qwazse

Nice poll. Wonder how many venturers will think they are venture scouts.

Here's a question: If a boy leaves scouting, does he loose his membership in O/A? (Considering some of the machinations of our soon-to-be-former chartered organizations, this may be relevant to more than venturers.) If instead of multiple registration, a boy transfers to a crew (like E441 was thinking of doing, but maybe we'll talk him out of it ) does he get to retain his membership? Y'all get where I'm going with this.

Not sure why FCFY's tend not to run for OA. Maybe because there are so few of them in our troop and they see those older boys running after they took 4 years to get to FC, and that intimidates them. One boy, who I thought would have made a great candidate quit scouting to devote more time to his video games (really!) so he never came to camp that 2nd year. Our troop is larger than yours and has kids with behavioral disorders. Actually, many of those boys later tell me that the troop (along with junior ROTC) was the solution to those problems. Not getting elected for the 3rd time in a row was definitely the wake-up-call one boy needed. From then on, any foul comment from him I would reply "And you wonder why ...?" No need to fill in the blank, he knew exactly what I meant. You should dive into some of our old patrol method threads to see all the different ways these cliques are handled. We must have met the same immature Eagle scout, several times over! There are always exceptions to the rules. But, I've seen a lot of crews besides my own in the past six years, and I gotta say there are very few who aren't already boy scouts who would meet criteria for arrowmen. So our question boils down to a very small number. That in itself isn't a reason to maintain the current policy. It just gives us a feel of the magnitude of the problem. Why not make the adult leader's choice the only requirement? I think it's a matter of pride among the OA advisors that their youth are elected by a wide range of their peers. Nobody will buy into a double standard. So there will have to be a way that a venturer can get that "360 evaluation" that the average 1st class scout gets when he comes up for election.

For venturing, did you try this: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Venturing.aspx Then look up all the crew advisors from your woodbadge class and give them a call.

skeptic, there's some kind of wannabe Puritan uprising going on in that council. K, I like your son's decision. Honestly, I would just tell his buddy to pray something from his heart using his own words. Just like what he might do for grace or bedtime. That's what Baden Powell would have done.

E441: You and my previous crew president! She said "Venture just doesn't sound right and why couldn't they have chosen something that slips of the tongue easier?" It's all about branding. Which matters to a lot of people. Not so much to others. (For example, the person who labeled pics from Jambo on BSA's Flickr stream used "Venture Scout".) In terms of who I will be climbing and rappelling with on Saturday? It won't matter an ounce. As long as they're on when I need belayed, I'll be happy. BP, no koolaid. I'm just trying to give us a view from behind Wayne's desk and why he would form a task force to act! I'm not suggesting that any of the actions will result in a change in membership trajectory.

It's a big country and "what venturers want" is very diverse. But, there are some trends ... The most striking one is they don't want to stick around. For the past 7 years, venturing membership has been the fastest declining division of the BSA. Very few of crews buy awards, which is a good sign that thy are not earning them. Many of them aren't heavily invested in the venturing oath and code. It's just not pounded in their heads. Clearly, if they aren't earning their gold awards, there is no real need for them to bother with the oath and code. There are troop members who think venturers don't belong anywhere near them. Most of these are adults. It stinks. Those of us who are in the game for all youth involved are sick of it. So, say you have a nation-wide shrinking business, in one of your divisions customers are walking out the door faster than the other, and the ones that stick around aren't buying what you have to offer. Customers in another division complain that the few costumers in the fastest shrinking division are making your product less enjoyable to them. Of the 10 things that you could change about the company, turns out that you only have the ability to change 2. What would you do?

Rick First, it's six feet. Secondly, have you ever seen bridge height signs? That's the height to the BOTTOM of the bridge (the space a vehicle has to pass under it).

And here's the other dirty little secret about venturing (that I really wish weren't true). The only venturers who are highly experienced and more mature, were the ones who are also boy scouts and about half of those who are also girl scouts. For a lot of them, we are making up for lost ground.

The Good Book tells me that the Almighty chooses the weak to confound the wise. Go figure.

