qwazse

You are not thinking like many young teens who now have jobs, the earnings from which are expected to pay for activities. If their patrols can’t go shooting at their trained ASM/RSO’s club every month, they can spend their dimes joining the club as junior members from what they save on Scouting America registration fees. You might say only a small number of COs and families will let their scouts be so reactionary … just like families who react to the removal of dodge ball, or the removal of unisex program, … It becomes a decline by a thousand cuts. If a troop wants to maintain routine range time it could result in merely exchanging hazards For us the nearest commercial range is at least a half hour drive away (and I think this applies to most scouts) … twice as far as the nearest game lands or gun club, we double the risk of traffic accidents.

BSA can follow a pretty wide lane and be “in line” as far as WOSM is concerned. The largest or fastest-growing WOSM programs have been sex-segregated. In many of these countries the Guides and Scouts collaborate nicely. So, to really fall in line, BSA and GS/USA would “play nice” together, and that ain’t happening. I think we in the U.S. are faced with an influx of citizens like no other country, and many parents from Europe and South America may envision scouting as co-ed because that’s all they’ve known since childhood. On the other hand parents from India, Indonesia, and Gulf states only know segregated models. For some, but not all, national scout organizations, that’s shifting. (It was nice to see young women singing and dancing while visiting with the Saudi tent in August.) I think single moms are a serious consideration, but many single moms that I’ve met are looking for unisex programs for their boys where they believe male role models to be instrumental in a young man’s development. So those moms will value sex-segregated programs over co-ed. So, any mom rhetoric is just corporate double-speak. The ground truth, I believe, is that the organization has collapsed to the point that it is unreasonable for it to produce an all-boy and all-girl unit in every small community; therefore, it is positioning itself to allow each unit to be more flexible in its configuration in hope that doing so may make up for six decades of losses three decades from now.

I gave up referencing myself a while ago, so I won’t link to the thread that shows this data, but here goes anyway … while BSA was mulling over including girls in packs and troops (under the corporate double-speak “family scouting”), there was a WOSM census that revealed that membership declined in nearly every European country immediately after their scouting organization incorporated girls. Recovery to where they would have the same number of boys as they did before desegregation would take decades, if it has occurred yet at all. The UK took 25 years. So, if BSA is indeed about serving more youth, the strategy chosen is a very long term one — quite an anomaly for any American organization.

🙄 = on paper only

To acquire Venturers in any significant number, the registration fee will have to be less than the cost of a pizza and a movie. While we’re rumoring, scuttle but says there are co-Ed troops being piloted. But even on an informal basis this is happening. I was manning a station at spring Camporee and saw several patrols of mixed sexes. One or two may have bee ad hoc, but a couple operated well enough that I figured they weren’t segregated OPO.

I was thinking that, but Scouting America is no less of a trademark threat.

My take is that it needs a tagline: (Except for Canada, Mexico, Central and South America) No clue why we can’t be Scouts USA.

Ben Shapiro’s take …

Did you winter backpack? We always used our “circus tent” (actually a donation from the national guard) for winter campouts. It was the best way to keep an eye on younger scouts for hypothermia and frostbite. General health and safety might have also been your leaders’ concern.

It wasn’t a mandate. It’s been a matter of course for decades. And, it would even be in place if international youth events were all-male. Public health officials’ deployed this strategy to forestall death. Prior to the 90s, the occasional newborn was always possible but didn’t mandate preventative measures.

@captkeating, welcome to the forums.

There are a number of helps for this sort of thing. Unfortunately, I can't point you to them! The site https://troopresources.scouting.org/ is undergoing an upgrade due out this month. However, it's not too hard to leaf through the handbook and ask the scouts to pick a chapter to work on for the next coming month. Usuallly after summer camp the scouts' advancement starts to diverge, then the PLC's are about asking what is the skill that most boys in their patrol need to master, and how would they like adults to help with that. DON'T focus on advancement per se. DO focus on skills to master.

I’ll go one further: integrating the local community is the only way forward. There are hundreds of ways to do this. Waiting for National’s next marketing campaign is the least effective.

I don’t exactly. (Plus it was an English translation of the page that I think was originally written by youth. So a lot may have been lost in translation and generationally. ) My impression was that the girls’ organization wasn’t playing well with other scout associations, and the king, having been a scout himself, served as a neutral party with authority. Also, the Swedish scouters who I’ve met were relatively young, and not historians. So their description of their scout movement was limited to their generation. I myself was too immature to strike up a conversation with Carl Gustav, let alone probe him on what it took for he and his fellow citizens to inspire a co-ed scouting organization. Lesson: if you have elders in your family or friends who were scouts, now is the time to interview them on their childhood and young adult experiences.

