qwazse

The PWD is a trail of tears most days. Your son does have something to be proud of. I hope you do find a pack without these monkey-shines. But if you don't. When your son is 11, do consider having him visit a troop or two.

I can't remember if I was SPL or PL at the time, but I was fully responsible for my non-compliant scout one winter campout. When he went hopping away from the fire with lit boot, it was entirely on me to tackle him, grab that smoking lump of rubber off his foot, sink it in the snow, and figure out if his foot got hurt. (It didn't.) Then it was on me to figure out how to make that holey boot and a sock full or tar babies serviceable until we got home. Only after that, would I then walk the 100 yards over to the SM and report the situation. Frankly, I never knew there could be a panoply of adults meddling in campfire affairs until my son started scouting. But then, our kids are dressed in much more expensive foot gear. Gotta protect that investment, I suppose.

Let me answer your question with two questions: When camping, how far away do you insist that adults camp from the boys, and how far away do does each patrol camp from the others? During meetings how many rooms down the hall are the adults from the boys?

My junior sociopaths would run to some very dark places with that one. Maybe we could try "what promotes the greatest survival advantage of the species", but that is very Homo-centric. ..."What is wholesome for all sentient beings?" A little more universal. "What's best for the biosphere?" But, why? I'm all for pointing out inklings of "God-sense" in a friend, but I'm also not inclined to patronize someone who thinks it all to be bollocks. If they think we're all wasting precious time mucking about with religion (even the highly disorganized individualistic variety), then we have a fundamental difference over a hefty chunk of what scouting in the USA is supposed to be. If an athiest doesn't want his/her son exposed to what they would chalk up to a bunch of gibberish, it's fair to warn them that cost of the bling includes acquiescing to said gibberish. This is hardly any different than a conservative Jew or Christian who feels that his/her teen should not be exposed to inter-faith influences. Well, I ignored that photo of Wayne Perry in tan shirt and brown pants .... As far as I can tell, National hasn't asked me to be its henchman. My job. Get to know the parents. Let them know there's this rift that your scouters try to smooth over, but at a certain point, maybe when a boy reads his own membership application, definitely if a boy applies for Eagle, it may come up. How they want to prepare their son between now and then is entirely up to them (and eventually him).

I never saw my Webelos DL in uniform (either BSA or his State Police uni). He was younger, and I think he was making it clear that he was one of us. And, yes we did take advantage of it and prank him from time to time. But it wasn't that hard to know his boundaries and we definitely stayed within those. In exchange, he got us into all kinds of activities -- including one fond memory of him teaching us how to shoot his .38 special. (G2SS wonks can sit on your hands, please. This was a county where boys made their own gunpowder because it was cheaper than playing video games all day.) I think he cut me some slack with a few pins as well -- basically calling my dad and asking if I at least tried each activity. I kinda felt bad for some of those "gimmes" ... But at least my dad told me why he thought I deserved them, which brings me to a point I didn't make earlier: boys know if you "cut corners", and it adds a little shame to the award. So remind parents that their kids deserve a real sense of pride. They need to know someone loves them even if they fall short, but they also need to know that there will be no whitewashing of shortfalls.

MBCs are usually managed by district. So, troops usually get a listing of only those within their district. So generally, you aren't likely to get a call from 150 miles away. As far as I know, however, that does not preclude you from counseling a scout from the opposite side of the country.

Guys, I'm no expert on hillbilly hat sizing from 35 years ago. But, yes, my head is larger than most. Size 8 is snug on me but it's usually because my head is not as oval as most hat holes! It takes years of trying on lots of models to find one to suit.

First, advancement is not a method of venturing. Awards and recognition is. The specialty awards, Ranger, Quest, and Trust are still available. None of my youth are at all interested in these or any other awards. They just want the occasional activity that stretches and challenges them, and they want unique social opportunities. Other advisors, however, tell me they can't keep their kids away from awards. Every crew's different.