Well, in our troop very few scouts make 1st class until they are moving into high school. Most of our FYFC's (first year, first class) don't run. It's 15 camping days which, you're right, does tend to favor Jr. High kids with a more flexible schedule. High-school boys with only same-school peers for a constituency, have not get elected in our troop. Jr. High boys who disrespect older boys and boys who aren't in their "special clique" have not got elected. The boys who command the respect same-age AND different-age peers, they get elected.

I'm not an active arrowman, so my opinion is strictly from what I see in the youth in my troop. It's nice to see young people keep bantering this about. The point of your argument is that it is entirely possible that a venturer, without being in a troop, can: 1. display tremendous scout spirit (vouched for by his/her advisor), 2. be a first-class scout even though he/she hasn't obtained that rank, 3. have done lots of camping with his/her unit and under the auspices of the BSA. Therefore, what would make them any different than the current youth membership? There's only one thing that I can think of: who gets to vote them in? I don't know if you've experienced any boys not getting elected, but it is a trying time for them. Why? Because it is real easy for a boy and his same-aged buddies to pat him on the back and he thinks he's doing scouting honorably. His SM may think so too, but then we older farts are 300 ft away and need our beauty sleep -- so sometimes we miss a little. Well (and this is especially true if you have your elections at summer camp, like we do), guess who the largest voting block in an average troop is? 11-12 year-olds! And trust me, they don't pull their punches! More than once, I've seen a scout who is neglecting the young ones not get elected. Venturing deprives a youth of the critical evaluation of that peer group. The vote from a crew would only tell me how a candidate is seen among his high-school and college buddies. The lodge wants to know what the Jr. High kids think of him/her!

Our crew welcomes youth-leaders from other troops. Shoot, I have one from another state on my roster! From the troop side, we'd rather a youth stay on both rosters, even if it means we won't see him around as much. One of the boys in my troop was in a crew a few miles north of us. For him, it was an opportunity to take what he learned in one place and apply it to the other. All I'm saying is don't rule out the "both-and" option. I saw your post in OA, I have a few ideas you haven't considered. I'll try to cobble a reply for you later.

Welcome! Nice to have someone willing and able to set us all straight! Keep diving in and serving where you best can. Not sure why you would hold back on joining a crew based on your election to SPL. My crew officers take on SPL/ASPL from time to time, when that happens I just remind other venturers that they have to step, but if they don't that's cool -- we'll just do fewer activities. Even when they aren't in a position of responsibility in the crew, the SPL's often like a weekend or two when they don't have to be top dog. But I guess that depends on the attitude of your advisor and your SM and your lodge chief!

It was recommended to me by another crew advisor who I met at an Area Venturing Officer's Association meeting. At the time I was getting a lot of cross-talk of how things were to be done between my crew and my troop. I've been asked to open meetings with prayer a lot. I don't think it was because I always matched the religion of the folks who asked me. I'd like to think it was because the folks knew I had the best interests of everyone present at heart. And honestly, love makes up for a whole lot of unorthodoxy. So if there's someone like that who, although likely to step on some of your "hot buttons", you feel has their heart in the right place, ask them. If not, I like s99's advice. Hold it someplace where sacred cows aren't offended.

Yes, Rick, they would do that. And, yes Stosh, I'm pretty sure sure these fellas knew the flag code well enough to make accommodation for weather, age and gender. They were directing their attention to adult males (especially the immigrants, who as far as I could tell were glad to oblige). Son #1 might of been old enough to pass for an adult, but since he did the respectful thing without being asked, I suppose we'll never know. Geez folks, it's not like they were carrying batons and pepper spray!

Yep. Son #2 was ASPL and he and SPL performed as expected at camp this year. We had an older group of guys, so there weren't too many hiccups. But since thenI have been getting reports from their church and school youth leaders (different schools, different churches) about how hard-working yet nurturing both boys were in various different environments. Now that I think about it, same sort of thing happened with Son #1 (although he was never SPL or PL, he was crew president). Outside of scouting folks would come up to me and say "he gets stuff done."

It really depends on what you and your people make of it. And really, what matters is what it sounds like to the folks in the cheap seats! If I were a new parent, I would think that "pack overnighter" was for me and my son and "family camp" was for me, my wife, son, daughter ... maybe the dog and crazy old uncle Joe! But, not everyone thinks like me, so no matter what you call it, your announcement needs to be specific about who should and who may attend.