One trick with PLC: instead of one lengthy meeting a month, consider reserving 15 minutes after the regular troop meetings. This basically gives boys just enough time for after action review and time to plan the next event. Not great, but if it increases attendance you’ll have double your time in terms of man-hours attendance.

Understatement … Scouterna’s site used to be packed with a lot more details on its front page. It seems like a marketing agency got a hold of it and fell for Western “don’t let words get in the way of great pictures” style. From the original site, I learned that integration was contentious, and the king was instrumental in getting all parties on board. It made me feel proud to have launched a catapult for Carl Gustav when he visited the pioneering area at National Jamboree.

In another thread, someone criticized me for being okay with scouters and other adults speaking their mind to my youth. That got translated into allowing “hostile” acts — even though the topic was clearly discussing speech that did not involve any physical threat. Some repliesasserted that its somehow wise to shield a kid from someone who could teach a him/her how to forestall death, but has voiced problems with their membership. Youth have a word for situational ethics: duplicity.

Interesting point spinning off from JTE. How much should the PLC be invested in those benchmarks?

I would go lean on the advancement statistics. You can give that at each CoH. IMHO, the most important thing a committee needs to know regarding advancement is how much is being spent on patches and awards. how many BoRs were completed and thanking MC's who devoted time to this. how many BoRs might be needed in the coming month. how many MBCs are fielded by the troop, and which MBs need a counselor in your district. Try to listen intently to your PLC for ideas they float that may need committee assistance. These could be properties to camp on, special equipment, or a presentation or visit to a workplace or charity. MC's might have "in" on any of these. But if the wish list doesn't reach them, they might never know to offer. So, although gear budgets are very important, the more esoteric wishes are what will hold your committee's attention.

@mrjohns2, we validated you, now what do we propose for a solution? One of my strategies: offer to cook an adult-only meal. This assumes you know how to cook one very fine meal very well. But, usually when adults know that they’re getting a meal where they won’t have listen to kids complain, they’ll pitch in. Other ideas: Camp physically distant from the youth. Attend Camporees and require that the SM visit all of the other troops. Get your SM to training. Attend a summer camp that does patrol cooking. It takes quite a while to unlearn bad habits. So encourage her every time she takes a step back.

This is argument ad absurdum. In my years as an advisor I didn’t care how people felt about my venturers. (And some voiced fairly negative opinions.) I expected my youth to take it on the chin and press on. Those same people taught my scouts incredible skills. For that, they earned the right to voice any opinion they may have had. Needless to say, over time their opinions became more nuanced after working with my youth.

That’s a whole other metric. Registration fees have exceeded the cost of pizza. For older youth, many of whom pay their own fees, the pie that BSA is sharing is literally that.

@BetterWithCheddar when my sons were cubs, I only paid for the youth and didn’t need to register to overnight with them. BSA does risk pricing itself out of hey market. It’s not that they compete with sports, but they and sports share a pie with many things that parents want their kids to have.

@AwakeEnergyScouter, having grown wiup in a troop from a small-town (plenty of farm boys) and interacting with boys from troops of more urban areas, I kind of got the impression that our SM often picked the more remote campsites at summer camp and camporees. That might have been partly because some of the boys (yours truly excepted) were pretty rowdy. But it could have also been that some leaders absolutely needed more immediate access to showers, or needed weekends with a cabin (something our troop never spent a night in), or some other amenity. We took some pride in being that little bit more rugged. But, I think our SM just was pleased to be spared unnecessary drama, and letting the "city boys" have their first pick of location was one way to keep the peace. As I became an older scout, I got the impression that other boys did not always get the same experience. I later met many men my age who describe their scouting experience as being boring or inequitable because their troop "didn't do that much" in terms of living adventurously. It seemed that they were "over sheltered" or the SM made things so simple for them that the experience was trivial. That should be a cautionary tale for us all.

@Armymutt, I wouldn’t say that it’s the norm. I mean, wanting to “go full on papa bear” is one natural reaction in the context of all that we know about the prevalence of abuse among teens, and the disproportionate prevalence among females. It takes a while to balance out that protective streak with lived experience working with other leaders to deal with problems of substance. So, it’s likely that this kind of thing will arise fairly regularly. It isn’t all that new. And the behavior also happens in unisex environments. It probably has been happening in BSA and GS/USA since the 60s, contributing a little bit to scout resentment and the gradual membership decline that we’ve seen ever since.