. In fact, by High School they boy has made a lot of connections that my inspire his choices in MB's, leadership training, and service projects.

I see you only returned the thimbles. Must mean you're gonna have them make compasses with the needles.

It falls under what the boys want. Many boys love to return from excursions to the same campfire as the rest of the troop. Our scout camp (http://heritagereservation.org/) offers day-trek programs that older boys can opt into. In fact, that seems to satisfy most boy's "itch."

CnM, it's that whole Catholic thing. JP's gotta judge something. (Sorry JP, but you did come off a bit harsh.) I will take obese, chain-smoking volunteers any day. Yes, I will nag them to lay of the cigs and red meat. (More because I need the encouragement as well, and because it really stinks to leave your kid at the trail head.) But at the end of the day there's a lot they offer the program. That said, I have no idea about xtra big and tall pants.

KDD, very simply: a first class scout is qualified to take his patrol hiking and camping. So, if a boy can tie a clove-hitch when asked, he gets that requirement. If he's comfortable enough to navigate his patrol through you're troops usual haunts, he gets that requirement. I know those tents seem unwieldy now, but he'll be snapping them up in no time. The other stuff (including positions of responsibility) will also come naturally. Oh, and there is a difference in swimming for enjoyment, and swimming for races. Most MBCs have to actually "slow the racers down" so they can relax and perfect those strokes. Then they catch on fairly quickly. I suspect your boy will knock this one out with no problem. Trust me, before you know it, he'll be borrowing the car to take his college buddies for weekends in the wild lands.

I wouldn't drop a scout from the chart on account of their parents. I would demand that leaders get with the program. In fact, I told my crew committee to never meet in the absence of the Crew president. They haven't met for years, we muddle through. (Some folks here have the SPL sit on the troop committee. I have yet to meet an SPL who has the time and the patience for another meeting!)

KDD, you're talking about a truly rare scout. Bottom line (and this goes for adults too): the respect goes to the person who does their job. Last month we made it clear to the boys (most working on Star, Life, Eagle) that we don't care how long you've had a POR patch on your sleeve. If you've done no work, you haven't held the position. Period. Conversely, if you don't have a patch on your sleeve, but you've done 4-6 months of work making the troop run successfully we will make sure your POR is properly signed off, in spite of what bean-counting detractors say. We've instructed our committee, when the sit on BOR's to ask "What did you do as ?" So, start preparing for your BOR now by doing what needs to be done. Don't know where the topic is, but at one point my CC got word that a MBC had misgivings about signing a blue card for a boy who was coming to Eagle "under the line". The CC called the boy telling him he was refusing to sign the eagle app. The boy calls me about appeals. (File under why-I-hate-cell-phones.) I ask him the question "Did you complete the requirements?" .... Silence ... then "No." I reply "Well, then let's stop discussing one medal. You have lots to be proud of in your scouting career." Get your key adults on the same page. Keep them there. It will work out.

My SMs (two consecutive ones over a period of years) were drawing fire because boys weren't advancing according to someone's timetable. (Over this time I had seen boys quit because of the unending emphasis on requirements. And those new-fangled trail-to-first-class courses produce boys who were no more competent.) What I ultimately did when SM #2 got this issue thrown in his face ... I made it very clear in a committee meeting: 1. that we (SMs and ASMs) were not doing 1st class 1st year. 2. that 1st class skills were to be demonstrated to a PL, not an SM or ASM or any camp staff, for sign-off. 3. that not every boy was going to advance 1 rank per year. In fact most would go through a period of staying at the same rank for a couple of years, and that would be fine. 4. advancement chair's troop-master was a back-up for a boy's book, not the other way around. 5. that we were going to have the same through-put of Eagles as always. 6. (this was more via body language) that NOBODY was going to yank the SM's chain on this EVER. We want him to feel good about every boy who comes to him for a conference. The CC fell in line no problem. The advancement chair continues to do a great service to the boys. The boys are pretty good at teaching and evaluating skills. Obtaining Eagle is really no harder than it used to be. Moms still have to suffer procrastinating boys. We're courteous and patient with the poor ladies. We tell them that if their boy fall's short, we'll still love him. Fallout? We lost a few members and this might have been one of the straws. We've not gotten cross-overs for two years. We have had older boy's friends or younger brothers join but not in the numbers we'd like. But, we sure are having a whole lot of fun without feeling like we're on a treadmill.

Good luck with that. I just tried to PM you and got blocked!

Yep DS. It's best you do this as a district service -- not as a member of the pack. From the outset, it in your interest to have someone in the pack assist you (for example procure your classroom, bring refreshments, push paperwork, etc ...), and that person would take more of a role the next time the pack needs instruction. That person would be your pack trainer, even if for now he/she is basically your gopher. (You know ... go fer this, go fer that.) That way you make it clear that your doing this as part of what needs to be don in terms of commissioner service with an eye towards the pack standing on its own.