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@Scouting412, welcome to the forum. And my apologies for letting life get in the way of helping to roll out University of Scouting for Laurel Highlands Council. We could have met, I could have served you some insanely good espresso, and I would have advised you to hop on these forums for even better ideas. Besides referring you here I would have advised: Your job, based on your position, is to assist the scoutmaster. If he/she feels you’ve done that, you’re golden. Pandemics are a drag, but don’t use them as an excuse. Elections: only vote on SPL. Let him pick his assistant. Divide patrols (if they aren’t obvious already) based on friendships and who will be least likely to bully someone else. Each patrol elects their leader. Go through the patrol building steps … name, flag, yell, etc … Opening flag, do roll call by patrols. This can be fun. Not much of a hiker? Dude, start walking! Get dahntahn with the boys and check out the trees and lights! We’ve made hiking out to be this complex activity. Keep it simple, have fun!

But couldn’t one also say that about litigants? Have they done the really hard work of determining how safe the nation’s youth will be absent BSA (and the slew of other organizations now hesitant to front youth programs)? Isn’t looking for “the next big stick” an addiction of its own? I follow your stories because relaying them is the most authentic way I can communicate to my scouts why some adults are taking their camps from them and driving the costs of being in their organization to unprecedented heights. I also hope that it will help an abused youth to find the strength to come forward sooner rather than later. I also follow them because it reminds me that youth become more resilient more safely with me than elsewhere. I look at boys and girls who want to hike and camp safety, and I pick the organization best suited to train them and other young adults to do that. Then I stand in a field on a Saturday night watching their campfires fade praying they grow strong and good. That’s my amends. Not waiting for BSA to do anything transformative. But, when I have a moment I’ll type my short list.

Define “failure”. Guys like me will still take boys camping. There is a body of literature that will enable us to do so well into the future. There are people/entities who will let us camp on their land. We will rely on our state’s mandatory background checks, maybe.

I could trust some of my scouts/venturers with a skill saw more than I could trust myself. Simply put, all of that vocational training was fresh in their minds. Meanwhile a few nicks on my hide here and there had betrayed long lost vo-tech lessons. Even as a youth, I really shouldn’t have been trusted with a belt sander when I was working on my Eagle project. But then I’m not sure if I asked permission from my folks to use it.

@NealOnWheels and @69RoadRunner, there is a FB group dedicated to Dolly Sods. Lots of pictures, but also discusses issues like LNT, traffic, hunting, edible plant seasons, etc…

If your scouts like wilderness, that’s as good as it gets on the east coast. Note that wilderness recreation areas should not be traversed in groups larger than 10. When our troop and crew were large, we planned a different itinerary for each patrol.

We might consider that to be a poor choice of words, but I’m certain the choice was made very deliberately. The marketing double-speak still considers “Family Scouting” to sell better than, co-Ed, mixed sex, Cub Scouts for girls, or any other such plain spoken title.

Excessive risks for what? What is the negative outcome for the scout when he/she takes aim at a target depicting a creature, throws a ball at fellow scout in a catch-or-evade challenge, deploys a super-soaker instead of a mobile heat-stroke abatement device, attends a political rally in uniform, shares a tent with someone of the opposite sex, is one-on-one with a trained scouter, or spends an hour on the road to camp? What is the rate of negative outcome from the activity (per time involved therein) relative to: the rate of positive outcomes as a result of the activity, the rate of the same negative outcome when scouts or other youth do not do the activity. Under what conditions (e.g. NCS supervised, ethics training, resilience building, etc …) are those rates altered? The G2SS comes off as a bunch of disjointed pronouncements because it doesn’t present outcomes and admit if certain relative risks are unknown.

If only my buddy could keep his family business rolling. A small order of fries from the Original Hot Dog shop would feed a troop! I have put my plans for an urban trek on the back burner. This town would be ideal for it. But, my personal favorite for a few days backpacking is Dolly Sods wilderness.

If I’m not mistaken, the institution head signs the app. But, it’s been a while since I’ve read that fine print.

I repeatedly try to convince my adults that permission slips are the best way of unit-to-scout-to-parent communicate. This is from my experience as a scout … especially as an SPL coordinating drivers. We scouts filled in the details on the slips three meetings in advance of the event, we returned them two meetings minus go time so that each PL could plan accordingly during the meeting before the event. They seem to be of the mindset that a half dozen redundant Emails and texts are more efficient. At the Cub level? When all parents attend? I’m not so sure how helpful they would be.

