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I neglected to give props to Heritage Reservation's Camp Liberty for it's patrol-cooking program. Each patrol is to send two members to commissary for food pick-up.

Oh, you poor soul. You must have never been to a western PA wedding (or wakes). Get yourself invited to (or crash) a couple of those, gravitate toward the cookie table. There's bound to be at least one Nona, Sitta, or Babcia who will have contributed a few to the medley. Best description: ice-cream cone unrolled.

That's a very good point. If all my friends (while practicing Safe Swim defense) said "come on in, the water's perfect!" I might join them. Here's the deal: youth will find a way. You say "Always two adults." They say "Thanks for the training, me and my buddies are gonna keep the $28 registration fee, buy some provisions, and hike and camp on our own. You say "Unisex". They say "No worries, my buddies (male and female) are going to camp on gampa's back nine that weekend." You say "No purple tents." They say, "No problem. No tents!" You say "Arrowmen: 1st Class Patch. Troop camping nights count only," They say, "Keep your sash, The ladies and I are gonna build this bridge in this camp over here." And frankly, I'm fine with that. I'll teach them the skills, and review their plans if they knock on my door. I don't check membership cards. The boys with the cards can earn bling if they want to and when they've got the skills and the plans, go hiking and camping with their mates -- their real patrol ... not the one defined by their membership restrictions. As far as I can tell. It's not a matter of if the greatest character-building organization this nation has ever known will be co-ed. It's a matter of if BSA will be that organization.

We're scouters. We get paid in smiles. 'nuff said. Like the smiles on the boys who were elected as PLs at last night's CoH.

You never overlapped with @@Kudu I took a paraphrase from his personal judgement: - A patrol leader's primary responsibility is to qualify to take his boys hiking and camping. - A patrol's job is to go hiking and camping as an independent unit led by their PL. A bit paltry, but the main reason I like that two-liner is that it's directive and paints a crisp picture. In addition: I take Webster's definition of patrol and work with that a little. Sometimes, because a lot of my youth are of Judeo-Christian background, I throw in a metaphor like "spy out the land" (hearkening back to the patriarchs Joshua and Caleb). For details, I send folks to the boy's handbook. If everyone in the room has SM's handbooks, you can use those.

Arab American in the room here ... There's a dish called kibbee made of cracked wheat and ground meat (traditionally lamb, beef will do, but if you've caught a deer well with grinding a pound for this recipe). Spices/fillings include garlic, onions, pine nuts or cashews, and peppermint. It cooks up quite nicely in a foil pack or in a shallow D/O. Also stuffed grape leaves are pretty awesome if picked in the spring! Lots of recipies for that too. Oh, and then there's the pizzelle iron. I have a short-handled one that fits in my camp-box. On the bucket list: learning to grind spices (wild anise, etc ...) on the trail.

I was pleasantly surprised by our RT. We had SPLs come out and describe thier troops to pack leaders. The boys who made it really represented their units well, and some of them contributed to subsequent brainstorming for topics for future RT's. But, it would have definitely been awesome to have an SPL bring his PLs and say, "These are my homies, they take care of our boys!" Then he would recognize the most unique feature of each patrol.

Actually, for orienteering, I found the white boards quite handy! However, a one-hour course where folks had not read up on the material is completely unrealistic -- be it indoors or out. Now, if all the other courses were outdoors or in isolated shelters, 10-15 minutes apart and unmarked with just coordinates and a top-map ... well, we wouldn't need the orienteering lecture, would we?

One of my favorite "less-than-a-minute minutes" that you are welcome to share: What rank do you boys want to be by the time you age out of our troop? I know we'd like all of you to be first class scouts. Some of you aspire to Star, Life, Eagle, and maybe a few palms. We'd love to support you in that. But most importantly we'd like you to be the best scout that a fella ever knew. I've been around, and met a quite a few scouts, but only one qualifies as best. His name is Jeff, he aged out at Second Class. He was a troop treasurer and patrol leader. He had a knack for finding arrowheads ... and picking hidden monuments to hike to. But, none of that made him best, it just made him interesting. Before all that ... one day Jeff invited me to join his troop. I could have wasted a lot of time not scouting if it weren't for him. And for that I'm forever grateful. That's what makes him the best scout I ever knew. Maybe one day you too will qualify as the best scout a fella ever knew.

