qwazse

Maybe "in play" is a more appropriate term.

@@ianwilkins and @@Cambridgeskip, as with most things there is no single cause. I don't have statistics on APO, the college service fraternity (http://www.apo.org/Home) or the unit scouting reserve, my anecdote is that of the nearly 100 graduates from our troop and crew who I know, only one joined that organization. Education, war, etc ... cost more and pay less ... Thereby shrinking a young adult's free time. Parents of said adults are pulling double-shifts attempting to defray those costs. So, there are strong economic pressures working against our most vibrant Americans participating in the program (which itself is demanding more in fees and paperwork than it ever has before). Nevertheless, it betrays a decade of ignorance propagated by organizational deceit when you have volunteer and professional scouters who say, "Look to Venturing's vibrant growth as an example of the success we can have with a co-Ed program." (My paraphrase of several statements from different folks over the years.)

I had a moment to watch your show. Nice interview of one of our scouters. Let's clear up one assumption. There's a lot of marketing speak about the venturing program. Folks often cite the Venturing program as an example of a growth as a result of being open to girls. However that division is the most rapidly shrinking (down to 158k in 2014 from 192k in the previous year). If retaining members is any guide, it seems that our unisex divisions are the ones to follow.

Yeah, sure, fill out the form. After all, there's not enough meaningless paperwork out there already. It's not just your ink and paper (a multi-page form asking for a lot of detail regarding any incident). You need to gather witness statements -- including a statement from the rescued person. When you apply for this award for a scout our scouter, everyone involved in the incident has to buy in that his action was a big deal. If you have your doubts, don't waste other people's time.

I look at it this way: zero volunteers = not really that important. Like 'rat said, give it a year or two then dust the idea off the shelf. In the mean time, coach DLs in designing an active summertime program for their den.

I disagree. BSA would only accrue the girls interested maximizing their outdoor skills. They are mainly girls who were already done after a year of brownies. A generous guess would put that at about 20% of all American women. That's just market share. The yield from that number would, of course be smaller. GSUSA's base is not disenchanted in the least. They are a fun lot to be around, if you get an invite to help, do so. (While there, encourage moms to get the maximum outdoor education training that they can.)

This is indeed one of those "know it when you see it" kind of things. Especially when it comes to aquatics, we should all be in the business of forestalling death. And from your son's perspective he was doing what he was trained (formally and informally) to do whenever you're in a pool. As a life guard, I'm trained to do a little bit more ... but our situations are the same. We go about our day making sure everyone is fine. In a pool you almost expect someone to have trouble, so you go about your business with one eye toward preventing a bad situation (mammals thinking they're fish) from ending badly. Part of training backpackers is to get in the habit of considering the slowest person in the party, making sure each load is balanced on each back and across the hikers, keeping and eye on frayed equipment, knowing where the 1st aid kid is, who's got a neckerchief to spare, etc ... Proper routine attentiveness will avert ruinous calamity. So, for instance, splinting up an injured hiker found along a trail and adjusting your routine to make sure rescue arrives is noble, but really not out of the ordinary. It's when you perform that way when you are out of your routine (e.g. you're in your Sunday best and hear a toddler-sized splash from a supposedly empty pool some distance away, or at a scenic rest area and barely hear a cry for "help" 200 feet below ...). The times and places where that "mentally awake at all times" kicks in for a scout while in the majority of others that "still small voice" would be ignored ... that's where we start to identify that "uncommon concern and exceptional character."

I kinda understood what your saying, and my main observation is: the SM is usually not that guy. Even if he knew a thing or two, parents rarely see him as someone whose correction they'd heed. Usually, when moms or dads come to me with above my pay-grade issues, I will ask, "Is there someone who you (and the other party, if any) will listen to if they told you what you need to do differently?" If someone is willing to sit with me by the fire after the kids are in bed, they might get a little of what slice of wisdom I may have. There might be some water in this old rock, but it would take some time squeezing to get at it.

Me too. But try parsing this ... http://www.scouting.org/filestore/program_update/pdf/Transitioning_New_Requirements_2016.pdf "For 2016: • Boys joining on or after Jan. 1, 2016 MUST use the new requirements. • Boys who have joined prior to Jan. 1, 2016: • Who are working on the Scout badge MAY continue to work on the existing requirements, but MUST convert to the new requirements upon completion of the Scout badge. • Who are working on Tenderfoot through First Class MAY continue to work on the existing requirements, but MUST convert to the new requirements upon attaining First Class. • Who have completed First Class MAY complete the rank they are currently working on in the existing requirements, but then MUST convert to the new requirements for subsequent ranks." Given that, in concept, a boy starts on Tenderfoot the minute he completes Scout, if your boys join their troop and rank up before New Years, they can work with the old T2F requirements for one more year. Which is stupid. Just get everone working on the new requirements ASAP. Have fun.

