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@@perdidochas, I had the same experience. But I think it is because I used pocket knives more. More clothing comes with pockets than sheaths, so I was more likely to have a pocket knife at the ready (e.g., at ease before evening flags at JLT when I was obsessed with perfecting my toggle ).

I don't see us in a position of reopening this to adult leaders simply because of the sex bias. Worthy female venturers would see the opportunity to advance to first class while serving as ASM then vie for candidacy in O/A as a youth. Although some chiefs in the Brotherhood are on record as welcoming young women, the prevailing attitude among scouters has silenced all such aspirations. There are probably a half dozen other ways that adults being on the advancement track while women below the age of 18 are not would cause controversy. See, that's the interesting thing. There was a point where people didn't say that. The handbooks referred to the "scout" advancing. Then after 1950 the discussion is about a "boy" advancing with the implicit attitude that the adults are beyond that sort of thing! Ya sure, 'cause in the past 50 years, since they weren't occupied with their own advancement, adults have avoided mucking up the patrol method. Well, he lived only when adults could earni it. I'll leave it to those who've collected his speeches to provide any statement of his that would speak to the matter. It would be rather obtuse, since he did not seem to mettle in the design of other scouting organizations beyond encouraging them to press on. It may help to note that the age limit for Queen's Scout is currently 25. Not sure what it was historically. Whatever transpired to make us think so categorrically about youth vs. adult awards, I don't think it was any particular opinion of scouting's founders.

You owe him big time, Dad! Any stainless steel penknife that folds to the size of his palm should do. Still limit tools to a basic set. Simply because the more there are, the harder to grip. Get him a whetstone ... maybe some oil. And, a first aid kit!

I wasn't really trying to sort out the chicken vs. egg ... which is a mess because the idea was promoted over years, and, as you said, different parts of the country bought into two seemingly unrelated notions over the span of a dozen years. Those two ideas were: The advancement program is "for the boys" and adults in the program should occupy their time with other things (like, say, Wood Badge tickets?). This is a program "for the boys" and boys in the program need to reinforce some basic knowledge that they may not be getting from other institutions (school, church, home), etc ... All requirement changes, IMHO, are reactions to a sense of something "slipping through the cracks" (note that Family Life was made required in 1994 ... about the apex of "family values" rhetoric). I'm just wondering about what scouters in 1950 felt was slipping through the cracks. I'm also wondering if the few interested adults were free to go through advancement, would the increased "bookwork" badges have been tolerated?

For he first fifty years of the BSA, adults could earn Eagle along with their sons. Bryan's Blog posted Some clippings of how that played out: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/07/02/10-times-history-adults-earned-eagle-scout-award/ I've heard a few reasons why this practice ended. The position of responsibility requirements were added; however, adults hold official and unofficial positions in a troop. Likewise, leading a service project (also a novel requirement at the time) would be as challenging for many adults. One respondent to the blog cited a 1972 handbook: "it would be unfair to permit those over 18 to earn badges since they would be easier for them.†I noticed that this synchronized with a series of changes to the required list of merit badges from which Bird Study, Pioneering, Signaling, and Pathfinding were dropped. All of those were concepts that I've seen challenge adult and boy alike. The addition of bookwork badges to the required list could favor the adult unfairly. But, I'm wondering if the '72 statement is a reversal of causality. That is, without adults in the picture, did BSA have more freedom to add more material that paralleled school life? Was the removal of adult Eagles the first step toward a more indoor program?

We use it as neither. It refers to someone who his stuck in jaggers (i.e., briars, typically blackberries) so much that everyone else has to do his share of work. We don't use it around kids (or if we do, it is a veiled term of endearment) because, well, it is their job to pick blackberries so Ma can make us pie for desert. Oh, and how much you are allowed to use it is proportional to how much you've labored in or around the steel industry. If management says it, they can expect the union representatives to bring a grievance within the hour.

Remember these are Webelos age girls. So the camping is at their level.

@@Incorrigible, welcome to the forums. Sounds like an awesome crew with an advisor who is to foolish to run way when called upon to serve. There are some great posts in the venturing section, and yes, a lot of us fly by the seat of our pants. But it's not healthy ... Get as many of your adults to your councils next Venturing Leader Specific Training, the the council doesn't hold one, contact your area venturing commissioner, if your area doesn't respond, go regional. Feel free to ask questions. Most of us have screwed in similar light bulbs, and we're pretty free with our advise.

