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Interesting comments at roundtable tonight: One scouter returned from World Jamboree and concluded "If's all about scouting, not boy scouting!" Another scouter said, "That's why I [didn't volunteer in a direct-contact position with BSA but rather] pushed paperwork for everyone. My daughter and wife wanted me to take THEM camping."

My observations concur. But these are problems that can only be solved if more girls are brought in on the same education track as boys. By the time scouts who enter the program at 14 (summer camp at probably 15) have sufficient skills to mentor another youth in outdoor living, they are on their way to college or war. The only solution that I can think of that doesn't involve BSA going full-on co-ed is granting Venturing and GSUSA to use the trail to First Class as part of their training program for young women. And as @@pargolf44067's pretzel-ignition anecdote indicates ... this is a problem many parents of young women have no interest in solving.

My comeback: STREAM ... Gotta put some recreation in there for the phys ed. guys!

We've learned that "quickly" is the only way to handle these things. I've known young female staff to be hesitant to speak up in those situations. This is especially true when they've had to tell us about one of our boys. (It's actually hilarious. They walk into camp and before they even open their mouth the, SM says, "Let me guess, [insert problem scout's name here].") And her reticence is for good reason, I am more than willing to haul home a troublemaker if he crosses that line. She doesn't want to be responsible for that cascade of events. I point out that it's the first week of summer and a long way to the end of session, and staff deserve to work in an environment where it's not made any longer on account of ill-mannered boys. I suspect; however, that many of those boys would have "sanded away" those kinds of behaviors in their units if they were brought up co-ed. So life as a female staff might get a little easier. But to make sure we are "sanding" smoothly, most of us would benefit from some coaching from our British counterparts or maybe the Campfire USA folks on what to look out for with co-ed Webelos and middle-schoolers.

@@Sentinel947, you and I have be brought up to think of this as a "kids award" in a "kids game". Those are working assumptions that came along in the mid '60s, about the same time as the "pencil whipping" required elements of the award began to increase. Just keep that in the back of your mind as I ask us to mull this over ... Several reasons: not the least of which is the increasingly maddening bureaucracy of the age 18 deadline for this award and the age 21 deadline for venturing silver. But, beyond that: Adults should learn scouting skills ... but does that "trained" patch on their sleeve actually mean that they've done it? Different training tracks are expensive. How about one consolidated training track administered continuously at the unit level by seasoned SPLs and PLs that applies to both youth and their direct contact leaders ... rather than an adult training track on a district level. Boys seeing adults learning things = inspiration. Does it make Eagle a bigger part of the program? Let's just say every SM and ASM manages to earn it over the course of 15 years ... that's maybe a 10% bump in awards. Look out central supply! More 18 year olds are postponing entering college or the military. We all know about the boys who turn 17 and realize that they really would like that bling after all. Maybe one or two of them would make great ASM's ... if only we had a hook that would make them feel like they were accomplishing something while they served. If advancement is available to girls, that means more female adult leaders .. all of whom will have never been on the trail to Eagle. The increase in "armchair quarterbacks" could lead to more troops with poor advancement programs.

The new guy brings up an old discussion, but maybe there are some fresh opinions ... Well, like @@desertrat77 I know of one sister who, in spite of some good years venturing, was resentful of her brothers (one older and one younger) going off camping every month. That said, @@T2Eagle, for every one of those young women I know of dozens who are more than happy to hunker down in their GS troop. GSUSA will hardly feel the dent. So don't think of it as providing benefits to "the other half". Maybe opportunity (assuming that all scouters would welcome such a change with enthusiasm and announce the open door to every girl and sonless mom in their community -- a big ask), but for a very long time the program will benefit boys more than girls. The handbook would need a rewrite to address things like peer pressure etc... from both sex's viewpoint. A simple minded example: my most involved older venturers learned to skimp on the prom dress. @@Eagledad, we might want to consider other things that lead our volunteers to continue scouting in ignorance. Foremost might be removing the 18th birthday deadline on earning Eagle. And requiring all direct contact leaders to be 1st Class Scouts. My Czech scout informs me that of the four troops in his "entity" (he couldn't find the word for it, but it sounds close to what we would call very small districts), two are co-ed, one is all male, one is all female. I suspect something similar would happen here, as has happened in venturing. But, as I mentioned earlier, AHG and TLUSA may beat BSA to the punch as they are working from the top down to devise common awards and representation at national activities.