I was talking about perceptions. But, in fact, what youth had a hand in the policy that units should be sex-segregated across the nation -- no matter what youth in any particular hollow thought about it? Really, have you polled every troop in the nation to determine what the youth wanted for their particular community? My general perception is that most boys and girls are fine with sex-segregation until they see the other sex doing something that they'd enjoy, or until they go to world jamboree, or are visited by scouts from another nation, or until they are a lodge chief and learn about a young woman who is a first-class scout ... absent the patch ... and to the adults in the room, the patch becomes their paper tiger.

I loaned my sewing kit on several occasions to scouts who wanted to wear their Eagle patch while some activity long before their court of honor. (Note to self: need to restock white/silver thread.) Otherwise, I would never have a scout remove his Life insignia. The silver birdie warrants an oval behind it if it's on a field uniform!

I think this is a really good plan. UoS is also the best way to "throw down the gauntlet" to other troops to step up their game. The down-side is you might be stuck with the same length for each course so you might want to re-balance the load. Talk to the course coordinators early and often about that. I also suspect that folks might only attend some courses in your track, so take some from your "100 best" and insert into the other courses (e.g. "5 Best Hikes" in backpacking, "5 Best Places for a Trail Breakfast" in cooking, etc ... sort of a Boys' Choice Award). Definitely have your boys teach the courses while adults assist with props and audio visuals. It's a serious time commitment for your boys, so figure out an appropriate award. (Ideally this could include a campout that weekend in the vicinity of the course -- perhaps really close to where the dutch oven course is ) Be prepared for a "next step", Some of your boys/adults may be asked to visit a troop or patrol to help them lay out a solid 1-2 year plan that gets them where they want to be.

Their trademark and logo still includes "YMCA" so as not to be confused with "YWCA". Re-branding rarely improves membership. As @@NJCubScouter noted, for a decade and a half starting in 1972, this organization's logo used "Scouting/USA". Didn't go very well. Of course, the re-branding was linked to a number of changes that didn't appeal to folks. But the logo-shift certainly didn't help. In the near term "Boys" in the name carries a lot of credibility. It marks the things that a youth who would commit to this sort of thing in his/her formative years is looking for. I've talked to attendees of several world jamborees (starting years ago with my buddy who had gone to national jambo with me a year or two earlier). Some BSA members were more positively enthused than others about the co-ed contingents. None of them were patently offended by them. Scouts from other countries seem to see our sex-segregation as one more bastion of adult micro-management.

Patrol wants to find out about activity X. Asks SM about it. He/she says "I don't know, but someone from the crew just came back from there." PL talks to venturer. He/she says "Yep, it was cool. Hears what we needed to do to get there." PL gets idea in his little head. Gets his buddies to build skills and raise funds. Other scenario: new leaders cross over who are Wevelos IiI types. Venturer devotes his/her time and talents to explaining youth leadership ... perhaps by holding special "parents only" discussions 300 feet away from little Johnny. Parents get it into their head that they want the same for little Johnny. SM drops by for coffee. Boys lead. Other scenario: venturer masters a skill better than anyone in the community. Troop would like the best possible person to present on that topic. Venturer provides demonstration/counsels. Boys learn. Some other less skilled adult signs MB.paperwork. Yep, I can see why an SM wouldn't want that for his/her troop. It just gets ideas in boys heads ...

Oh, fer the love of commerce, ppl! Have you never looked at the back pages of Boy's Life? I used to spend as much time reading ads as I did memorizing the jokes and riddles! Never once did I misconstrue the levitating car plan advertisement for advice in one of Green Bar Bill's sidebars!

Boil some frogs and you'll understand. The idea is to get a volume of youth passing through from which a percentage will get comfortable with the notion of shelling out $700-plus-transport for a HA week in the following year(s). Much of this seems like the downstream effect of lackluster jamboree attendance relative to completely unrealistic goals -- assuming that 7% of membership would participate when never in history has more that 4.8% attended.

I know boys who don't like it but still go along to be with their friends. A couple of weekends a year, or twelve weekends in one year ... And yes Eagle is still available to them. There's one such boy in every bunch. If he mends gear, keeps the scout house clean, fundraises, lines up presenters for meetings, or masters first aid, I'm fine with it. For some scouts, camping is the side show to an otherwise full life. When that scout drags his buddies down to the lowest common denominator, (e.g., schlepping at momma''s house while she serves them up pizza and cannoli, and picks up after them ...) That's when I have a problem.

