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DW, if you cuss. You secure my contentment at National's dismissal of your claims. For the other folks that may be in your predicament. I'm just a guy in the trenches. Just thinking about the depiction of events: .... At one point, the BSA attorney asked me about "God". ... I said that I was confused by his question and I needed to know the official BSA definition of "God" that he was applying, .... I saw the plaintiff attorneys wake up just then, though sadly too late. I also saw the BSA defendent attorney back-pedal furiously to get himself out of that quagmire .... Again ... He said, "God is whatever you say it is." So, knowing something about some non-theistic religious traditions, I offered an idea. "No, that's not it. But God is whatever you say it is." So I offered another well-considered idea and he again responded with, "No, that's not it either. But God is whatever you say it is." After a few more iterations of this nonsense, I stated, "Well, obviously my own ideas are 'God' are not the same as yours." at which point he terminated the conversation, obviously satisfied that he had gotten what he had wanted. I gotta, say. It sounds like asking a kangaroo, "Can you do something about this kick-me sign?" There is nothing but pain in that line of inquiry. Here's what I've garnered from what little BSA training I've had. Their definition DOES NOT MATTER. An attempt to lead a plaintiff to leverage a relativistic-argument DOES NOT MATTER. What matters is if when asked, one can say they are living a life answerable to God. The asker may not understand the breadth of that as well as the person being asked does -- or maybe it's the other way around. But, the choice of that word allows for that kind of latitude. At least what I've been taught through BSA's instruction on the matter, is that a person's willingness to say they are doing that is all I need to know. Then again, all that was in the context of taking care of youth -- not in the context of selecting adult leaders. I don't think the folks who would take action to reject an adult leader are on this forum, so a straight answer as to how things are being done now (or iff there is any method to the madness) is not forthcoming. Although Khaleila's testimony indicates that at least at the council or area levels, there are lines drawn in the sand.

You've just gone to great lengths to say that "God" probably does not mean to you what it means to me. Well, take a number. I did not ask if you believe in the definition that Christians have attributed to a very ancient word to great effect. What's wrong with just speaking English at face value? If your assertion is that you revere something more elevated than anything else in the universe of things to revere, it seems you've arrived at the end of an ontological proof for God.

Sounds like a good plan. Especially since your patrols are letters and not numbers. (My rant to my troop: "Dens have numbers, patrols don't.") Was bullying an issue before? Or was it a hypothetical? (Or something in between. Sometimes you can look at a cluster of boys and think "Oh, this is not gonna turn out good." Happened to me on the bus ride home last night.)

Stosh -- even the church I attend (which should know better because of it's Scottish roots, and more recent history with the pain of "untouchable" funds sitting idle) got in the habit of "holding over" funds for a particular annual youth activity. I had no idea until I took charge, income and expense report to the treasurer, and she asked "what about the $400 from last year?" Some elders forgot (or came on never knowing) how to read budget and finance reports. I made it clear, that unless our activity was in the budget, we should have $0. It took me explaining that I knew our youth leaders were afraid of a something nice activity for the ministry because of budget constraints before a light bulb came one and folks thought "Oh, we could have let them run with that 1/2 K!" If they chartered a unit, they would have been perfectly happy never knowing it's finances unless someone like me asked why the unit account was not listed as an asset on the annual report. I'm sure most other churches are the same way. Thus we wind up pulling stunts like this! BD.. you don't have a bone in this fight ... definitely have the CC talk to the parents and try to give them a vision for how much the boy will need for what all he's said he wants to do in his scouting career. He should it clear that your boys are using those funds in stewardship for the troop. (I know a lot of you don't see it this way, but every boy who makes it to camp is doing a service for the troop. Try a week at camp when a bunch of them aren't there. Or look at how down they get when one decides to go home early.) Have him point out that if they use his funds for their fees now, there is a strong expectation that they will put their shoulders to the wheel for the next fundraiser(s), and over the years they will have built the troops' coffers up enough to front an entire Philmont contingent. Will they listen? Probably not. But if y'all don't deliver the message, you don't stand a chance.

I was not asking for a definition. I was asking about your stance. Let me rephrase: Do you have a duty to God?

Yep. It's down again. Hold that thought until this round of server failure passes.

So this is a pack event? I'd be more inclined to accept the family pooling all resources together to go. I would try to get into their heads that you find this unusual and that those ISA funds now won't be available for other things they boy may want (e.g., new uniform, gear after crossover, etc ...), but leave it as their call. (Again, if the CC or Treasure should take this communication on for you. You have bigger fish to fry with camp coming up.) It would be nice if these are the kinds of parents who are there for the entire pack when they are there, but sometimes you don't know that until you have boots on the ground.

BD, in your position, I'd have the CC or treasurer ask the boy if he's okay with paying for his mom/dad out of his account. Make sure the boy knows how much will be left over in the account for his other activities. One time we had a Seabase trip with limited spots and too many parents wanting to fill them. We required all parents who wanted to participate to take IOLS. That thinned the herd.

My read is that the alternative requirement is for boys who have been active in the troop for the required time, but PORs weren't available to him. So ask yourself, has this boy been of some good (about six months worth) to the troop as a star scout? If yes, then any of the above are worth the time suggesting. If the boy just showed up today after being absent since his last board of review, you should offer to help him work to finish out a life scout with a legit POR for the duration.

JP, happens all the time to me as well. But, I'd tell the T2FC scout "excuse me one moment while I give your SPL/PL a refresher course." Then I tell the older scout to abandon that EDGE method, get with the younger scout and his book and the both of them learn together by my tried-and-true referential learning method. Nobody is off the hook because of a lapse of memory.