Beyond happy meals ... one could estimate the number of plaster casts. Given a nationwide incidence of .2% per year (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2856220/), treating all 10 day periods as equal, divide that by 36, multiply by 30,000 and you'd have at least 20 kids break a bone. Assuming that Jambo would be the peak activity time for youth, we could expect about 600 fractures - estimating on the high side. So 40 would be quite reasonable. 800 would be higher than the national average. But, then again, very few kids in the country go to skate parks.

All of our population statistics have been 25% inflated. We are actually talking about an event with 30,000 youth and adult leaders. That'd only be about 26,000 happy meals assuming that they probably wouldn't let you order them for your 19+y.o. venturers.

By the way, VLST is a pretty significant course because the mental framework needed to handle the program is completely different from cubs or boy scouts. The more folks who understand the program, the better. The folks at the Legion probably have some background in scouting, but unless these are fairly young vets, it's unlikely they've experienced venturing. Also for your personal sanity, Meeting other advisors regularly is critical. They will confirm that you're crazy, but they'll also help you know if you're doing things right.

First, thanks for all your hard word on behalf of your youth. Second, you're in for a wild ride. Throw the gauntlet down with your DE. Say "my people will be available for X hours on the . Send us a trainer, and well jump through your hoops". Hopefully it will be the same day as VLST. If not, ask your people if any of them can make the Charter training. If not, punt. JTE is filled out by your crew president. If you can be humble enough to apologize to him/her and ask her forgiveness for costing them a couple hundred points, you're done. Warning, if your DE does take up the gauntlet, it's good form to provide snacks for the trainer.

I think scouting does engender the level of respect for military personnel that most enlisted folks would like to see. They don't want youth holding them up on a pedestal, but they do want to be understood and respected for what they are doing for their country. I remember watching one parade in a AnySmallTown USA, my host told me to make sure my son knew to take of his hat as the vets came down leading the parade with the flag; otherwise, a member who walks down the sidewalk beside the color-guard will chastise him for being disrespectful. I told my host "After all of the training in scouts, that boy will have more than the veterans to worry about if he doesn't already know how to behave." Sure enough, he followed protocol and took his hat off at the appropriate time. My host is now a cubmaster for his son's pack. I'm pretty sure that the prospect of his boys bestowing appropriate military honor was a selling point.

Here's a thought ... I think honor expresses itself in groups. That's why I push youth to "put themselves out there". This is one of the prime distinctions between my ventures who come in from a troop environment, and the rest (i.e., some girl scouts, and boys and girls who were never in scouting). In a troop it is taken for granted that you will hold a position of responsibility (not talking about patches here, talking about a job that everyone expects of you), and you will put some effort into it and nobody is going to take any excuses from you, and you are not going to make any excuses for your self. If you fail, you apologize - not quit - and we move forward. If you haven't got that when you were 11-13, then you face a tremendous fear of failure when, at 14, I hand you your application and say "fill this out, don't make your mom or dad do anything except sign the bottom and read the fine print with you. Bring it back next meeting, and I'll make sure you're legit." Then the next meeting, my VP program comes up and says, "Hey, I saw your eyes light up when we mentioned canoeing. Do you want to help us pick some dates, make some calls, and set it up?" You know what? It doesn't matter if it happens at their first meeting or their 12th, that challenge to their honor for the benefit of the group is huge. So much so, that I have seen youth quit before even trying. That's not a complete tragedy, they usually find honor in something else. (It's really tough on the advisor's ego when they do! ) So, IMHO, the honor is something you have long before you "sign on" (be it in pen, or with an oath). It's your very essence. When you set up any expectations for yourself (again, words are superfluous here), you call on that honor. When you meet those expectations you reveal it. When you don't, your honor is squashed and you become less than the person the Almighty intends you to be. When you ask forgiveness, you "come to yourself" (as the prodigal did) and that honor gets restored -- sometimes to levels greater than those around you may think you deserve. It's all part of the great human drama. We're just asking our scouts to be very intentional about letting that drama play out!