@@Stosh, you are 100 percent correct. BSA doesn't need to generate adult-oriented courses on this stuff. You point out the opportunities out there. There are probably some deserving young adults or youth who would, for a generous tip and free meals, walk a newbie through all of this stuff. And for challenge activities, professional guides are worth emptying the wallet (consider it making up for all those years not scouting ). What I'm saying: if anyone wants a generic program under BSA auspices, it already exists. It's called the trail to first class. Let adults walk it. Let the units they serve guide them through it. (Maybe give those JASMs some real jobs. ) Then, let earning that rank make a scouter eligible for Star/Life/Eagle, Powderhorn, Woodbadge, or whatever. Now, if you think T2FC, as delivered in a scouter's unit (maybe with a little outside help for new units) is not good enough to get adults on par with those basic outdoor skills, ask yourself one question: why are we wasting our boys' time asking them to go through it?

The OP was not asking about developmental psychology, and we're not talking about single-handed knot gimmicks (which I still only get about 30% of the time on the first try). He was asking about outdoor adventure training ... for which we seem to have a delusion that some three hour gear-and-lecture plus training weekend will get an adult from 0 to 60 (60 being where some CO would trust that the trainee has something to offer his kid). We all definitely need that basic class on developmental stuff ... if only to get whatever management-speak we've been burdened with over the years out of our heads. But even then, much of that can be gained by watching an alumnus of a green bar patrol keep everyone on task and enjoying themselves over a weekend. Heck, I still needed basic parenting lessons when my kids were entering scouting. (According to my kids, I could stand to take a refresher ) But ... earfuls of that stuff will still still leave you unprepared for what the wilderness has to offer. Why? Because none of that makes you a 1st class scout (the concept, not the patch). Read a handbook. Practice the handbook. Take your time. As needed, get help from someone who mastered a chapter. Get evaluated and accept feedback. When the time is right have someone you trust review your plan. Implement it. That is how DiL, with no prior experience in her youth because such doors were locked unto her, after five years was able to leave me and Son #1 to our vices and rest easy with two girlfriends in a wilderness recreation area for three days straight. We talk boy-led, but we often ignore that boys could also lead earnest adults. My SM in my youth had been "trained" in outdoor skills by some senior scouts from another troop. That, plus roundtables that spent minimal time on paper-pushing made him a pretty sharp cookie.

@@Hedgehog, I like your sense ... I think you may know what's coming from me next ... Here's how I would run it: Devise a reference book that would give a general outline of the basic elements of such an activity ... including things like citizenship and knowing your rights and responsibilities ... maybe in chapters for each element, and check-lists at the back to keep track of when a reader's mastered each. Offer chapter-length detailed literature for each element. Nothing fancy, just black-and-white, maybe a few drawings/photos, available online in basic text format to keep costs down. Some of the booklets would have essential skills like camping, first-aid, environment, fitness, citizenship. Others could be about elective things that depend on what's available in your area in terms of activity or industry. Arrange 1 or 1.5 hour weekly meetings for a month or two to practice the basic elements. This would include ordering maps/descriptions of nearby points of interest, and contacting land-owners who might be generous with their property. It might involve calling someone between the age of 11 and 111 who's done this sort of thing on a regular basis to come and coach for the duration. Assign one in every 8 people to double check mastery of skills in their small group. Task that one person with qualifying to take his/her patrol hiking and camping. You may want to segregate patrols by age, or not ... if grandpa and granddaughter are both novices and want to learn together, put them in a group who will likely welcome them without bias. After a it seems that a few of these patrol leaders have mastered some skills, task them with arranging a weekend and procuring a minimum of gear. Maybe the organization who is loaning you meeting space can help you with this. Shake-down the meeting before departure to make sure everyone has equipped sufficiently for a safe and enjoyable time. Enjoy that weekend. Reflect on what went well, what went not so well, what to do differently next time. Repeat monthly. Invite different "experts" on a will-work-for-food basis to teach a slightly different activity (backpacking, fishing, canoeing, wilderness survival, wilderness first aid). Have some of those experts available for personal instruction to any youth or adult who would like to explore the pamphlets on specific elements and master them in detail. (Maybe on a will-work-for-coffee basis.) Publicly recognize each person who masters those skills, youth or adults, possibly with a material reward like: Oval pieces of cloth embroidered with noble emblems. Require everyone to earn at least a few of these to the end that they officially qualify to take their patrol hiking and camping. Or, maybe round pieces of cloth for mastering specific elements in those little booklets. Maybe after so many little cloth medallions (say 21, or 24 if you think booklets involving marketing, pedagogy, and project management are necessary) you can give out a medal, Have a big party every now and than to recognize everyone who mastered a skill, maybe have the papers come in and take a photo when grandpa and his granddaughter get that medal. When will we stop trying to re-invent the wheel?