CNY, you've read this forum enough to know the answer. Cut the BS from the BSA. Your son is the DC. He is the one to help out. He is the one to tell these boys what's so important about uniforming. He has the right to ask the boys to shape up or else he will be embarrassed to introduce them to his troop. At the same time, he is the one who can tell the boys that AoL sets them up for a successful introduction to troop life. They should make an honest effort to earn it. But it's okay if they don't. They can still join the troop when they meet the age/grade limit. If your son is feeling disrespected, he can talk to DL, CM and SM about how to handle it. You may be there to put the parents in line. So, take them into another room if you have to. Assure them that the AoL requirements must be completed as written to earn the award. The DL is more than happy to read those loosely. But there has to be a good faith effort on the part of the boy and his family. If the requirements are not completed the award will not be earned. The B&G is an imaginary deadline as far as you are concerned and any attempt to link it to AoL is a drag on the Pack's program. Furthermore, if any boy gets so much as a bead under false pretenses, you would rather him look for another troop. Otherwise, your troop is happy to take in any boy who ages in unpretentiously. Inform them that sometimes not earning AoL is a healthy way for a boy to start his trail to Eagle. I guess epithets like "cupcake" and "parlor" scout are in order. But, it seems like you don't know these parents well enough to use them.

CNY, this is wrong on a number of levels, and one family who shuns religion is the least of your worries, IMHO. Boys don't need AOL to cross over. They don't need to cross-over in any particular time frame. And they certainly don't need to do it for any B&G dog-and-pony show. If the boys want to hussle up and do those requirements in the next three months, fine. If not, you should tell the Pack Committee to not "waive" any requirements except for physical disability. Your son has the opportunity to actually get a den full of boys to enjoy scouting. He doesn't need to be involved in any "rubber stamping.":confused: If, starting in February, the troop wants to welcome the Webelos who haven't earned AoL to "visit" meetings and events on a regular basis, that's fine too. As each boy comes of age or graduates 5th grade, hand them the application for transfer. Actually, if a few of them cross over without AoL, your son should consider himself a real success. Why? Because he will have presented scouting to those boys as something more than a pathway to more bling.

As a scout, it was the red baret, until our troop pitched in an ordered ball caps with our #s on it. Until then, or SM never wore a hat. In Western PA, don't recall seeing many campaign hats in the '70's and '80s. In high school I picked up a wide-brim felt hat from a truck stop in TN, for its two features. One: its look was more mountaineer than cowboy (living in Steeler country, that was an important distinction). Two: at size 13, it fit perfectly, which was a rare find among headgear. I did not wear that so much for scouting as I did for show (square dances, in particular), but later realized it did a purty good job deflecting the rain off my back -- so from college and beyond it became my go-to headgear for hikes in the woods. The kids found it to be irresistible, and it didn't survive them! So, when they finally grew out of stealing dad's clothes for "dress up", I started looking, and for $35 found me a wide-brimmed leather hat not far off from Headgehog's description. It has a nice braided band for sticking feathers in, and endures my kind of scouting. So, it gets worn with my field uniform. I think a campaign hat would have been in shreds 2-3 times over by now. But truth be told, I've never hiked with a scouter who would wear one through our laurel thickets to know for sure.

Nice Quaker world view, SSScout, and it sounds like this family may be doing something of the sort. (Lacking a link, we can't tell for sure.) But I wonder if the ancient Christians were offered similar thought experiments in attempts to get them to burn incense to Ceasar?

Do share the link if you have one, but ... At this point (assuming the family does not want the boy "experimenting" with religion), the only way to maintain the dignity of all parties involved is to allow parents the right to refuse the award. It's perfectly reasonable for scouts to make it this far without controversy. But clearly playing cat-and-mouse with requirements is not a behavior I want to encourage in any citizen. Regarding membership, my religious and ethnic persuasion demands that I do everything possible to be hospitable and keep this family on the roster, and keep National's nose out of it! It sounds like you're of the same opinion.

Get the boys and the COR around the same campfire and talk about the best way to handle this. Generally you want a one-year cushion. But, you may want to plan for some whiz-bang recruiting opportunities. Even letting it be known that you have $200 camper-ships for any boy who joins your troop this year may help bring in some families who were feeling scouting's "sticker shock."