It's an original from my advisor's school of hard knocks. Feel free to to quote me the next time someone whines that crews steal boys from troops, or some DE spouts off that female venturers will help us boost membership. Not until they come with their own boat ...

My experience: Girls ain't honey and boys ain't flies.

Life is so much better when the CC and ASM's take up the slack on this. I've reached the point where I'm the old-guy-in-the-room most places, so when I rattle off parenting advice, folks actually think I know what I'm talking about. SM's are really glad when they don't have to deal with minutiae from anyone except his PL's. There are precious few things a parent needs to really talk to the SM about. (Some examples: "I made some extra cookies. Mind if Johnny brings them to the meeting?", "I have this prime camping spot and it's free every third weekend.", "I'm a trained EMT/lifeguard/belly dance instructor ... certifications up to date ... just in case your program needs it.") Sure there are some serious things, but those should always be with the understanding that the SM will get advice from or direct them to anther trustworthy adult who knows how to help.

Dispel any illusions that an Leader's biases won't bleed through. The crew was putting final plans in on their upcoming survival weekend in the mountains. And I told them a friend in a nearby Christian commune invited me to their community caroling night. They all thought it would be a neat side trip once the finished their shelters and had dinner. Then the President asked, "How did you come to have a friend in a Christian commune?" "Talking to strangers." I replied. "I shouldn't have asked, and don't want to know more!" He concluded.

Your horror stories make me proud of (The Great) Seneca district and how they train their FoS volunteers in the utmost courtesy.

@@Stosh, I sincerely wish that there were enough caring and capable adults in the world -- and childhood was extended enough -- to offer any panoply of configurations a kid could wish for. We all know that in small-town America ... even in certain distressed urban areas ... that's just not the case. Somebody somewhere always winds up in a situation that doesn't suit their palate. In spite of its omission from the title ... this is about the patrol method, how much folks feel that exclusively "male" (or at least unisex) participants are to its implementation, and what other trade-offs one might be willing to make. Obviously, none of us know what novel thing we'll put up with or rail against until someone we care about wants to try it. Thus "thought experiment". If anyone finds it untenable, no one's stopping them from fabricating their own simulated district.

It's called an application because you are asking permission to participate in scouting according to the principles of the organization (I.e., those words you're supposed to say every night.) It sounds like you have proof that the applicant is not brokering in good faith.

My versions of reality never have enough detail. Not sure if I would handle the situation differently in either case. Let's just have you navigate the problem with the last such boy (and his family) who came to you with such a situation. So, maybe your cubs have sisters around a lot, but for me, I had last helped a neighbor's kid who never was in cub scouts. If you think it matters ... let us know who that kid was. @@Stosh and @@sst3rd, Not everyone lives in such a scouting-rich territory. But, I guess telling a boy to forgo scouting because no unit is good enough for him is a valid strategy if you sincerely think it will give him the best personal growth. My pics, I think, are 1 or 2. I'd encourage the boy to consider those two. Although it's not my favorite I've seen kids do okay in adult-lead troops. And, I'm thinking a boy is more likely find himself among friends if his patrol is all guys.

This is an extrapolation on my understand of how my Czech friends say scouting panned out in their district. Suppose the GS/USA never promotes a vision of hiking and camping independently with your mates, COs started insisting on such a program for girls and boys, and a few soft hearted scouters pull it together -- possibly within the BSA but maybe under another umbrella with similar street cred (so much so, that congress gives it a charter after decades of not bothering with such niceties). You had only access to three units in your area: - an all-male troop with a reputation for "high-speed, low-drag" adult led micro management. They look impressive though ... All those great gateways that only licensed contractors could build. Nice-looking parlor scouts. etc ... - a troop with female patrols and male patrols, they always do things together with few independent activite smainly because some of the parents don't want to muck about with activity logistics. The advancement program seems fair and rigorous, however. With youth accountable to their PLs for T2FC. - a troop with fully independent patrols -- seemingly age based -- full-on PM camping 100 yards apart. Each patrol is mixed boys and girls. The venture patrol is saving up for a boat at Seabase. They are mentoring the PLC which this year includes a female SPL and male ASPL. Which troop(s) would you recommend to an 11 year old boy in your charge?

