qwazse

Bring us back to why we should like the BSA (or not) ... "First reason why: Fruits of the Spirit (FotS) explicitly only applies to Christians. In the USA, only about 73-76% of the population self-identifies as Christian. So in the classroom, FotS would only apply to three-quarters of the students. What about the other 25%? You'd have to tell them that it doesn't apply to them, since they're not Christian. You would effectively be telling them that those ideals are not for them So what are you tell them to aspire to?" Putting aside how many Christians actually have a clue about the Fruit of the Spirit (let alone it's context or that it is singular) and that it may possibly apply to them as they build their communities (a much smaller figure than DW's generous count above) .... There are probably far fewer people who have said the Scout Law even once. Certainly not most women (not even our Venturers, yet). So, much less than 50%. How popular does an institution have to be before it becomes part of of an American school student's lexicon? I've heard the occasional public speaker refer to it. Membership statistics aside, has it become a bit of a national Icon? So much so, that if the institution continues its decline, will it be an inexorable part of our history books? Or is it just a blip on the radar of progress?

What you call anger, I'll take as a sincere attempt to save us from ourselves. Anyway, after making that snarky remark about "Sunday reading" I log off to go to church, and what chapter of the Bible is the preacher covering today? Yep, Ephesian's 5! So DW is simply doing God's work preparing me to receive his word today. For that I owe him thanks. Anyone who thinks otherwise can take it up with the Holy Spirit!

Thanks for the Sunday reading. Do zealots take things out of context? Yes. Am I a zealot? I don't think so. I have some vague familiarity with the law and Pauline epistles. In the passage you quote Paul is not excluding the pagans of his day from anything. Rather, he is dissuading folks from "playing the Jew" in hopes that a simple surgery will make them right with God. Or, that it would somehow make them a better Christians than those who aren't Jewish enough. Those many divisions you speak of were fomenting before Paul even started dictating his letters. But, your desire to put tremendous theological weight on the chapter blinds you to the overarching theme, that is "Y'all are reading my letter 'cause you believed Jesus payed a hefty price for you. Now why can't y'all be nice? Who's gonna complain about that?" It is NOT saying that non-Christians can't be nice. That's a liberal reading of the passage. And yes, my fundamentalist friends often don't like it when I accuse them of taking liberties with scripture.

Oh, I get the whole manipulative boys who were trained by manipulative parents thing. There's a balance between discouraging those types, and crushing someone who wades through 22 pages of workbook and misses a step on page 17! (Granted, council approval is mentioned in the BSHB, but what does that really mean to a 17y.o. who has never been to a roundtable?)

Winds ... it had to be winds ... It doesn't take much to "up the game". You and an ASM a could chaperon a patrol to some camping area or farm with maybe some good fishing nearby. You and your buddy could drop them off and then set up on the opposite side of the field. Put that out there to your son's PL. Don't use any of those "boy-led", "patrol method", "counts for advancement" buzzwords. Just give him a "Hey, you've been such a help to my son, I'd like to give you a chance to do something you can brag about to the rest of the troop. Why don't you float it by the SM?"

T2E, the counter-reformation is a grand part of that tradition. I'm sure some of the church board members think it's their turn to bring it about again! SMW, don't write off those travelling pastors. By virtue of their having moved around a lot, they can bring a truly catholic perspective to the picture. This summer, at an Eagle court of honor, I met one of the priests of a local Catholic CO. He was from Vietnam and had some unique scouting experiences as a child. I hope the troop will give him more opportunities to share in their program. The point is that for some people, you have to say "I talked to Father ___ and Bishop ___, about this very thing, and we're going a long with his suggestions." On one level, it's stupid. You and your committee have are smart people, and should be able to say that you all thought about it, and whatever policy you came up with made the most sense based on the teachings of the Church. (It's not like they are locked in a closet someplace.) But, some people won't regard your decision until a holy man is involved.

To avoid seeming like cannibals, some also punctuate well. Let's eat, Grandma!