Yes. WIth staff cuts, work piles up. Usually on volunteers.

We use a mix of the following: Pump filtration is okay, but can jam after a few days of gritty water. So, you have to carry maintenance/replacement gear. Tablets are reliable -- especially with cloudy sources, but hard on the digestion after a few days. Gravity is easiest, but takes planning. The UV light weights about as much as tabs ... good for low-sediment sources, fast acting, but still creeps me out. Our boys are older so each can carry his own system, and we rotate through them over the course of a few days. Really and truly, given our location, chelating, boiling and distilling would be the best. Followed by rain capture and fired clay/silver nitrate gravity filter. Neither of which are conducive to patrols on the move.

Your reply: "Easy solution: camp more. 'Nuff said." But it hardly matters. They won't take it as a wake up call. They just found a scapegoat. Now, would I have gone through the trouble of inviting the rest of my den? No! That's the PLC's call. Even if there's this open invitation, if they did not plan this particular weekend to have Webelos, then your son should have asked one buddy and his dad, at most, to keep him company. Same rules as I have with the crew. It's not on me to muck about inviting the troop. That's the VP of program's job. What's up with needing to invite the den if your son has to come, anyway? If you have to take him to the pub on Dad's night out, do you invite the den? All that's not the pack's problem ... But maybe you did jump through the hoops with the PLC and that detail was cut in the process of making a long story short. Just making sure folks in Internet land get it.

An off-the-cuff-definition: Word choices that some folks in the group never want to use out of fear of offending their God, country, or Mamma. No, we can't dodge all choice words (otherwise, St. Paul's one-word depection of material gains would have to be excized from the New Testament), but we can keep them to such a minimum that more folks would be willing to hear what we say and maybe respond with something that we need to hear. Sometimes closing our mouths serves to open our ears!

That's my mode of operation on certain forum posts ... even ones that may interest me deeply. When it gets to the point that someone can be no more creative than to type a cuss word, I no longer want to associate my credentials (pseudonymous as they may be) with that discussion.

@@imachristian13, I don't think you our anyone else can diagnose this as a case of no-matter-where-you-go-there-you-are until you actually go there. Another troop, another campfire, another discussion with different ASMs. I'm betting you drew a bad hand with the last troop. I'm betting they didn't know they were a bad hand. But, if I'm wrong, be sure to tell us.

As to the adult "hangers-on", @@Stosh is not joking about physical distance. At meetings, I usually take it upon myself to engage the adults in conversation.... Drawing them away from the boys. It also, allows me to instruct parents about the patrol method, and what we expect from the boys in terms of hiking and camping independently. To establish that distance in the field, you and your SPL will have to prepare a little before campouts. Get a map of the area. If you're in a big field (we're talking 200 yards square big), plan out sites on the four corners for each patrol and adults in the middle. If you're in wooded terrain or in a valley, you might need sites to be a little closer. Or you might need to set up on alternate sides of a windy trail 40 paces apart. Sort those details out with your SM. Regardless, you want to have on paper where each patrol and the adults will be assigned before you ever leave on your trip. Each group gets their copy of the map, before anybody gets in the car. During the weekend, you and the SPL will have to do a few rounds of walking all that distance to check in on your patrols, then report back to the adults. On the outside chance one of your patrols is misbehaving, you may have to relocate them closer to the adults. But in all likelihood, you'll just need to gather them for morning and evening flags and such. After a few trips like this, you'll either shake those adults or they'll have so much fun together, they'll shake you!

I'm an ASM in our troop, we had an issue about swearing (and using abbreviations for cuss words on social media): We circled up and I explained the problem I made it clear that I considered it a privelage to have them as friends, and one of the things that freinds do is help each other get better. If they swore (verbally or in writing or song), they could expect a "Don't cuss." comment from me. That's it. No swear jar, no push-ups, just me interrupting their speach. Any time I caught it, I would say (or type) so. I encourged them to do the same thing to one another ... a scout is friendly ... a scout is brave. I confessed that I have the problem sometimes too, and I would be glad if they told me a "Don't cuss." If I needed it. It helped diminish things. Not quite to zero, but enough that everyone's language was a little less intimidating and a little more friendly. Nowadays, our boys are older, and I just say "Language!" to the same effect. They know I don't mean them ill will, so it's okay. But a short yet complete scentence calmly delivered for starters helps everyone know that we're not putting anyone down.

