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@IrrationalGoat, welcome to the forums. And from this side of the internet you seem like the kind of scout any troop would love to have. Two pieces of literature to look at if your troop doesn’t already have them: The SPL Handbook The PL handbook As far as dividing patrols, I’d still segregate them by sex. It’s not how my European friends would do it, but it’s certainly what my Indonesian friends would do. There is something to be said for complying with an organization’s wishes. The key thing is that doing so guarantees that you’ll have a boy PL and assistant and girl PL and assistant … both sexes will have representation. For some girls, that will be very important. As far as meetings go, you could have one patrol be responsible for set-up and opening and the other responsible for closing and cleanup. Making sure they have responsibilities that they can take pride in is a good first step. Being SPL should be fun. Have you picked an ASPL who will help you make it so?

My apologies if I confuse anyone. But there is a distinction between substance dependence (very prevalent in our country) and substance abuse. Or, at least, there had been. The two obviously blend into one another. So much so that the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders now no longer makes that distinction, putting most of the symptoms under substance use disorder. (Data wonks may click here for more.) Based on recent surveys, it is very likely that at least one of the scouters and several parents in an average unit have an alcohol use disorder. Hopefully they will identify it, seek treatment and recover before scouts notice it. I’ve also learned that the high prevalence might be distinctly American, I saw a profound absence of Hungarian subjects with SUD (all young adults, the rate was low single digit) and when I contacted my colleagues about it, they said, “No, how much would you expect us to have?” Oh, and alcohol is the tip of the iceberg. Cannabis dependence is rising rapidly with the increasing availability. It’s a whole lot easier to conceal as well. So, going forward, substance use will continue to be a consideration with our young ASMs (or young adults in any youth program).

I’m saying that screening for predators starting with adults who are dependent on alcohol is likely to miss its mark. The link cannot possibly be causal to any high degree. Alcohol use disorders far outstrip rates of known sexual predation. This means that the preponderance of people who feel it’s their right to have a drink while taking care of youth will likely not be predators. That is not to say they should be given a pass. From my perspective, if one can’t go a week without a drink one has a problem. As a kid, scouting was a respite from alcohol-dependent adults (one errant college age ASM the notable exception); however, those adults did not abuse me or any other kid I know, and many fought the fiercest soldiers the world has ever known to keep the likes of us safe and speaking freely. So, with no malice towards such folks, and recognizing that other parts of the world think differently, I’d rather them not join us at camp if they’d rather imbibe — not because they might be predators — but because some scouts could use the break from reminders of their troubled homes. @johnsch322, let’s ignore your feeble attempt to paint me in a pale light. Are you saying that it would be worth our while investigating every alcohol dependent person for the risk they may pose as a predator? Seems to me that a predator need only sober up to fly under that radar. I need rules that actually make kids safer … not ones that constitute a witch hunt that ultimately leaves their risk for abuse unchanged.

This …. In addition to the collegiate ASM who couldn’t do without a bottle of cheap beer on a camp out, maybe @yknot should have ordered an investigation of the “… moms and wine in go cups around the camp fire.” @SSScout should have called the FBI on those boys who “wanted to be sociable.” @Armymuttshould do some soul searching about the risk he poses to our youth (given the point of this thread being that leading a unit makes demands on behavior at home), and certainly he should put chain-smoking-mom on a National d.q.-ed list. I do think there is some merit in seeing how much damage someone has done when a scout is found having stolen contraband. I don’t think there is a straightforward leap from substance dependence to child sexual abuse. (If only it were that easy.)

Would you therefore conclude that those with alcohol dependence (not abuse) should be targeted as potential sexual abusers?

@johnsch322, yeah, I recall a lot of anguish related to alcohol dependence/abuse in my family … but that’s balanced with a lot of memories that were positive. That included banter over brands. It’s not about bringing brands to camp, it’s about a shift in cultural norms. Most post-modern nomads are astounded by the indiscriminate preference of drink of the modern working man (and occasional female riveter). Regarding sexual abuse, my suspicion is that although predators may groom through sharing alcohol, alcohol dependent people (i.e., ones who think it’s an essential to survive camping with youth) are not at elevated risk to become sexual predators. They do pose a risk of kids finding their liquor and perpetuating a cycle of dependence. However, Scouts Germany don’t seem to have nearly the concerns that we do. Regardless, there was never any implication that anyone mentor an ASM to bring a preferred brand of alcohol to scout camp. Your friend read into that from the evils of his abuser. That’s on that wretched fiend, not us.

@SR70 on behalf of all the non-moderators, welcome to the forum. There’s no such thing as a busy parent. There are parents with priorities other than scouting. Pot luck is a common tradition, but if your Pack has built up the funds, there’s no harm in doing it differently. There’s always a balance between games and songs and skits and guest speakers. Leave that choice between the Cubmaster and Assistants. Your role as CC is hard enough without getting bogged down in those weeds.

I have no further comment except to say that: It was quite easy for Dad to quit drinking, at Mom's request. Neither my brothers nor I, having worked the business around the summers of our 11th year, drink but for rare occasions, and it when we do certainly is not beer. If there were Totin' Chits for alcohol use, we'd have the squarest corners, and I'd give Dad's well-timed mid-summer exposure to return cases with spilled half-used bottles of stale IC the credit.

