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@@blw2, I get where your heart's at. And as an ASM I've tried to "take flack" so that the boys get the SM, if they need him, and the adults get me. It boils down to time management: even 10 minutes with a parent is 10 minutes away from the boy. So there'd better be a good reason to distract the SM (disability, family/financial problems, behavior issues outside of scouting, bullying in the patrol, their company provides a contribution pool to charities of the employee's interest, etc ...). More importantly, @@meschen said what he said. It's time to mean it. Giving in might set the two of them up for 7 years of negotiation. I think the correct gentle-but-firm reply would be, "When the boy wants to discuss advancement because he thinks his PL and SPL missed something, he may arrange to meet with me. Please understand that it would be unfair to the other youth if I allowed you to speak for your son." Then, refer the mom to the committee chair (or maybe a seasoned mom in the troop) for any questions she may have.

@@Eagle94-A1, I noticed when you refer to basics, you omit "unisex". Isn't that one of the basics?

Good luck with that.

If venturing doesn't change its trajectory and STEM dries up with the external funding, that's what we'll have: There are independent scouting organizations that would fill the void ... on paper at least. Venturing going all-male is unlikely to do anything good for its numbers. But it's numbers being small already, that would hardly impact the organization overall. O/A would not have to reckon with hard questions from sympathetic lodge chiefs. On the ground, GS/USA and BSA leaders and youth would find work-a-rounds. Occasionally, they'd make the evening news. Folks like @@Stosh would rant how that is undermining the integrity of the respective programs. Regardless, without adult leaders being welcomed to follow the trail to Eagle (also part of the "Golden Age of Scouting") and encouraged/required to do so at least until 1st class, we will continue to build a program that's so "age appropriate" that our leading boys will move elsewhere as soon as they realize they can.

@@ianwilkins or @@Cambridgeskip, what is the gain in male membership? If lots of girls joined but even half as many boys left (which I don't believe is the case), that might influence our opinions.

Several recent threads had some discussion about venturing training, so I thought I'd create a topic where folks can report on training events near them. I'm impressed with what our area VOA is putting together as it has something for every one. The location is convenient to folks in Ohio and Northern WV. If I can figure out how to attach the flyer, I will. Meanwhile if your interested personal message me and I'll send it to you. Subject: [Ne4Summit] Information and Registration for Area 4 VOA Fall Training Event The attached document is the registration packet for the Area 4 VOA Fall Training event Please join us at the Moraine Council's Camp Bucoco on October 23-25, 2015 for Engage, the Area 4 VOA's fall training event. This event is open to all Venturers, Advisors, Boy Scouts (age 13 and above), and Boy Scout leaders. The training is arranged in "tracks". Each track includes one or more courses. Track 1- Venturing Adult Training Venturing Advisor Position-Specific Training Crew Committee Challenge Track 2: Venturing Youth Training Introduction to Leadership Skills for Crews Mentoring for Venturers Venturing Goal Setting and Time Management Track 3: Outdoors Skills Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills Track 4: NRA Instructor Certification NRA Instructor Rifle Shooting Course, NRA Instructor Shotgun Shooting Course, and NRA Instructor Pistol Shooting Course *Three Instructor Certifications for the price of one! NRA Basic Range Safety Officer Course Track 5: NRA Shooting Courses NRA Basic Shooting Course - Combined Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, and Muzzle-loader courses - *Four for the price of one! * Content fulfills requirements for Rifle and Shotgun Merit Badges - Scouts must bring Blue Merit Badge Card (w/approval signature from Scoutmaster) and Merit Badge (Rifle and Shotgun) Pamphlets Track 6: First Aid/CPR Wilderness First Aid and CPR Track 7: Advanced Venturing The weekend culminates with Area VOA meeting and camp tour (Sunday 10 AM to 1 PM) to plan 2016 Area 4 Venturing Summit. Registrations must be received at the JVC office by October 9, 2015 at 5:00 PM. Some courses have maximum participation caps. Trainings are available on a first-registered, first-served basis. We look forward to seeing you at Camp Bucoco!!! Yours in Venturing, The Area 4 Venturing Cabinet

For not being interested in the woods, I know of a lot of youth who are getting their fill outside of BSA. For example, I know an 11 year old who enjoyed a Bear Grylls wilderness camp in New York. Sure beats fumbling around with novice leaders. How many of your scouters really have 1st class skills? I love my IOLS-trained SM, but he just dropped the rope and walked away when I ask him to tie a timber hitch. (I didn't ask because I was quizzing him, he asked if I need help running a ridge line, and that's what I needed at the time.) Maybe it would be better if instead of that "outdoor instruction", he got credit as he camped on 10 activities, and proved each skill as he mastered it with our SPL. One less weekend away from the troop, ten more of him trying to model what it takes to actually learn a skill. Why does training have to be managed by the district? Why does anyone over 18 or at the most, 21 need to be a trainer? Why can't part of a JASM's responsibility be training adults (in the pack as well as the troop)?