If the boys are both passionate about the church, encourage that. But if they haven’t even started writing a proposal, I’d take it as a sign that they aren’t all that passionate. Encourage them be aware of what the other members of the church — not just one other scout — are doing. If you have any association with the church let the clerk of session know that these boys are probably some months away from implementing any service project and that whatever each comes up should be somewhat independent of the other. Then walk away. These are Life scouts. It’s for them to sort out with their mutual beneficiary. P.S. - this could be a win-win. With projects these days requiring two-deep adult supervision, a larger adult pool should translate into more time when the scouts could be adequately supervised.

It’s taken our community’s parents almost a decade (and I think four spun-off troops) to realize that. That said, I feel bad that the latest troop needed to merge back with us. (The only problem as far as I could tell was that their adult leadership had not fostered replacements.) They met on a different night from us (as opposed to spin-offs 1, 2, and 3), and filled a niche for boys who would be otherwise occupied on our night. I do think that’s the other formula for growth. Find niches. Unfortunately that kind of insight has to come from the outside. But, with districts as big as they are, nobody is really positioned to tell to troops how to adjust their schedules to attract different youth.

My childhood troop had been started a few years earlier with help from the loan (donation?) of an SPL of the troop my SM was assigned to start as a member of the CO. So, instead of going to training. Training came to him. I didn’t appreciate it then. But now … Look at your top scout. Think of going to him/her and saying, “It’s time for you to finish your tenure in a unit of newbies down the road.”

I’ve seen everything done. My ventures once ditched an area event that they had been dying to go to for year — all for some last minute party conjured by the popular kid. The other adult and I went and had a great time counseling other venturers. That and other events gave me these lessons learned: Do it for you. Yeah, sure we’re in this for the kids. Whatever. But if it’s not something that gives you joy even if one parent and kid show up, you’ll add to your misery. Aim for the event to be top-notch on your scouts’ criteria — nobody else’s. That way they will brag about it when they get home. At last nights CoH there were the usual advancements, followed by two very moving Eagle awards, but the highlight were the “fun awards” where the ASPL and SPL thanked a few key scouts for the spice that they added to activities. (Hint: none involved anything that would be listed in he Insignia Guide.) We are scouters in the culture we live in. Not the one we want to live in. Especially at the Cub level, boys and girls are still learning what’s important to them and their parents. They don’t communicate it well. That will be reflected in their participation. Teach youth that they will get out what they put in. Eagles aren’t recognized because they earned some badge. They are recognized as people who dive in and get everything they can out of it. When you do have parents who unanimously put scouting up high on priority it’s great, but when a number don’t it’s important to stay in the proper head space.

The reason why you can't find any is because there is none. The Lion and Tiger program are, however, very focused on the relationship between parent/guardian and child. The scout would not be getting the full benefit of the program without them. Wolf through AoL programs center around the den leaders, so parent's (aside from a 2nd registered 21+year old of requisite gender) aren't really needed for den meetings. Pack-meetings, let's be honest, are really about showing off to the parents and other dens. So, you definitely want them around then. If the scouts are traveling any distance, having a parent in the room definitely helps in the handling of emergencies.

Camp (not the council’s crown jewel, an older — maybe oldest — land trust) was full this weekend. Our neighbors, about 200 yards off, were new girls’ troop. The usual female who camped with them was not available so the SM’s spouse came along. She was no fan of camping and this was a brutal weather even for those of us who were. It wasn’t warm enough to stay thawed, nor cold enough to keep the precipitation from crawling through your clothes. I praised her effusively for coming along with her scouts. However I’d write, it would have to include high praise for such people. Related to that, I would ask leaders to walk a mile in their scouts’ boots. Go through the Handbook and try to earn 1st class, getting signed off by their senior scout along the way.

@InquisitiveScouter, in causal modeling, it is irresponsible to suggest that variables that have not been measured would take precedence without identifying exactly what hasn’t been measured and how much hasn’t been explained. So, for example, if you say the changes in some species could be explained by some non-climate related variable. The argument only holds water if the de-tractor names the causal variable (e.g. vampire zombies) and the degree to which it impacts the outcome (e.g. they sucked the brains of 10 of the 15000 birds examined, although interesting, does not make it a causal factor). In other words, saying ornithologists are taking cheap shots is exactly what someone who can only make cheap shots would say. Anybody with something credible to say would propose a mediator, its magnitude, and any assumptions underlying its proposition.