.... finally found the cut-corner emoji ... 🛑

<Laughing out loud> Miners and maulers were not finicky. You'd have to travel in time to find a steelworker like my son who preferred crap craft beers instead. My dad, the main distributor of IC in the county, then retired, was the troop's CC at the time.

Nice, aspirational piece. It's sort of like the Totin' Chip corner-cutting argument. The objective is to allow a scout to continue having full access to his tools rather than isolate him (however briefly) and subject him to remedial training (however discrete). It gives the SPL/PL/Instructor the ability to assert, "You botched it this time, I know you can do better, carry on." We can prattle on about other mechanisms for discipline just like I can dial in a lecture for fitness. That's not bad. It's just much more fun and rewarding to "learn a little, do a lot."

I do not cut corners. I advise the PLC that they may do so … especially if there’s a spate of safety hazards involving sharps. Discretion is quietly asking a fellow scout for his Totin’ Chit, cutting the corner, and assuring him you trust he’ll do better and need advance no more on the trail-to-stop-sign.

Case in point. When I was a scout, a young ASM brought a bottle of alcohol (Iron City, to be exact) to camp. A scout found it and drank it. The committee dismissed the ASM and suspended the scout. Today, I am certain that legal action would be taken against our CO for corrupting the morals of a minor. I suspect that BSA’s “even outside of scouting” stipulations come from such litigation. As a consequence, hardship is foisted on young adults with high integrity because of young adults who lack integrity.

It’s a big country, and there certainly are troops that expressly say women aren’t welcome. But, I have tried to encourage moms to develop as ASMs or Co-Advisors and it’s just not done in our community. We have a culture where overwhelmingly dads are expected to camp with their children (both male and female). I personally thank every mom who comes camping with their troop because I know from experience what a rare breed they are. And, from my experience, it’s a generational thing. The now deceased great-grandmas and great aunts who I’ve talked to spent nights under canvas and took their kids camping. I think the pendulum is swinging back to that. The female execs who I’ve met aren’t mere administrative wonks. They understand the outdoors and working with boys and girls. But as they begin to have children, they’ll need the social supports to continue. That’s why single young adults are so valuable to BSA and GS/USA programs. They tend to be gun-ho for the outdoors and can relate to younger youth, and they aren’t usually involved in child or elder care. There are maturity concerns that cannot be overlooked, but if our society weren’t so punitive to everyone besides the few young adults who behave badly they might be manageable.

Their husbands?

@gpurlee, I was waiting for that to end with the Mrs wearing the new fur coat you got her for Christmas. You are truly exceptionally kind.

The fundamental problem: most people experience one-on-one contact as a net good. some people experience it as evil. When you are young (or not so young) and principled, it is hard to accept sacrificing so much goof to avoid so little evil.

It’s all the rage these days https://www.scouting.org/program-updates/scouts-bsa-youth-council-announcement/ https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2021/10/28/your-scout-can-help-shape-the-future-of-scouts-bsa-within-new-youth-council/

Well, 27 million of something is not nothing. Beyond that, it really depends on how people on the ground feel 3 years hence. Say 50 million is raised. That might be enough to extend the fundraising campaign. Especially if folks see some of those funds being dispersed or put to productive use. We see this all the time with capital campaigns. A goal might might not be met, but it might be sufficient enough to start work. This then is sufficient encouragement to extend the campaign.

@5thGenTexan, careful there. When the scouts use them wrongly when we aren’t around, at least they are with their buddies who know first aid. When we old farts cut corners (or do something worthy of having a totin’ chip corner cut), we’re usually by our own stupid selves.

What does it matter? The scout was fulfilling his PoR by delegating to the ASPL. I suppose the scouts could chose to recall the SPL and hold another election. And maybe if it were bad enough, if I were SM I’d suggest it to the PLC. If we officially suspended the scout, that would be another point. It sounds like the troop benefited from a competent ASPL, the ASPL learned something about how unreliable his buddy was, and gained some experience. We chalk that up to a win and move on.

So, my dad (and the committee) didn’t stay. If they dropped in on a meeting (literally, we met in a basement) they were absolutely quiet. Their meetings were held upstairs starting a little after the troop meeting and extended after the troop meeting for any scout who wanted a BoR. (So when we were up for a BoR, we literally went up.) I remember waiting in the basement with my buddy (whose mom was on the committee) and other scouts who needed a BoR. All that to say, you don’t have to hang around the troop meeting unless the SM needs a little depth for YP purposes.

I’m in a council of 1/2 dozen mergers. Preserving numbers is pretty high on the list. I don’t know how they resolve units in merging councils with the same number.

@yknot, I’m just relaying facts on the ground. Perhaps this CO has very little to loose and is going for broke. But, frankly, the cost of running an engaging youth program is very very high, and a parent would be sorely mistaken to assume that their church’s youth program would train to the level needed for comparable youth protection. And, actually, you can preach a whole lot without open doors. File it under stuff my pastor friends have learned during a pandemic.

Far from it. Preaching the gospel is front and center. Our CO is rechartering without hesitation.