@@MattR, my one peeve about being a parent and advisor is that everyone in my crew refuses to call me by my 1st name. Same-aged youth in other crews ... no problem! And this is after years of E-mails without "Mr. Q" anywhere in the by-line! One more thing: Venturing Officers' Association. Find out if your council has one. You'll want your lead youth to commit to contributing to it.

I don't know if it aired on TV anywhere. I found it on a Facebook link to Buzz-feed or some such sight. The friend who shared it was not a scout.

@@blw2, cut the callers off at 50 sessions a week. That'll leave plenty of free time.

Scouts South Africa going viral:

@@MattR, this is a complex situation that needs a lot of untangling. If you personally know of some female adults who buy into how you've applied the patrol method, you could encourage them to get together with your CO and start a crew. If you have an ASM who can step into your role so you can be an Advisor, that would work. If your committee was willing to let these girls use the same location and times as troop meetings so that you would be an available resource, that could work too. The BSA's patchwork system makes for extra paperwork so you would need a committee member dedicated to making sure this works for these girls. A crew needs a couple of extremely flexible adults willing to get training network and ask for help at every turn. Clearly these girls need someone who takes "youth led" seriously enough to let them fail half the time. The gear depends on the adventure. Determining and procuring it is part of the adventure. Maybe the current crew needs a unit commish or someone to ask "Why the iron fists?" Or, maybe they need these girls to move on to greener pasture. No way to tell. Look in the mirror and ask yourself "how crazy are you?" If it talks back, you might just be it. It has been someone for me to see a handful of young women go from naive to ready to hike into and bed down in the wilderness. I'm having a hard time getting that cycle to repeat, but even if it doesn't outlast my time as advisor, it will have been worth it.

I dunno, I can be surrounded by an entourage of scouts, and still feel those miles. Frankly, I kinda wish every candidate for the office were required to do this instead of those horrific debates. I would far rather judge a person on how they handle a dinner of grubs and lichen than how they doll up for a camera. In fact, Mrs. Palin won my heart with a picture of her fishing some coho salmon. She lost it when she wore some high fashion outfits that GOP staff had bought her for the convention. So, is POTUS trying to impress guys like us? Well, yes. Is it narcissistic? It depends on if he thinks his message is for the sake of our legacy vs. his own.

I'm jealous.

Well, there were precious few adults in the vicinity when I was a scout, so it was never a possibility. (I cant remember the SM and ASM joining us for meals. The would have had to, but I don't recall it.) Currently this is a troop tradition. Or, more accurately a solution to the problem of active adults in a campsite that is much smaller than the desired 600 yard postage stamp. It consumes space and ads clutter creating one more cooking station for a bunch of guys (and the occasional lady) who would do just as well with a pot for tea and coffee. Otherwise, old fart's patrols can get out of hand. For example, when I run shop, the menu includes shrimp scampi (properly done with clarified butter, dill and chili powder) and fettuchini alfredo beside fresh greens with vinegar and olive oil ... maybe tiramisu for desert. You can see how menus like that 5 days straight could could turn a boys' camp into a big-boy playground. Instead, we keep ourselves company at a picnic table some modest distance away from the hubub of cooking and wait for the PL to whom we were assigned to send a runner letting us know the meal is ready. We do have weekend camps where adults can "show how it's done" ... summer camp just isn't one of them.

Welcome. If you and your patrol find anything that folks here have written helpful, post a reply letting us know how it worked out. I'm not gonna try and discourage you from looking at controversial forums, but do let your folks know what you're reading. Their opinions should matter to you most. In four years someone should be handing you a voter's registration and asking you to run our country. So, start reading up no to be prepared for that day!

Working in the sciences, I see the need on a daily basis for the Oath and Law or some similar ethic. Lacking it, these fields quickly become monstrosities. Convenience is a factor as well. Lots of folks live closer to a lab or factory than they do to a farm or forest.

