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6t, The requirement becomes superfluous if you open every den meeting with a flag ceremony. So, forget the book, just raise colors until it is second nature and new boys pick it up automatically. This is not a trivial request because it has downstream repercussions. My observation of venturing crews throughout my area is that they are weak on flag protocol. (Yes NER-A4, I'm calling you out. At summit, we had an awesome set-up and plenty of talent, but nobody organized a color guard!) Part of it, I think, is my boys in the troop take it for granted and the non-troop youth are a little embarrassed that they don't know it. Anyway it's something that I'm working on starting last week (when I made my president and vp-admin open with the pledge before placing flags graveside). My point: you are preparing your boys (and maybe their sisters) for the day they'll lead their community in just a few short years, so drill, Drill, DRILL!

Oh jeepers, I love the responses in both threads. If you could move the replies there to here, that would make you a really super moderator. Otherwise, let's leave things as they are.

Thanks sr540b! I had no clue this one took and was humming away. You are a super moderator!

I first tried to post this in I & P and got one of those server errors. Then I tried in Program, still errors. Then I closed my browser, flushed cookies, restarted, and retyped my post here. (I forgot that my clipboard would be flushed.) So, here it stuck! And seriously, this is not I & P. We already have some pretty good threads on that. This is about how people really are talking to youth about this issue, and how it is playing out in various "necks of the woods." They general advice is good, for now, and I plan to incorporate it. But, hopefully we will get some good vignettes of in-the-field stuff. (Assuming the server accepts their posts )

Brew, although very true, I'm not entirely sure a home-school kid would get that. (Although most who I've talked to seem to have a better grasp of public opinion than you would expect.) We adults make compromises pretty routinely. So, yes, that would definitely be a key point in, say, a scouter-to-parent discussion.

Thanks 2C, That's my plan. I'm generally of a conservative ilk, so I guess my friend thinks this kid wouldn't feel like I was trying to foist an unwanted agenda on him. I had a crew member talk to me about this issue last month, but I don't think he was planning on making a move. So, I have the talking points down if I need them, I think. Just posting here in case someone beats me to the next conversation and has something worth my borrowing.

Because gay youth are allowed in. But, if you're dealing with a youth who objects for the other reason, it might help us to hear about it.

A dear friend came to me about a scout (age 17, on track for Eagle) who wants to quit the BSA because of the new membership policy. I offered to meet with the boy. If it transpires, I'll let you know what happens. If you've had to handle a situation like this (youth of any age or sex), how did you do it? Results?

I was kinda hoping I wasn't the first to post along this line, but it has to be someone ... A dear friend approached me about a scout (age 17, on track for Eagle) who now wants to leave the BSA because of the changes in membership policy. I made myself available to talk to the boy. Being of the conservative ilk, I figured I could share with him (as I have with members of my crew who asked) why I'm not making plans to leave the BSA. If the meeting actually transpires, I'll let you know. In the meantime, I thought I would open a thread for anyone else who is now dealing with this. If you are now facing youth (of any age or sex) who have strong objections like this, how are you handling it?

If you're tryin' to tell me I can't trust Christians as far as I can throw 'em, I'm with you on that one! For that and other reasons, I intentionally steered my kids away from pledge campaigns. Abstinence vows in the context of evangelical Christianity is an abstract ideal at best, a diabolical hypocrisy at worst. Keep in mind that the birth rate disparity by state may be partially offset by abortion rates. But the availability and reliability of the latter is questionable. So we may be talking about a values choice. Also note that your CDC reference indicates that the most stable marriages are the ones where first birth was 8+ months after marriage. Now, it may be that those are all folks who use condoms until the license is signed, but logic dictates that this group is comprised of all of those who did not initiate sexual activity until after marriage. Abstinence (irregardless of religion) remains the "cleanest" strategy. It is also seems to be the hardest to implement -- especially among protestants. So sure, the "discipline of latex" is a necessary fallback, and it is possible to build "safety nets" (e.g. HPC vaccine) that take up some slack. Maybe it is easier to promote that. However; ease of use, in itself, is not what defines the morality of a particular choice.