Of responsibility. There's a difference. Although, like Stosh, I think the SPL position is unnecessary for the average troop of 24 scouts, I am of the opposite opinion and have seen ASPL's operate without contention in their respective patrols. That said, ASPL's are servant leaders in two dimensions. They assist the SPL and perform as he directs (e.g., covers for him when he can't make a meeting or event, etc...) and they assist the PLs as they lead the troop (e.g., helps acquire gear, skilled instructors, etc ... for what ever goals a given patrol may have). So, although he may camp with his "home" patrol, he -- along with the SPL -- should be routinely checking in with other patrols. How much time he devotes to this depends on how self-reliant the patrols are. With highly troop-method leadership, he might have to 'make rounds' every hour of scouting time! With patrol-method leadership and independent patrols, he might have to only do this at PLC's and via cracker-barrels. So, if you're a PL in a troop with lots of patrols that aren't very independent and need lots of supervision (not because of the boys, necessarily, but because of adults who can't stand a little chaos), you're going to have to give him a little slack and maybe ask how he can contribute to the life of the patrol while still fulfilling his troop POR. If you're in a troop where patrols operate independently, and the SPL/ASPLs time commitment is limited to making rosters for which patrol has which responsibility which day, you're going to have to decide what needs to change: his attitude or your leadership style. So a question you should ask yourself of any scout (regardless of the patch on his sleeve): is he an authority? Let's forget about the POR, and assume this guy is senior (older, more advancement, more camping nights, general know-it-all, whatever). That is, when he proposes a different idea, would it be wise to listen to him based on what you know of his experience? This doesn't mean you accommodate him outright (unless it's an a emergency and this idea of his might spare life and limb). It does mean that you lead by bringing in the rest of the patrol and ask, "Hey, guys, I was planning on doing things one way, but Pee Wee just offered an alternative. What do you think would be the best thing to do?" Now they might decide to stick with your plan, or they might like his. Regardless, you have no longer made it about him vs. you, but about "us". It also elevates the status of your scouts who aren't authorities, and forces them to keep thinking about what's best for the patrol. This is just one way to handle this. Maybe the scout is not an authority. His idea might be sounding all-too-convenient for himself. And his suggestions about your leadership style are just plain rude and inappropriate. Well, then you might need to arrange for a conference with the SM/ASM about adjusting the attitude of one of your patrol members. Note: that in either instance the patch one someone's sleeve is irrelevant. Your concern is for the good of the patrol.

The handbook is not for "Boy Scouts" it's for boys. (And, the occasional sister who picks it up.) A neighbor boy, who won't join our troop or crew but whom I often find hiking independently with his buddies, asked me if I had the 1941 edition that he could borrow. (I didn't.) Somehow this boy had the sense that that early edition HB had something in it he needed (and I don't think it was a cold bath)!

I would not dual register this scout. It just sets up a push-pull between SM's that will take the fun out of the game of scouting. I would encourage him to join another troop, simply because SMs are quite slow to change their leadership style. The boy should visit other troops and ask questions about what they do besides camping. Also, it's important to make sure you understand what the boy doesn't like about camping. Is there some bullying or hazing? Does he get homesick easily? Are there intimidating physical challenges? Does he not like to cook and clean-up for himself? These things may help the SM understand why the boy is leaving, and adjust the program in the future. If the boy is Eagle-bound he's not gonna get around the 20 required nights for camping merit badge, but not every scout is in it for the bling. He should do everything he can to become a first class scout. So he should pick a troop that will help him master first class skills.

I've gone over the syllabus, but missed an opportunity to work through it in a class. Not much has changed. New advancement scheme, but most of us think that's of neutral value. The best part of training is getting to know your fellow leaders. The'll be essential resources as you go forward.

This is one of those horse-to-water situations. The good thing is, with "pushed" advancement, you can count on more frequent scoutmaster conferences with the boy. And really, once the beer has worn off, the time you spend in dialogue with the scout is your only option. And, that time can include stories like "You know back in the day, there was this thing called a First Class journey. ... If you had a chance to do something like that, what would it be like? Where? How? What do you think it would take for your folks to let you go?" Independent camping is definitely not likely for this boy. It's just a vision. But, it's a starting point for helping him to interact with his dad and the advancement method in a more balanced fashion.

