qwazse

Don't count on it being easy on your wallet. The fee for BSA members will likely be increased because of demand, and to offset discounts to scouts from less well-off countries. Perhaps a call to scouts Canada to see if they need staff for a camp in Quebec. Maybe ease the wallet and offset the language deficit at the same time.

Nothing said so far goes against the reasoning that the PORs that count for advancement are ones that call for boys interact as much with other patrols as their own. Before a meeting, PLs determine "wolfs are service, bears are program, crows are spirit" during a meeting, PLs sound off regarding the exploits of their respective patrols. They then have their break-out sessions. At which time a couple of PLs decide to team up and have a JASM teach them ultimate catapult design. They reconvene as a group for spirit patrol to lead closing. Service patrol cleans up. At what point is this a troop activity? A patrol activity? Yeah sure. And your boys are hanging out with another troop for a weekend. Are they casting their independence aside?When they double in size, and camp on opposite ends of the field and the PLs cross to the middle in the morning and say "hike at noon, meals at four, capture the flag at eight, taps at ten, got a bugler?" ... Are they performing a troop activity or patrol activity?

@@Stosh and @@TAHAWK, all you have to do is produce documentation that PL has no obligation to the the other patrols in his troop. Any wording that says, for example, he is not obliged to attend any PLC, so long as the APL is available? But, I look at the PoR's for advancement, and the common thread is the time that should be devoted to more than your chosen/assigned fundamental unit in fulfilling that responsibility.

The answer is yes.

I remember from September's topic! Episcopalian. Pretty open minded towards all kinds of sinners. Sexual expression is the least of its concerns (much to the annoyance of the Anglican communion). That problem in itself seems to be Snarlys and maybe a few parents who never let their kids join in the first place. But, in this particular case, I'm not sure a CO would push for removal. They might even allow the leaders to part with the gear if the original CO is on speaking terms with the receiving CO. The real problem is a CO like this is trying to push for everyone to just get along without making any real effort to understand the dynamics. From their view, so what if someone said something in church that put one part "on the outs"? That doesn't mean they aren't welcomed in other circles. But, scouters don't compartmentalize that easily.

Asked and unanswered 6 years ago http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/13047-jac-shirt-adornment/

I agree this is critical. With venturers, where it's a trickle-in process (rarely do I get more than two at a time, but it's every month of the year when I get them), to avoid repeating myself, I ask them to read the application -- especially the oath and law but also the fine print. I also point out that I will hold them to their religious preference or that of their parents if they are agnostic. Still, that second day of hiking in bear country can bring out the worst. So, months of building trust prior is essential. That way the behavioral disorder kid knows to come to me before he/she blows his/her stack. Usually at this age, the signs are obvious ... e.g. an officer has had to ask "him/her" to turn it down a notch more than once. I think some of what we observe in boy scouts is that they haven't learned what is expected of them. We haven't coached PLs well enough to let us know when a scout is getting out of hand in a small task (e.g. a patrol meeting). Which means we haven't had the chance to tell a scout we expect them be a little more disciplined on the upcoming campout. Then, on the high-country or open-plain, the kid is under a microscope without realizing it, doesn't grasp the importance of any warnings, leader yells, tears, discouragement.

Have fun! I gotta say, back in the day, I enjoyed going to Jambo with complete strangers. (Well, one other scout from my troop, but he and I clicked with different boys in our patrol, so except for when we crashed in our tents exhausted, we hardly saw each other.) Thanks in advance for staffing. I think you'll find it rewarding to help thousands of boys. Definitely pinch pennies where you can. It sounds like your boy is all about the big-ticket scouting. It won't end at Jambo. So, find him a job this summer so that he can have some liquidity for the future.

Me, personally, I use standard issue knots on both my tan and green shirts. Got no problem with someone who takes the trouble to order ones with green backing. The insignia guide does not specifically speak to the background color of most common knots. As for the youth, uniforming is not a method of venturing. So ... the crew officers decide the best practice for their unit. The few in my crew who have worn a national uniform (usually as a council VOA officer) have not bothered with knots for two reasons: advancement is not a method of venturing, and at this point in their career most have only earned advancement-related knots. their female counterparts have no way of displaying a comparable knot for parallel honors that they've obtained (e.g. GS/USA Gold). More discussion may be found here: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2012/11/20/in-the-loop-a-guide-to-square-knots-and-how-to-wear-them/

In general, it seems that the positions that count are troop-oriented. (PL is really accountable to the troop for the activities of his boys.) So, it makes sense that the service project have a "for the troop" objective.