I'll speak plainly: It is a crying shame that cubs do not have a tradition of handing down uniform pants as soon as they outgrow them. If you see this as a real need, talk to your bishop. Sure, methods of scouting are just methods, but there's a point at which boys want to look sharp (even if they fuss at you over finding their pants). It may not be important to your small group of boys because they have probably only experienced den or pack life, but when they get a taste of a camporee or summer camp, it may matter to one of them. (In fact, you can think of the full uniform as a way of getting a taste of being part of something nation-wide.) I bet if it is mentioned from the pulpit that blue pants should not sit in the back of closets going to waste, you will have a half dozen pairs -- half of which will most likely fit -- at your disposal that week. Now I'm one of those guys who is perfectly fine with a cub being out of uniform (or halfway in, however you choose to look at it) and saluting the flag. I point out to my boy scouts when they are out of uniform, but I still hold them responsible to accomplish whatever is on the roster. They understand that I am merely stating a fact -- and not throwing attitude. However, if YOU feel like you're catching attitude for it, quoting old farts like us won't solve the problem. Getting your boys to look sharp and be proud will. Can they do that in jeans? I think so. But should they have to? Probably not.

I'll speak plainly: It is a crying shame that cubs do not have a tradition of handing down uniform pants as soon as they outgrow them. If you see this as a real need, talk to your bishop. Sure, methods of scouting are just methods, but there's a point at which boys want to look sharp (even if they fuss at you over it). It may not be important to your small group of boys because they have probably only experienced den or pack life, but when they get a taste of a camporee or summer camp, it may matter to one of them. (In fact, you can think of the full uniform as a way of getting a taste of being part of something nation-wide.) I bet if it is mentioned from the pulpit that blue pants should not sit in the back of a closet going to waste, you will have a half dozen pairs half of which will most likely fit at your disposal that week. Now I'm one of those guys who is perfectly fine with a cub being out of uniform (or halfway in, however you choose to look at it) and saluting the flag. I point out to my scouts when they are out of uniform, but I still hold them responsible to accomplish whatever is on the roster. but if YOU feel like you're catching attitude for it, quoting old farts like us won't solve the problem. Getting your boys to look sharp and be proud will. Can they do that in jeans? I think so. But should they have to? Probably not.

From another thread, I came up with an example of WB's indirect benefit. A scouter was trying to micromanage my youth's menu. (If you ever ate any of this young lady's cooking, you would realize how absurd that sounded to me.) After listening (just like my WB class told me) I told her as politely as I could to back off. Her husband, having completed WB a few years earlier, told her that I was doing the right thing, and to let the youth-led menu play out. So, I'm giving it props for securing me the best supper at that camporee! Guess y'all now know the way to my heart.

Richard, It sounds like you made the right choice. (Listening to the Mrs. is generally the right choice.) If you're coming home grumbling about adults instead of talking up kids, it's a bad sign. Regarding the SPL and the committee, one of the better ways to deal with the planning issue is to have him fill out a tour plan and highlight the stuff he needs from adults. (Review of the meal plan is NOT one of those things! I had a CC try to do that "for" my crew, and I shut her down quickly. Fortunately her husband called on his Wood Badge experience and backed me up.) That's sort of why I don't like the online system. It deprives the youth of doing the work. Still, the way the CC should have handled it, was "Thanks for the info, let us know how we can help you." or "We'll assign one adult to make sure your paperwork for this will pass muster with Council HQ. Who would you prefer?" But, this is one of the problems of a lack of training: the group thinks every detail is everyone's responsibility. There's a lot you can do behind the scenes. One of them is nudging your troop's best adults to training. The other, as a Pack leader, is go directly to the SPL and SM to request den chiefs. I'm sure you'll think of others.

Some posts work fine, some seem to require logging out and back in and pasting the message. But, I keep trying to reply to the "Troop and crew conflict thread," but it keeps giving me an "empty response" error!

The ranger did not divulge name or unit #. I'd like to think he'd inform the advisor. He's the kinda guy that will confront us if our unit does something wrong, although that usually involves the boys not replenishing the woodpile for the next weekend. (Actually, we love going to that camp for that reason.) Fact is, how much any one of us has to deal with this depends on the age of the youth, the attitudes of the parents, and the culture in which they surround themselves. Kids who don't like someone like me appearing out of the dark at some completely unexpected time prepared to have a friendly chat until they tuck in don't roll with my crew. The ones who expect me to be asleep and unwakeable in my tent (when I even bother to pitch one) an hour later are severely disappointed. Truth be told, this has more to do with my interest in astronomy, nocturnal wildlife, and bladder function than any mistrust of my co-eds. But, it works for that purpose.

Advisors: Afternoon naps. Wake at 17:00. On the prowl at 23:00. Sleep 02:00-04:00! Seriously. Dating is cool. Fornication is not. Venturing is no cheap date, and my youth get that. (In fact, son #1 has carried that attitude through college, and even on the trail with his fiance this spring, made sure they went with buddies.) Talking to some rangers, I know that other crews are not as strict. (Including LNT failures regarding condoms.) And, like you said KDD, we adults can't police everything. We can be a little more intrusive than giving a couple the keys to a '57 Chevy!