We're not talking about blind trust here. Scouts who've shown a lack of ambition in skill-building, a lack of integrity, behavioral issues, etc ... won't go far from the SM's steely-eyed glaze! That applies even if they're well over 18! The boys and girls who camp independently have earned the trust of their parents. "Here's the keys to the car. The gear's in the garage. Take what you need. Fill up the tank when you get back." ... That kind of trust. And, Barry, I've known scouts who, with their parent's permission, set up camp with their girlfriends. Why were they allowed? Because in that context the parents could justify a conversation about sexual boundaries... something that doesn't happen when Johny and Jane skip off to the mall, or drive-in, or either family's basement. So, if the demise of independent camping has anything to do with a coed vision for the organization, I think it is sorely misguided.

No 'Skip, you are not alone. The craziest politicians are the ones who dare promote balanced views and actually make their policies and priorities known to the public. They are up for drubbing from all sides. It's better to go around drawing a picture of a radicalized world that needs to be saved so that you can paint yourself as its savior without actually saving anything. Bottom line: girls aren't being trained in promiscuity through their scouting program. Teen cable channels and streaming video are doing that for us. But, many scouts aren't being trained to "unplug," live in our great land like a pioneer for a day or two every month or so, and use that experience to make them strong and good.

Agree with Rick, to a point. Boundaries are important. The entire flat cannot be a non-swimmer area! Even an enclosed wading area can be fraught with risks. Once one of my kids was on the way to becoming a passive victim in shallow enclosed water. Although standing depth, he wasn't finding his feet. He was in a guard's "blind spot" (although in a pool, there should never be one) and may have been noticed in another minute ... or not! Fortunately my guard training has me always scanning, and I saw him and could pull him up just as his movements were slowing. He caught his breath, and since I managed to pull up the poker face before he opened his eyes, put his feet down, and was good to go. Hurray buddy system. Application in this context: Everyone crosses with a buddy. Plenty of lookouts, and guards set the boundary long and skinny -- so it's probably going to be the imaginary lines between them. Ropes and floats are of no consequence here, although I could see the use of a long low density rope, as a helpful indicator. (Where it goes under, you know to look out for a kid.) The number of guards determines the number who cross at a time. Although honestly, I wouldn't allow more than 10 buddy pairs total. That way the lookout isn't counting higher than 20, and everybody is more likely to keep track of everyone else. Needless to say, a guard trained in your council might apply the rules differently according to his experience and the conditions at hand. But, if you come up short, I'm an airline ticket and room and board away!

Well, I guess the closest metric would any night where that 300' minimum distance is honored. But, when I'm backpacking with the boys this weekend, and our target valley is nary 100 yards wide, I'm not going to move my site so they can get "street cred" ! I never think of the "troop's use" of the patrol method, because we're a small troop and my challenge is youth buy-in. Although an SM deserves props for the required servant leadership to make it happen, when a patrol actually acts like one for 24 hours straight, credit should go to the boys. Why replace the Jambo patch? IMHO it's just not the pinnacle scouting experience. It's inspiring (it inspired me to explore minimal impact camping, snorkeling, and satellite imagery) but it's a niche that attracts less than 3% of eligible membership. Likewise the HA bases ... not for every boy ... although very inspiring to some boys. I'm not discounting the importance of some boys coming back from these "big ticket" events and reshaping their troop as a result. That's important ... But, the vision every First Class scout should have is of them finding a time and a place and, with confidence in themselves, understanding of their mate's abilities, and complete trust of caring adults, taking their mates on an overnight outing. At the end of the day it boils down to who I want my youth picking out of a crowd. I think I want them to be able to find the guy who can tell them about that "awesome site by this terrific stream that we found while patrolling" ...

Barry, although 300' absolutely terrorizes my SM (we're all learners in one way or another ), the boys are generally quite comfortable with it. But I underlined two key phrases. This is not about gross percentages. The patrol who routinely throws together a solid plan that any SM or advisor would feel comfortable with is a rare animal, and usually has a couple of 18-year-olds in tow. It is about the type of scout we are losing. Say there's a 16 year old out there who's calling the farmer down the road, getting permission, explaining to his buddies and their parents the location, return time, and emergency contact of their overnight, earning the trust of all adults involved ... HOW WOULD YOU NOT WANT THAT BOY INSPIRING THE BOYS IN YOUR TROOP TO DO THE SAME? This is not a numbers game. This is about vision.