@Armymutt, unfortunately, we lack data on the probability that abuse would ensue given x nights of camping. In my troop very few parents join us, so it’s a non-issue. The parent who camps more than once is given an application if they aren’t registered already. @MattR, Assuming that any of elder or deacon might serve youth, my church had all of us on the board get the PA clearances. I like the notion of a good old Interpol check. But that is just a part of the equation.

A parent may attend multiple weekend camp outs without being registered, but there comes a point where they do more than keep an eye on their scout. They effectively volunteer with the program. In PA, that would justify background clearances. Our IH and COR make sure we’re on our toes with that. I like parents to go through YPT. It’s far easier for me if they know the rules than if I have to explain the buddy system repeatedly. Registration would be gravy. But it’s incidental to what I need to secure a youth’s well-being.

However, were you going to a friend’s farm or relative’s camp (the more frequent scenario facing most scouts) that check would not be required. Were you to go there for more than three days, BSA would require a registration and (presumably) background check while the friend or relative may not. So depending on the specific activity, Canada will come off more or less strict than BSA’s 72 hour policy. When taking a crew to Seabase Bahamas, I needed a notarized statement from the parent of everyone under 18. This was more to address human trafficking than CSA. The parents being registered was a big help to me on that front. That was for reasons other than screening for CSArs. The fact that we all knew how to hold each other accountable was very helpful. PA’s mandatory reporter training has been helpful in coordinating volunteers across multiple organizations.

Their advocates will have us believe that not all victims of childhood sexual assault are litigants. So, no, by their own argument, we are not blaming survivors, or even a majority of them. If the current body of CSA litigants do comprise the majority of survivors, then BSA would be statistically 10 times as safe as the general population. It can't be both ways ... either yours are the minority of a sea of victims or, were we to investigate an organization with a similar number of youth, we would find 10 nightmares for every one of yours. As I testified elsewhere, my lived experience has been among survivors whose abusers had no part in scouting. So I do see a palpable risk that the diminution of national youth organizations could have serious unintended consequences -- not the least of which being under-served children's increased contact with potential abusers. Tossing around rhetoric about "blaming survivors" does nothing to allay that. As has been pointed out, not all litigants are CSA survivors, so yours may be the case of the day, but on these forums are other reports of claims against the organization. I find them helpful, because they do provoke thought. So, you are welcome to brag about how litigation makes an organization better, how the non-monetary terms will do wonders in making it even more trusted and it's youth safer -- if indeed, you can show some evidence that the process is doing that. But some of us are concerned about all the youth of the nation. Prove a net good for them.

Welcome to the forum. Tell your guide that some strangers on the internet think he/she is making an inappropriate suggestion. It might be appropriate if, while working your ticket, a patrol of scouts pitched in and they invited you personally to get your beads at their CoH. Troops should be youth lead, and any troop that lets any adult pile on their agenda is not a troop, and therefore not one where a reasonable scouter would want to be recognized. You're a district volunteer. Get beaded at a roundtable, an adult cracker-barrel at a camporee, or some other activity geared towards scouters.

Like @MattR, in mine or my kid's units, I have never experienced an absentee COR as you described. (As a youth, my COR introduced me to my Eagle project.) I think every COR who I worked with had a sense that among us might be a ne'er-do-well (let alone pedophile), so due diligence was in order. The word "liability" may not have even been uttered, but "keep our kids safe and leave the building tidy" motivated in the same direction. The most egregious thing about UMC's action seems to me that diligent COs are bearing the brunt of those professionals who knew slack charter's were being signed, but pushed their DE's to generate quantity over quality (also a familiar theme here). Blind rage is only that. If CO engagement really reduces liability, then we need real survey results with real numbers to back it up. It's too easy look at the blogged complaints of scouters here and generalize to the nation. But, supposing that's true. Then the worst thing litigants could do for our nation's youth is to discourage duly diligent CO's from engaging with them. P.S. - I'm still friends with the kids of the DE at the time when I was a youth. It warms my heart to see their pictures of him and his wife.

By that logic … if you were a CO … would you have a youth program AT ALL?