@@Eamonn, we never cook for the boys ... Especially at summe camp. There is plenty of time for them to cook for their troop ... Including the adults, two guests per patrol. Plenty of time left over for merit badges and camp-wide shenanigans. @@TAHAWK, I never learned about patrol method from professionals. It's volunteers who articulated it best for me. As a youth, I'm pretty sure my SPLs did more to explain it to us. Of course Green Bar Bill's articles provided ideas for practical implementation. Son#2's new roommate is also an Eagle Scout, and they've obviously been comparing notes. Son#2 told me he was a little envious the other troop's more successful implementation of the method.

I don't get that. Yes, the Mrs. and I have a bias towards STEM, and we infected our kids with that attitude to the point they gave their humanities teachers a run for their money. Heck, Son #1 confessed his love to he girl he would eventually marry using an integral formula. But, there is no way I'd waste a dime on science camp.

Credit the college boys I know who came up through scouting in the Czech Republic. The youngest might join our troop as an ASM if he can spare the time. They have no cubmaster or crew advisor or GS leader... just one "scoutmaster" for all 80-100 of them. His top rovers serve as den leaders (not the same term, but similar function) under his mentor-ship. By the time those rovers move on, their charges are at our boys' cross-over age. The down side, from talking to the boys' parents, is Eastern block folks had the whole adult association thing beaten out of them until the Wall came down. So, still 30 years later, the SM has hardly any committee, and a lot of drop-off parents. All those discussions have me thinking of how the grass can be made a little greener on either side of the old iron curtain.

Actually, I'm kinda thinking the reverse. We've revamped the CS program so many times over, I think one more modest change would be just fine. What if the next position after SPL or Crew President, would be (wait for it) ... .... Cubmaster? Really, why does that have to be an adult position? The best ones I know act like big kids anyway. He/she would be a mature 16-20 year old (yes they are out there) and would draw on fellow scouts/venturers to be Den Chiefs. They report to the SM or committee chair (perhaps now unified across both units) and would work with moms and dads to line up program for the boys. This would get parents more comfortable with the idea of youth leadership. What would adults who would-be Cubmasters do instead? Well, how about they start working on earning 1st class rank? That would get them comfortable with the skills needed to be a scout, and put them in a position to better assist the SM! Plus it would give them a leg up in earning Eagle (if they haven't already). Maybe getting a few adults to go through the advancement process again would lead to shedding off those required pencil-whipping badges y'all gripe about. But what about unintended consequences, like moms getting that bird bling? Don't worry, if O/A can play their smoke and mirrors to deny first-class female youth an honor, I'm sure the rest of us can keep up that charade as well.

I think that's why the designers of STEM scouts bypassed the merit-badge program. It is simply not flexible enough to have age-appropriate activities for any cluster of science related badges over a long term. The same thing could be said for GS-USA's science-related badges. My reading through this and the STEM-Nova programs gives me the sense that accumulation of time in various lab settings is as central to them as accumulating varied camping nights is to boy scouts. In fact, I could envision the pinnacle STEM-scouting experience as independently replicating science and unlocking the secrets of the universe with your mates. Lets hope the leaders and parents of this division can too.

I'm less concerned about where we failed, and more about how we can succeed. Since we've all bought into management speak, one way or another, I start with vision. Most of you have heard mine, but I repeat for newbies: Every American youth should envision the pinnacle scouting experience as hiking and camping independently with your mates. All other activities including meetings, cubs, troop camp-outs, summer camp, Jambo, high adventure bases, advancement, service, STEM, patriotism, etc ...are stepping stones to building that vision. Our success hinges on youth and adults actually thinking that's when you know you've arrived as scout. If you actually get there by your 18th birthday is another issue. But *the varsity letter* is not a badge or whatever, it's when your fellow citizens actually trust you (when the responsible adults are not there) to be good stewards of their land for a weekend. The next question becomes, what do we need to change to inculcate that vision?

Well, that saves Trail Life from ruminating about making allowances for social trinitarians.

Room and board is part of the compensation. And, it is seasonal work!

Bottom line: nothing official would prevent it. With our troop we often encourage it. Usually it's because the boys are friends across troop boundaries. But there have been other reasons as well, like a boy couldn't go to summer camp with his troop on a particular week. Your son is absolutely within his rights to call other SMs and explain his situation. And the SM is within his rights to explain his. For example, he might say he is really trying to get the boys to plan better, so it's important for him to attend the two meetings prior to a campout. Or there might be a training on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon. That stuff you'll only know if you call. The opinions of a bunch of old farts on the internet hardly matter.