Beav, you are knawing the wrong end of the tree here. "Harangues", "bullied", "terrorized" have nothing to do with how the victim feels. They have to do with the goals of the perpetrator. How lads respond depends on their upbringing, I and my buddies were brought up to "get big" and "don't get mad, get even" and as a result any perpetrator was roughly three strikes (in our little minds,that rounded up to 7 times 70) away from recieving leveling punches. And when that happens, the SM's troubles doubled. Likewise, with 'skip's reply, it's clear to me that he disciplined by removing the perpetrators from the event, not scouting in general. Should he question himself for overreacting? Sure, but the Bonnie and Clyde should have done some soul-searching as well. A simple "Mr. Skip, can we apologize to the troop and ask them to invite us back?" would have been in order. Happens all the time with youth who really care to be scouts. Finally, regarding the psychobabble armchair ADHD diagnoses ... Ignoring the possibility of conduct disorder in these instances does great harm. You can reform your community around one and not the other. Blaming the victim undermines the value of any reply. The unit leader sets the tone one way or another. He/she trains the SPL/PL on how to react and what deserves a reaction. Any unit leader worth his/her salt welcomes feedback from newbies. Heck the one who gives the best feedback gets on the short list of his replacements.

Well, one would, until one's seen the slow-motion train-wreck and has expended precious time helping new scouters glue back the pieces four years later. @@SnarlyYow, keep those memories of the smiles on the youths' faces (your son's, first and foremost) in your head through all of this. For whatever reason (destiny or what-have-you), you are "the guy". Relax. Get your CO and your DE up to speed. Then, make it clear to this family that they are okay (maybe pinch yourself to get those words out), but they could be better. You're asking them to be above board and by the book. Tell them that in doing so this could help them stop the trail of tears. P.S. - Are you still CC of both troop and crew? If so, you need to call Miss Crew Advisor and get her opinion as well.

Welcome! Type just a little. You'll have fewer edits, and probably the wiser posts than all of ours!

Officially a COR and CC can decide who leads their units. COR can pick the CC. Really, the buck stops with COR. However, consensus from a unified committee is the best way a COR can make that decision. Lacking that consensus, the COR should make a decision that best represents the will of the CO. (This, by the way, is why many unit leaders are quite comfortable keeping CORs in the dark.) @@SnarlyYow, you should Call your DE and let him know you are deeply concerned about a unit setting up shop with a CO just down the road. Lacking any input from other scouters such as yourself, the DE will fast-track that charter ... looks good on his performance review. The DE might think twice if knows that the proposed CO is forming with stolen equipment, and your COR won't hesitate to call the SE and contest any charter signed under false pretenses. Don't expect the DE to resolve this. Just let him/her know that from where you sit, boys and girls are being cheated out of a positive scouting experience if this adult leader makes this drastic move. By the book if the SM starts a new unit, that's exactly what it is. The unit numbers stay with the CO. Period. Make sure the DE understands this and communicates it unambiguously to your renegade SM. Train your COR. Have her read through this material http://www.scouting.org/Home/Media/Relationships/TrainingtheCOR.aspxand take this course http://www.scouting.org/Training/Adult/CORFastStart.aspx. Keep an open mind. If the SM wants to start a new troop, and the CO does indeed seem to be offering more of whatever. Give that institutional head a call. I'm sure they would like to know of your experiences.

Agree with Beav. Have an open-ended conversation with someone from each family. Both parents if possible. But, sometimes a simple conversation with younger siblings could tell a lot. A boy's sister might have something to say about what she envies most about your troop (or doesn't like about adults' or boys' attitudes). One very useful question: "Do you or your family have someplace nice where a patrol (or two) could camp?" That's information that the boys can immediately take advantage of!

Or playing capture the flag - to the astute. Approximately true conversation: Guard: "That's scout x in his gilly suit." Brother-of-x: "No it's not, it's just a boulder." Guard: "I'm gonna tag him just in case." B-o-x: "It's not him, and if you leave the prisoners will escape." Guard: "If it is, he's gonna make a move on us." B-o-x: "Here, I'll prove it with this rock." X: "Ouch!" Guard [upon arriving at adult's site]: "Um ... X is bleeding pretty badly. A rock hit his head because of his gilly suit. B-o-x is feeling a little nauseous."

So, a practical example: To merge with another troop peaceably, we changed CO's. However, that CO does not have storage space, our former CO (with which some had a spat, not unlike yours) does. They make no bones about us using the equipment because, although it's "theirs," it was bought and paid for with scouting fundraisers for scouting purposes. So much so, that they would not even think of borrowing from our cache of charcoal, I had to "do them a favor" and get some for them from their non-scout half of the storage. So last night, the boys were at the former CO, cleaning out the garage, inventorying gear, putting it back neatly, and getting second hand MB pamphlets and uniforms that they could use for camp (and munching on a recently expired box of single-serving corn chips). The troop is always welcome back to the old CO, and can use their gear and storage space as long as the boys keep scouting with a smile and the CO can afford to keep the doors open (a different issue). That's how it's supposed to work. Make love not war ... yada yada ya. Thank your SM for checking out the CO's gear and inventorying it. You have word from the CO that he may return it ASAP.