Your definition of "insuring" clean is betrayed by the many folks I know who we're brought in on a busted rubber! Orthodox Chrisitian teaching also puts sex as a gift from God. "Be fruitful and multiply" was our first command. Original sin does not involve sex. It has to do with the human inclination to disdain what God has given and instead lust after what God has yet to give. There's no agenda in pushing abstinence until marriage. It leads to safest sex, healthiest families, more responsible fathers, stable economies in indigent areas. (It did tick off 18th century sailors who Charles Darwin heard complaining that, thanks to missionaries, they could no longer exploit Polynesian women "for love nor money.") All that said, I have never suggested that any sexually active youth I knew be removed from scouting. We do want youth being up-front with their parents about these things. If that's happening, then I'll save my "Clash of Orthodoxies" lectures until a youth asks my opinion on these matters. Otherwise, I'm just a guy hiking you into bear country.

First, thanks for your service to these boys. Second, you are in an impossible situation. I would stop worrying about achievements, and start focusing on skills. Literally, sit down with the boys and ask them what they want to do next month. Start a collection? Make toys? Play catch? Write a play/ puppet show? Arm wrestling? If these happen to help a boy achieve, fine. If not, the boys will love you for helping them accomplish something they'd always wanted to try. Leave achievement up to the parents. If they don't want to contribute to the life of the pack, or even to their boys growth, then fine. Don't give a boy what he doesn't deserve. Just let him know that he can still earn the next rank and it's time for him to start now that he's moved up.

The membership stats are very telling. If our council is any indication, in about 2005 the register was "padded" with units who had no intention of using BSA materials. Shortly thereafter, we hit a "bust" cycle where those same units dropped off the map. I guess in the proposed rubric, they were all about one of those pillars, but not all four. I've met SMs who were asked to be crew advisors said yes and then gave up because it took time away from a troop that needed a lot of work to keep from being helicopter parented. It was a formula for flash-in-the-pan crews. I'd like to see a decade of slower growth of more solid units with COs that have a solid vision for how this meshes with the rest of their program. Maybe this roadmap will help. I just don't know.

Don't fool yourself 2c, if they won't participate in person, chances are they'll ignore you online as well. This is from experience with a Venturing Officers Association which tried web-hosting its meetings this year.

I don't envy challenges facing you as a single dad. I know how much work it is to earn moms' trust when their HS girls want to join my crew. Sometimes there is just nothing you can do. (And I have a seasoned GS mom as a co-advisor.) One boy in my crew had fond memories of IG, so I think I'd look into it if I were in your position. If a couple of GS mom's are willing to step out and form a troop that emphasizes the out-of-doors, I would encourage you to step forward. Let them know that your success depends on them, and try to plan a couple weekends under canvas in the next six months.

Actually, I think I'll pitch this to my church (who look to be parting ways with the PC/USA over similar issues). The downside of the BSA was the lack of program for young girls. A cohesive, parallel program for both sexes will has a lot of appeal. ... Thanks for the link H67! ... What's really interesting: they are not explicitly excluding homosexual youth. Be neat to see how that plays out.

Two reasons: 1. Light a fire under your butt to meet some goals for you and your unit in the next year or so. My ticket was not earh-shattering, but it helped me set the tone for other things I was trying to accomplish. 2. Meet other leaders in your area, and get to know them far better than the limited time at camporees and roundtables would allow. This paid off for my crew because one December, they wanted to go backpacking, and I needed a female adult. I had met another advisor who was not intimidated by snow and she had a couple of youth who wanted to join us. Our course doled our some pretty nice swag, and I have used some of the materials with my youth, so it wasn't all misery. There was also instruction on a lot of items we discussed in recent posts (remote fire starters, uniforms, advancement, what is venturing, team development, non-sectarianism, etc ...). Would I have liked to harm more wood and watched fewer videos in the process? Sure. But me and the other old Crows got a lot out of it.

I think you wrote it down twelve times, but let me jus point out four ... Trustworthy: can be trusted not to gawk after someone else's spouse. If ya ain't wed to it, it ain't yours. Loyal: faithful to own spouse. You don't know who that is until the knot's tied. .... Clean: comports oneself in a disease free manner. Thinks in a way that doesn't demean sex. Reverent: approaches sexuality as a gift from the creator, to be used in accordance with religious conviction.