"EDGE is a teaching skill, but if the boy only teaches because he gains advancement, what's the big deal?" Resist. Resist. Resist. Can't do it ... EDGE undermines servant leadership from step 1. Explain. This presumes that you have something someone else can't get any other way. Now, that does happen from time to time. (For example for some fundamental process, you may come up with an English acronym that nobody else knows of and your Korean scout can't figure out!) In terms of scout skills, that simply isn't the case. Servant leadership says, "Let's find a common reference. Do you have your book?" and works from there. It encourages a person to believe that skill attainment is in the learner's own hand[book]s. It promises community with a wider body than just the teacher and student. When that community falls short (perhaps because the student doesn't read well or the publisher confounded the material -- at least for this individual), it offers the more intimate fellowship to step through the reference together. The first step to using the advancement program for the purposes of develop servant leadership is to abandon EDGE and provide your boys with the teaching method that lifted the West out of the Dark Ages.

I think, stosh, what's happening is that more venturers are actually getting involved with their summer camps. Those that express interest see how the OA does a bang-up job of giving back to their camps, and they want to be part of that. Or they are Arrowmen who know a guy or gal and are thinking "This is great, why can't they be here too?"

Easy E441, dhendron paid good money for that VLST course. He has to get his money's worth! Venturers (who were never were officially "venture scouts," and were once-upon-a-time Explorers more interested in outdoor stuff than career exploration) want to be respected for who they are. What that means varies widely. Some (like evidently the ones you met) want to be in OA, others want to be trusted to help serve other BSA units, others don't want boy scouts demeaning the awards they earn, others want to be treated as a different program and don't want anything "scout" associated with them. We adults really do have a tough time figuring it out. Venture patrols, that was easy. I think it was E92 who explained that they were what in our day was called "Leadership Corps". As soon as he did, I got it. We were the older boys in a troop who hopped in a car, found a site, did a service project, camped, cooked some insanely good food, caved, and came back and reported to the SM with a whole list of activities and program for the troop. Sometimes the SM tagged along. It's just an internal name that a troop can use to distinguish those boys. Who knows how many there are, really? But since patrols aren't supposed to overnight without an adult anymore, they are just rogue scouts. I sure do hope there are lots of them!

Like Paul said in the next sentence "Against such things there is no law." By implication every law is for such things. Reading the Bible so straightforwardly, however, might come as a disappointment to many "true Christians," who somehow got it into their heads (and DW's) that the concept is exclusive to their religion.

Let's hear it for district reps who take the BS out of the BSA!

Advancement just starts the first level of servant leadership ... 1. Learn to tie knots. Get a signature in a book. 2. Make sure everyone in your patrol can tie knots. 3. See somebody who is having trouble tying knots, show them how. 4. Walk around with a rope in your pocket, approach a stranger and say, "Hey check out this knot." 5. See something that needs built/repaired with knots, get your "knotty disciples" to build/fix it. ... x. Make the world a better place using your obsession with knots.

Some grandpas in our neighborhood are gonna be stoked as well. Got two this weekend. Your grandson's project sounds like something I wished one of our boys would have done. The park he fixed up was nice, but a little removed from his talents and interests.

I find that terribly disrespectful. I too was a member of a Catholic Troop that had the very same requirements; my boys and I are no longer members of that unit. We joined a Methodist Troop that respects our religious differences. There isn't anyone on the planet who hasn't heard the "good news," this means that if someone isn't Christian (or Catholic) it's because they choose not be. Our current SM is Catholic; he also left the Catholic Troop because he didn't like the policy of forcing religion on to others (He had this crazy idea that people were given free will for the purpose of allowing them to exercise it and that included freedom to choose a religious preface.) Bottom line: You may end up running off your catholic membership as well as your non-Catholic membership. K. I've found a few "unreached" on the planet. Some of them in the pew next to me! Be that as it may, I find coerced invitations counter to the spirit of the gospel. I had a Jewish friend take this issue up with his Catholic CO. They asked him to just drive the boys to mass, and he and any boys who didn't want to attend could wait outside or run errands and come back.

Yep, one or two on this forum have typed a harsh word in the heat of the moment. It might have exargerrated how badly you felt at the moment, but hopefully the replies it generates will be of use to some scouts and scouters down the road. Venturing is a heady brew. So is a week with a solid patrol-method troop. It's easy to lose patience with folks who don't have that vision. Learning how to be a little less blunt is an ongoing skill. And practicing "I'm sorry" and "I was wrong" is tough. (It got easier once I got married, but if I were you, I'd just practice in a mirror for a few more years.) Establishing who is eligible to vote is a very important part of parliamentary procedure. Your troop might need to think about that. A problem like that is certainly something our troop committee would want to hear about from any board of review of a fellow going up for his palm.

Sounds like a sinister plot to me.