ASM = ASSIST the SM, not second-guess everything. But obviously this guy is in helicopter mode and telling him that won't help you. Rather, say "Any boy who feels this isn't working out for him can ask for a SM conference and we can see what we can do to make it work better. The next round of reassignments, if any, will be up to the SPL." Fact is, your boys are so young (mostly) that nobody has any idea how they will pan out in the long term. By 8th grade, the "serious" boy may switch to "fun" and vice-versa.

I'd steer clear of animal figures for cubs because someone's gonna make a fuss. Plus shooting a ton of arrows just for one target to bust is a recipe for chaos. Can I suggest balloons stuffed with a few pieces of wrapped candy (tootsie rolls or taffy work best)? Slide them into the balloon, inflate, string or tape to the target. The boys get the gratification of a "pop" and when they retrieve their arrows get their candy.

Agreed. We had a boy fall short of Eagle for skimping precisely on this sort of thing. It was really hard on the MBC, who was close to him and really wanted him to make it. The rest of us (including the youth) agreed that this reflected a pattern of trying to jump hoops as opposed to reflecting on the experience. It just so happened that the badges with the daily tracking requirements are often where all the corner cutting comes to a head.

I remember when we had to sum up an election to the committee: "It looks like the boys elected the most popular, not the most competent, SPL." Hopefully your boys will make a thoughtful decision. I would suggest you touch base with each candidate and have them prepare election speeches -- a few words discussing why they would like to be SPL and how they'd like to help the troop. Make it clear, that if they aren't committed to being at meetings every week and touching base with you before/after/outside meetings (every SM does it differently) they shouldn't run. I think if the older boy gets it, you won't have to make too many adjustments. Your patrol leaders will still have to work very hard. And everybody will have to be accountable for when they can't make it to meetings or can't prepare as well as they should. The PL's will find themselves taking up a little slack. They might resent the work load, but when they blow smoke, you or the ASM can just remind them that they can run for the office six months from now. If the younger boy gets it, he should still be assigned a patrol and answer to his PL for some things (like gaining 1st class skills). In his leadership role, he will be more of a coordinator and less of a mentor. (He may be able to clock more time than the older boy, so he may be able to call each PL during the week and he may show up with a completed duty roster or program plan, but he won't be able to guide some of the older scouts.) Regardless of who becomes "the man." Make sure for all his hard work, you have some kind of officer's privilege (our SPL rides shotgun in the vehicle of his choosing and I usually have a stash of candy-coated almonds -- his favorite -- reserved for him). Thanks for keeping us posted.

So, you do believe in God?

Just had another blip this morning. Yep, I'm a junkie.

Awesome. When you get back, please post some thoughts (yours or the boys) on the trip under "Camping and High Adventure"?

I made roughly the same comment about Jehovah's Witnesses once, and a friend replied "How dare you demean one of the greatest heresies of Christendom!

Did it include his budget? Was each expense explained? Did you ask about any unusual patterns? For example, when son #1 went over this with his MBC, she noticed that his spending dropped off after a particular week. He couldn't quite figure it out until he realized that was the week his girlfriend dumped him! Life lesson learned. So it's not about the data entry, it's about if the boy gave you enough for the two of you to be insightful about managing his money.

The tradition seems to be popular in our neck of the woods; however, we adults never do the corner tearing. We may have the boy (once the wound is patched) report to his PL or SPL to discuss the matter. It's up to the youth leader to decide how to deal with it. Long before crises like this, we give our 1st class scouts general guidelines on how to issue "negative reinforcement" ... sort of along these lines: The point of any negative reinforcement is to impose a pattern of forethought on an otherwise entrenched action. So, in general: 1. Think about if the scout has been showing a pattern of carelessness and needs a reminder. 2.a. If there's a pattern, apply negative reinforcement (in this case, cut a corner) by explaining what needs to change, telling him that you think he can change, and hoping that this is the last time you need to address this. 2.b. If there's no pattern, ask him if he understood what went wrong. Can he explain how he will do things differently? If he does this, negative reinforcement is unnecessary and would probably be ineffective. 3. Let the boy know that you are always available to help him improve his skills. Be humble, maybe by saying "It wouldn't hurt me to practice that with you too!" I haven't heard of any scouts getting their Totin Chip torn for years. Neither has son #2 (just asked him). The kids who've injured themselves have generally fallen under 2b and never repeated their actions. Their nicked finger was sufficient negative reinforcement.

Pardon me for not answering your question. Do SMs have far reaching authority? Well a lot of my youth are older and are my FB friends. I call them on every cuss word and abbreviation thereof. Some were indignant until I pointed out that they have every right to call me on cussing as well.

Welcome to the forums! Hope you keep coming back to set us old farts straight! SM's kids have it tough. But, stupid happens quickly (as you just found out), and he's just trying to get you to slow it down a little. On the bright side, he left you one corner. So, read the card again make a mental note of which points you ignored, then don't do those, and you'll probably never have to worry about it again.

I've never been able to get PMs to work on this new system. Stinks.

The kid's reverence stone-ward isn't sad. That someone thinks we should boot him from scouting because the rock is not *their kind of* supreme being ... that's sad. Given the rapid sophistication of the Zombie in pop-culture over the past few decades, let's just extrapolate and count your jab as veneration!

Forget telling us about yourself ... what about that locomotive in your picture? What's it's guage, HP, years of service? Which lines does it run? Was it steam or diesel? Are you riding it to Jambo?