@@ianwilkins, thanks for pointing out how much the BSA micromanages the simplest decisions a leader can make! We would do well to understand that some of our Youth Protection stipulations are based purely on image and not substance. But ... To clarify the adventure ... "Temps approaching zero" that would be centigrade, right? Zero Fahrenheit, I tend not to worry about youth sleeping because things are as dry as they are cold.

@@Hedgehog, I like the plan. Enjoy it. There is something to be said for having spent a weekend or two with a young woman before she decides to date your son! Yes, PDA is discussed in Venturing. It's fairly amusing. If you've got a crew of freshmen, they'll draft a bunch of regulations that they'll later come to regret. It does depend on the group. Growing up, ours spent a lot of time together ... as much as scouting. Most of us went to the same school, so we looked forward to weekend retreats. Mostly it was cabin camping. When it was tents, they borrowed the troop's gear. We built a lot of trust, just like a well-oiled troop does when the boys finally figure out leadership and integrity. So, we did a lot of stuff (mission trips, visit jails, etc ...). I could see us being trusted in large numbers on our own for a day (check-in at breakfast, dinner, and lights out). My kids' youth group .. not so much. Different schools, lots of newbies, etc ... So my kids use what they learned in scouting to make outings run smoothly. Anyway, I couldn't imagine our church tolerating much more than a 10:2 adult:youth ratio. However, I've seen other groups pull it off. But I think I steered us away from the point. What we are asking kids to do (e.g. the pic's from National with adults never too far away), is something that in the due course of time many will no longer see the point in doing. One of the images that needs to be part of the national promotion is the SM and ASM making for the nearest coffee shop while the boys plan an overland excursion to procure forgotten pierogies.

First, welcome! There is more "follow-your-heart" stuff to this than the program would lead you to believe. First, there is no harm in not getting a belt loop. Second absolutely encourage the parent and child to pursue this on their own. Finally, no, you don't have to bring the whole den again, but keep an open mind. If that family is into some sport that would be really fun for the boys to see, and few of you could make the time to join him, go for it!

Just from my experience ... There is a vast difference between a march in bear country and some paper-pushing homework assignment. Think about it this way: your sons friends friends have been denied the opportunity to practice outdoor learning and leadership, so they haven't been in a position of "overwhelming tasks" where they needed to trust someone else with details. They are denied the opportunity to practice servant leadership, so they become good managers ... maybe too good. The goofball doesn't go away when the girls are there around the clock. Just trust me on this. "Popular" young women also join venturing (I've fielded several on the homecoming court). Sometimes, they just a place where they can be goofballs without trying to impress anyone. I suspect the same would apply to middle-school women if we gave them a chance. As for toughness, how many young female settlers walked from one side of this country to the other? Don't doubt their ability, just regret their lack of training and conditioning. Make the girls' dads an offer. Pick a nice 15-miler for starters. See what comes of it. Enjoy your journey to the "dark side" we have cookies.

I understand. But, I can find ten times as many kids on our city streets unchaperoned for more cumulative hours a week than that. On a vacation week in Europe there are trains full of em gawking at the American kids being herded by their adult minders. You're presuming that the level of discipline among youth is always inadequate for them to travel in large numbers relative to the adults present. That's not the case. Now some infamous church gatherings in history have had a reputation for "more souls being conceived than saved", but that risk is hardly mitigated by excess adults. It just encourages our at-risk youth to avoid the influence of abstinent youth. If we cannot accept that our youth should arrive at a level of maturity to function independently overnight well before their 18th birthday, we will lose them as they go and exercise that developmentally appropriate function elsewhere.