I agree with @@BDPT00 in that I have no interest in imitating another country for imitations sake. For example I admire what my Czech friends have accomplished as scouts. But they did not have anything like the trail to Eagle. So, does America need young women who rank First Class, Star, Life, and Eagle? Would our military be stronger ... with more competent enlisted women? Would our college student bodies be more successful? Our work force more capable? Would the next generation have better parents?

FB? Antipathy? Say it ain't so!

Well. this is a hot mess. The first two people you should talk to are the Chartered Organization Representative (COR) and Institutional Head (IH) of the organization who sponsors you. (Sometimes these are one in the same.) And sort out the simple question: Who's in charge? You, as CC, the IH/COR, and the SE or his/her designee sign each adult application. If you haven't signed an adult's application, he/she is not approved to lead your unit. Now operating as a merged committee just doubles the strife in many units, so someone may have used that pretense to pull a fast one on you to get a different CC appointed for the Crew. So you might validly ask if someone was appointed as crew CC without your knowledge. If not, ask to see the copies of the adult applications. (You can also check your unit's roster on my.scouting.org, but that doesn't show you who signed what.) If your institution is fine with transgender youth leaders, all your arguments along those lines will probably fall flat. Once upon a time folks at national would spew pronouncements about such things. I doubt it's worth the long distance call to find out what they'd say about this today. As far as letting youth and parents know. Well, I'm proud to let my families know that I'm a practitioner of a restrictive sexual ethic. But, maybe that's improperly biasing our youth by imposing on them an model that they might not naturally pursue. I think the desire to get consensus, i.e. "no secrets in scouting" and invite all worthy adults to consider the position should be your prime motive. Is there anyone else besides this candidate advisor able to do the job? If so, then asking why they weren't properly vetted is probably valid.

@@MattR, that's the problem with real scouters. You all are such suckers for motivated youth. Yeah, I've been through going around asking for "women with strong backs." Your best recruiters will be those four young ladies. But you do want to give them solid leads if you can. Start with troop moms or older sisters. (I was recruited by a troop mom.) these are people who've probably seen how you operate and trust you. Also, if they need equipment, your ASMs will most gladly loan it. Contact your institutional head and charter organization representative, they might have someone who will fit the bill. Contact your council venturing committee. They might be able to recommend a a former venturer who moved into the area. Also, they might offer the resources you need to fast-track paperwork. Which area are you in by the way? How far would you be willing to travel for training?

6) because it would be good for America! Seriously, I really wouldn't consider the notion if I didn't think this country needs this sort of thing. That said, I'm also open to the notion that BSA might not be the one to offer it. But if so, who?

Venturers follow the same procedures. According to Venturing Leader Specific Training: "The crew committee recruits the Advisor and associate Advi- sors.The committee completes and maintains the program capability inventory (PCI), which we will talk about later.The committee obtains equipment, approves the crew’s program, and helps with fund-raising and financial management.The committee usually meets monthly." The one difference in practicality, according to my observations, is that the youth are often more involved in starting a crew and have a pretty good idea of who they would select as advisors.

I guess this is where the rubber hits the road: if there is an opening with an across-the-board "this is how it's done", I'm against it. Troops need the latitude to ogranize in ways that work for them, then compare notes about what works and what they'd do differently. To manage the middle school age challenges, troops might rely on venturing as a "stick" for their best behaved kids. Or some folks have told me that they envision a move to rovers for 14-18 year olds. Again, that's the kind of across-the-board change that I would avoid.

@@Stosh, in recent years I've found myself at adult campfires thinking "I specifically avoided the ministry to be spared from conversations like this!"I'm not talking about what BSA proposes to offer, but what young parents come expecting ... Especially at the cub level.

@@NJCubScouter, thanks for the faint praise of us Advisors ... How do we do it? A lot of crazy mixed with a little stupid and an inability to say no to teen girls who want to hike and camp. Here's the actual secret: that goofball behavior ends when there's real work to be done. The boys still manage to be boys and the girls girls after about four miles on the trials rough rocks and bogs or when someone needs toilet paper for the latrine or the shovel to dig one. Co-Ed scouting doesn't look anything like those troop picnics. When it does, it may be the scoutmaster insists on segregating patrols by sex. When it looks like the youth want to get over themselves and work together, reassign patrols accordingly. Thus I have no problems with extending membership. But, I also am not all that bothered if it never happens.