The bears in my neck of the woods are pretty shy. But I've never heard of them being attracted to deet or picarin. Anybody actually heard of bears going after mosquito netting? As far as deoderants go, IMHO ... don't. If you want to discourage a bear, smell like the last thing on earth she'd want to tangle with. The great thing about Underarmor, it really seems to absorb those nasty human organics so it's the perfect scent rag. I'd almost be temped to hang the day's shirt in the middle of camp. I'm going to Dolly Sods next month, Lord willing. And the real challenge will be to pick-and-zip the blueberries, then scrub hands with freshwater before pulling out the bagging rope.

Welcome @@brck4, and yes there are a lot of armchair QBs who don't get it. Never will. Tune them out. I'm sure the toughest critics we'll never hear are in Cimmaron right now.

@@jpstodwftexas, having a troop of boys who endured a loss on the road to camp, all I can say is boys are resilient. I never really understood hope until I saw how each of our lost scout's buddies grew up strong and good. Not denying that they go through life with a new burden, and many of them won't be able to face a flood without bitterness. But courage wells up, and they overcome. That arrowhead might recall a tragedy, but it also is the last happy memory of their friend. At least, that's my prayer for them. ...and for the parents and scouters. This is a very hard walk, requiring tremendous grace.

We had a "boundary pusher" like this transfer into our troop at a time when we had a lot of qualified adult MBCs camping with us and, out of the goodness of their heart, providing counseling in house. Thanks to a school system that had no qualms with grade inflation, he learned to leverage a disorder and become a skilled manipulator. Daily, our people told us about how he would try to negotiate his way out of doing requirements. We concluded that if he was "smart" enough to manipulate, he was capable of doing all of the work. So we made sure our people, as well as any camp staff we met, would make no concessions. So, he would take it out on his PL, manipulating out of work, or trying to pick a fight. Finally, to keep the SM's blood pressure in check, we set up a "the buck stops here" committee. Keep pushing it? Talk a walk to the committee table. There he invariably heard "Be a scout, or go home." The MC's were almost certain he'd be going home the next day, and even I was only giving him even odds, but he straightened out for the remainder of the week. So, upon reflection, I'm wondering if we were experiencing what you said earlier about a kid with unrestrained energy in a boy-led outfit. It's not clear if you need a "buck stops here" committee. But, the kids in your troop know the drill. So hold this one to it. Everyone needs to be clear that SMC's and BoR's in other troops are just for fits and giggles.

So ... He's had an SMC, by you. Maybe one by your friend? But it sounds like you'd like one more before signing off in the book. He says he had a BoR by another troop committee for one or more ranks? You have no idea why adults would do that. Me neither (speaking from a troop that has hosted a few visiting scouts for the week). But the boy seemed excited about it on whatever message he left with you? It really sounds like you're gonna get a completely different description of events when you talk to your friend. But regardless ... Is the kid trustworthy? Then you can ask him up front if he had demonstrated those skills well enough to have gotten those signatures if you were there. You could also ask if he could help the new PL practice signing off on requirements by demonstrating the skills he mastered while camping with the other troop. I would ask the kid to schedule a BoR with your committee ... to finalize rank advancement, and to tell the adults what he liked about the other troop and is there anything your troop should try to do. You could use the "I'm worried about anybody looking at your Eagle application finding irregularities in your paperwork ... " excuse. But the fact is, you want your people to be responsible for their boys. Just like you wanted him to be responsible when he was PL. If this is about control, tell the kid straight up. He might not like it, but he'll respect it. Save the paperwork excuse for any helicopter parents.

Sounds like he might want to transfer to the other troop. It could be as simple as him needing older scouts to guide him. Get the full story before spouting off policy.

Now that I consider @@Stosh's situation in specific,I'd agree that his and his committee's signature on SMCs and BORs are the only valid and final ones. The 2nd BoR deal was only a strategy to work around time constraints ... and his scout doesn't have any. The PL's signatures on the other requirements should do. But, if you have doubts about the temporary PL at camp, have the boy demonstrate what he's learned. In response to the latest post: I'd be more concerned to get a word with the temporary SM about any behavior issues. If they happened only on week 1, fine. Chalk it up to prepubescent anxt, male PMS, whatever. If they recurred, a word with the parents is in order.

Tragic.

All of this provisional stuff requires improvisation. If logistics allow, the boy's regular SM should be on the card. But, it's fine if the temporary SM signs it. I'd ask the kid to have two BORs, the first one being official, the second being for some commitee to find out what the boy liked about advancement.