Everyone has a list of behaviors they think they'll countenance or not. That changes over time. And as we mature as scouters (i.e., accumulate a series of regrets), how we deal with things on that list gets modified. As a unit leader It is important - for parents to tell me if they observed something that I missed, - for the boys to be able to tell me what went on from their perspective, - for them to reconcile with their fellow scouts, - for all of us to be willing to change so things go better next time. If that's happening most everyone will stick together. If not, someone will go home and maybe stay there.

Let's set aside irrational optimism. At any age co-ed program that I've seen girls drive us to chaos. Maybe that's because the girls who are drawn to them favor disestablishment. (Let's face it, they ain't looking to us guys to sit around and knit doilies with them.)

Welcome! Venturing is best described as a group of youth reinventing themselves to meet the unique goals and aspirations of the youth in their community. So the venturing crews in your district should be like a variety box of chocolates! Advising O/A demands pretty much the same skill set as advising a crew. So, you should be able to relate well to some of the advisors in your district. Obviously, your son's advisor would be a good start!

I think this makes the case for abandoning the troop activity shirt for a standard issue t and neckerchief. But unless you're crawling over some national monument and disrupting photography, I see this as the least of concerns. Keeping boys attentive to their litter and indiscriminate fire starting is a greater priority.

Well, it all sounds as baffling as counting service hours to me . My general principle: inasmuch as scouting is a game, play by the rules as written. Inasmuch as scouting provides personal growth, guide each scout towards the next big thing. I'm barely keeping up with our Guide to Advancement, so I'm not about to dig through yours. You need to determine what latitude the written rules give you -- all the time following my Rule number 1: Don't ask for a ruling. Someone will give you one, and you'll regret it! Then you need to walk through those rules with the PLC in the most efficient way possible. (Best practice: have them read the pertinent articles to each other.) Then ask "How can we make it fair for Jane, but not too easy for Robert?" With your first aid example, I'd think you would want to plan a first aid meet or wilderness first aid weekend where scouts have to demonstrate skills from lowest to highest stages. (This includes totems for "best portrayal of a 3 year old with a cut finger", etc ...). Your camping nights example is confusing to me. That may be that is a hot-button issue on this side of the pond, as this year-full of replies to this blog post attests: http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/06/24/ask-expert-isnt-camping-night-camping-mb/,

So, I am reviving this thread because it runs parallel to your other thread http://scouter.com/index.php/topic/28118-adult-led-troops/?p=437350. Based on what you've written there: Your older boys are not abandoning troop responsibilities because venturing is more fun than boy scouts. The troop is being lead without them. Clearly it will do just fine in their absence because the adults make sure everything runs on time and on schedule. Your SM (along with his ASMs) has sucked the air out of the room. If a young man is going to mature as a leader, he will instinctively find areas where he is solely responsible for what happens in his circle. He will shun positions of responsibility that amount to little more than a patch on his left sleeve. On the bright side, this may be an angle for you to begin to crack the cycle of adult leadership in your troop. The next time the SM gripes, tell him, "Well maybe if the boys actually had responsibilities that should they fail, real hiccups (instead of bailouts) ensue, they might feel needed in the troop like they do in the crew."

Don't apologize, this is how we get a better picture is what's going on in your troop. I think I understand your other thread about boys abandoning your troop for venturing. And the one about faster hikers leaving younger ones far behind. Your troop's older boys are looking for a space of their own, and will continue to look outside of troop so long as the adults behave this way. Let's be clear, they aren't looking for someplace to cause trouble without getting caught. (Well at least most of them probably aren't.) They are looking for a place where they can be trusted to lead. That's one reason the best troop campsite is a big old field with adults and patrols set 100 yards apart from each other. You could, at some point ask the SM or CC why the troop looks more like an *Adult* Scout troop than a *Boy* Scout troop. In my experience, the best situation is that this is a response to some tragedy in the past. A middle-ground situation is the parents are from a "tiger" culture that expects more adult association than the usual scouting model. Worst case, SM believes in authoritarian control and no amount of literature an training will change his mind. Depending on why they've gone off book may inform your next move.

1. Maintain a firm hand with whatever authority you have.2. Build a strong friendship in spite of stark disagreements. To that end, I would discourage E91 from trying to dig dish from the UC. I can't think of any scenario where knowing that history does any good. I can see no see any scenario where a UC would have all the facts to give an unbiased opinion. Finally, I can see no scenario where a UC who would know such detailed information would be inclined to divulge it to a third party. I certainly would not want any unit of mine to have such an individual as UC.