We need to recognize that we are a post-modern nomadic culture. Previously, In modern agrarian and industrial society, Church and neighborhood used to be the family program. Gender and age specific organizations filled in the cracks. That worked because folks had a sense of permanence and little junior could be sent out to play until the street lamps came on or mild hypothermia set in. And if the tyke wound up eating at some other families house that was fine. There was plenty of trust that they'd be brought up right ... At least right enough to till land or roll steel or keep house for your mate who did. After school one day a week, we'd walk to our den leader's house and she'd give us an activity ...herself. No other parent's in the vicinity. All that has eroded for many folks. They bring their tyke to scouts looking for that community who will help them to raise their little tykes. They are hungry for human interaction because everyone is sealed up in a tin can walled off from their neighbors hours at a time each day. They are hungry for a space that recreates that neighborhood feeling ... Even for a moment. BSA has this reputation for building tent cities in nowhere, so they fill that gap by replicating it in as many families who are willing. Thus, the program we have today in Cubs, which is a little incongruent with what we are trying to do with Boys and Venturers.

Yes, I think so. It's called the trail to first class ... And then eagle.Challenge parents to walk their kids are being asked to walk. Those few who do might just be your next leaders.

So, let me get this straight ... We complain that female leaders are coming in 3 years behind in training. Hmmm I wonder what we could do to get females trained three years earlier in first class scouting skills? We complain about adults who never get trained in scouting skills. Hmmm, I wonder if there is an awards track that adults could follow to know for sure they understand what a youth in our program learns? We complain about mindless once-and-done beureaucratic poppycock requirements that boys know are dumbed down for them. Hmmm, I wonder if there's a group of kids who would love the challenge of these requirements and add life to the troop? We complain about kids getting dumped in the woods, and about them not getting dumped enough. Look, there's always going to be something we are doing wrong. But the big question is: can we open up access to some simple things that will allow some more people to do something right!

I have one relative who does yoga instruction on a paddle board. Whales and dolphins seem to be quite amused by the sight! The rest of my family, when they rent watercraft, only grab the paddleboard maybe 1 once for every 5 times they opt for kayaks!

They wouldn't have to, that's for sure. I suspect about half would mix at the unit level, and half would be unisex (most of those male). Same for patrols within co-Ed units.

This ain't confession ... so anything specific rattling around in my pre-teen head will be left unwritten! But, seriously, it's been a while since I've seen a scouting PSA that works so many angles in so quickly... Youth want to see themselves as heroes/heroins. This clip tugs on that string pretty solidly. Youth want to grow up right. So the transition to an adult plays into that desire too. Definitly the tug on the parent is well played. And, for us life guards, anybody else's heart skip a beat over a boy "going" without support?

First, who is gonna tell my SM how to organize patrols in his own troop? I'm the sort who leaves the room and tells the youth to segregate with the thought that they will be a team who has to hold together for at least a year. If I come back and a patrol has older+younger scouts or life+tenderfoot or girls+boys (under some hypothetical rules change) or maybe one of each of those categories ... I'm working with it. Who's gonna make me change? If my SM would rather do a little micromanaging, even though it's not how I'd do it. I'm assisting him ... that's what the patch on my sleeve says. If some other SM wants to toss youth-lead out the window and create the older-life-girls, older-life-boys, older-tenderfoot-girls, etc ... patrols with the youth in each having roughly identical characteristics, nobody's gonna revoke his charter. Second, I don't broker in hypothetical's from armchair quarterbacks. So unless that member of the "against" crowd is hiking 4 miles into bear country with my supper in his/her pack, I'm not likely to accommodate the anxieties of his/her constituents. The reason why Venturing works when it does is not because our youth have naturally shed that boyish or girlish behavior by age 14. It's because advisors won't let the crew officers put up with such shenanigans, and that get's sent down the chain. I suspect something of the sort would happen in the younger divisions of scouting.

Adult focused?I'm pretty sure 11-year-old me would think "I wanna be that guy."

Well, paperwork is a huge difference. You're not beholden to report your venture patrol to council. Crews have a separate charter, so if your boys want to join one, it's another application (youth until age 18, adult age 18+). Plus, the separate unit pays a rechartering fee every year Also, networking: your venture patrol does not have to touch base with anyone besides the patrols in your troop and they answer only to you. A crew is responsible to provide representatives to the council venturing officers association. Then the council VOA is supposed to recommend youth for Area and Region VOAs, and ultimately the national cabinet. The president of the latter is asked to report on scouting to Congress and POTUS. Needless to say, advisors often pitch in to help transport these dedicated youth. (A similar structure can be seen in O/A.) I think this is especially relevant to the sister who wants to talk to you. You should ask how involved she or anyone in the crew is with the council VOA.