@@Hedgehog, I would have never guessed. So, how do you work with a boy on this one? Obviously you know the boundaries! Plus, you clearly have boys who are going to try every outing imaginable. (Not to mention boys from other troops whose SM sent them your way.) How to convert every action into bling is the last thing on their mind (thank goodness)! Furthermore, the only reason I bother with the GTA is to send adults on their merry way. I don't expect boys to wade through it or blogs. Etc .... The reqs, the pamphlet, and his counselor should be all he needs for any determination. So, knowing there's guys like me who want the process to minimize pencil whipping and maximize reflection, what do you do? What might you do differently after hearing us blather on?

The badge card is a half-decent backup for the blue card. Your troop should have one third of that card in their records, and your counselor (or the summer camp) should have the other third. sometimes, boys neglect to get their third of the card from the SM when they turn it in, so you should talk to him/her first. Either third will help you in a pinch. Here's how it happens in our council: The scout fills in the Eagle application based on the information available to him. Often there is an adult in the troop responsible for recording advancement and will be able to privide a print-out of what they recorded. (He/she probably won't even charge for the ink and paper.) After his scoutmaster conference, the scouts application gets turned in at council HQ. Since we are nearby, we often have they boy take it in himself. Every bit of data on that application is cross-checked with council records. They will point out, for example, if the date you earned camping MB on your application was one day off from the date on their records. If that happens, you will pull out your blue card (or the copy of the troop's portion if you didn't have yours). They will pull out their advancement sheets, and make whatever correction is necessary so that all of their data is consistent. After all of the information is confirmed to be correct, they will file your application and let your district advancement chairperson know that you are ready to schedule your board of review. Every council works differently regarding the details, but basically you want to make sure you have a complete record as you fill out your application.

I meant to +1 @@JoeBob. Sorry, all thumbs!

So, if the boys arrive on site Friday AM and build an Adirondack, and sleep in it for the reminder of the weekend, they've racked up 2 camping nights? What if they add a fourth wall and door the second night? Does only the first one count? Why are adults counting camping nights anyway? Here's what I expect from counselors: - The boy should read the requirement on his own. - The boy would then list the campouts he's been on and the number of nights he would like to count from each. Maybe he gets help from the troop scribe, who might have event attendance accurately tracked ... More or less. - He would show the list to his counselor, who would then ask about any questionable ones, have the boy review the requirement, and determine together how many (if any) of the nights would fairly meet the requirements. - They would then tally the nights that the boy can say fairly met the requirements. Then the lay out a plan for the other events he'd need to participate in to accomplish the remaining for the requirement. If the boy forgot to include a campout, that's his problem. If he included one that some of us would not have, that's the counselor's problem. It's all part of teaching our youth to make ethical decisions.

Useful to whom? I'd have a friend at the bottom of 8 ft at a youth-group pool party if I hadn't learned the signs of drowning. Dinner came and I was the next to the last one out. Lifesaving training kicked in: scan the surface, identify distressed swimmer, approach from behind, reach. Get food like nothing happened.

Every council is different. In our council: Our SM conferences partly help the boy prepare for the EBoR. We (usually a couple of ASMs join in) always ask about religion and try to help the boy give an answer that he feels comfortable with. For some boys this is the first time they've been asked to lay out how they work the 12th point of the scout law, and they find putting words to their thoughts a rewarding exercise. A boy may ask for more than one conference if he feels unprepared for the EBoR. All of the boy's advancement records, along with his youth application, are reviewed by council prior to him getting the all-clear to schedule a board of review. Blue cards are crossed-checked with advancement reports. We SM/ASMs introduce the scout to the EBoR then leave and wait elsewhere. Our boards are comprised of the troop/crew committee (the boy's parents excepted) and one or two members of the district advancement committee, and on occasion prominent members of the community. The district representatives are the "quality control" and answer to the Council Advancement Chairman. I have never heard of any problems with our district representatives. They are very good about coaching new committee members. All and all, I like the process because it gives our committee some quality feedback from the best and brightest in our troop.

More things to referee. I've told scouts flatly if they haven't given a day in service at each rank, what kind of scout do they think they are?