One more thing to consider ... some of us don't think SPL's are necessary until a troop has 4 or more patrols to coordinate. So, if we're right, you were effectively running for a position your troop didn't need. Your platform seemed to be making stronger patrols, which might just as simply be done by NOBODY being SPL and ASPL! Then the PLs and APLs would have to put forth real effort to keep the troop running. (E.g., they might have to rotate leading the meeting, set-up, and closing.) If that is true, then if, because of tradition, everyone is insisting that there be SPL/ASPL then you only want figureheads in those positions so that the PLs step it up and do what needs to be done to make your troop strong.

In our general interest crew, some really good neighbors ... Sportsman's Club Owner/NRA Range Safety Officer Ex-Military Officer/Climbing Enthusiast Roofer/Climbing Enthusiast Mom who teaches the girls backpacking hygiene. Cub/boy-scout moms willing to camp with us (even though their kids aren't venturers). Coffee shop owner. (Sure, I make can espresso anywhere, but I ain't accomodating each venturer's favorite mocha-java-mango-vanilla-latte.) Historic cemetery CEO with 2400 military grave markers. (Gives us a district-wide service project to manage some evening before Memorial day.) Mom who hunts for gear at garage-sales. Dad with five kayaks. Property owners near really nice trails!

Well, you lose some, and then you lose some. That smarts, but once you get beyond the discouragement, you need to relax and think about what didn't appeal to the younger boys. Personnally, I think a 6 minute speech would have turned me off! But here are some things that I've seen to be off-putting in other boys ... Incessant practical jokes. Cussing and off color jokes. Obsession with the opposite sex. Lack of troop pride. Only shakes some boys' hands before meeting starts. Chances are you can come up with one or two others that may or may not apply. Then you need to decide if you need to work on any of them. Then pick one, and try to polish that rough edge a little. This has nothing to do with running again, it has to do with milking an experience for all it's worth. As for wrapping up those badges, that's a great plan! Rack up a palm or two. Then as you pick your crew (sounds like you have a good one in mind) look to work on your Ranger Award. In the process you will be a great help to your troop and crew and be on your way to that NOA award.

Think of it this way: once the boys complete this hike, would you be comfortable with them doing the same thing on their own in any other environment you all hike in throughout the year? Personally, I know I can get lost using a map with street names ... I know how to "get found," and it usually relies on my ability to find north and orient the map. So there is some method to your madness.

I can't imagine SM minding you stepping in on this. (Especially if parents are giving him cross-talk.) I've unilaterally altered hike plans when I realized the PLC wanted to wrap it up after 3 miles while the youngn's wanted (and were fit) to hike at least twice that. SM and ASMs didn't balk (I knew they wouldn't, unless there was a serious issue that I hadn't considered.) My line: "When you get home, you can cry to Momma that Mr. Q made you hike the whole afternoon and kept you from idling away at camp. Let me know what she says."

And ... none of them have to run for O/A. Make it very clear to the BOYS that it should not count for their camping nights. Don't explain it to them. Have them REFER to THE BOOK. List their campouts. Cross off any that don't match the requirements. Make it clear that their list is on their honor. *Reference* the first step in learning any scout skill -- including tracking advancement. And yes, as IH, you have the right to do that because your people are paying for the roof and the lights. Make it clear that you are perfectly fine with them not having a program that gives a boy a fair chance at 15 legitimate camping nights every two years, but you are not fine with calling chicken tracks eagle feathers.

Your best strategy for roundtables: always bring someone from your committee along. That way there is overlap in case you miss something. Moreover, there's someone on the ride home who can help you sift through any ideas that were bantered about. Yes, BALOO for an Eagle really is flagellation with a wet noodle. Thanks for your service, and enjoy those outings with your son.

I think "first book" was intended instead of "first chapter". And that's part of what Genesis offers ... That no matter how incredible God may be, Man is equally incredible, "imperfect" has become too polite of a term. Man breaks covenants, destroys relationships, kills then boasts about it, gets rescued from calamity then curses his sons while drunk, builds absurd monuments to his greatness, sneaks around, negotiates compromises, assaults angels, or while being rescued by angles disdains their advice, builds absurd patriarchies that drive females to acts against their own bodies. In short, Man is not a scout. The book ends with The People being subsumed into a great and noble culture (through the mercy of a once cast-off son). Most likely they will become one more glyph on some Egyptian monument. Then in the next book, God comes along and says, "Have I got a deal for you ..."