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Well, being courteous and helpful and good at lighting fires seem to be better identifiers. How many scouts even tie theirs like a chef's cravat? Maybe at the Dutch oven exhibit? The fact is that there are two diverging trends from the full uni + necker. One is the current tan shirt and pants without the necker, the other is the necker with whatever is practical for the job at hand.

Wow, it looks like you drew the short straw. Once you know who the Cubmaster is (he/she should be one managing pack meetings) do not hesitate to give him/her a call. The buck stops at the Cubmaster, so he would like to know if things aren't working in a den. He certainly would know if your paperwork got processed, because he signs the membership applications. You're not getting anyone in trouble. It's not like someone's pay is gonna get docked. Someone might just get the assistance they need to run a successful den.

Welcome to the forums! So, is your scout a lion or tiger cub? I'm sorry to hear of your negative experience. You should talk to your Pack's cubmaster. The Boy's Life subscription should have been ordered when you filled out your son's youth application. Your cubmaster should be able to double-check if the paperwork went through and your son is on the roster. Some people just don't do E-mail. So, you're just gonna have to settle for a phone call or face-to-face. Now, are you in a position to volunteer to host one activity for your son's den? Sometimes, by you or the boy's father offering to contribute an activity, and a couple of other boys' parents offering something else on a different month, you all will be able to work up a fun schedule and work around your den leaders' foibles.

Short answer: no. It's a cleverly slapped together manipulation of Learning for Life.

@@EmberMike and @@Back PackYou may think you sound all "scouting for the 21st century", but in the process you are discounting scouts who aren't living in your bubble. True, the necker was standardized as part of the uniform "only" in the 1930s. So, it's been a moniker of the organization for a measly 90% of its existence. Now, with the rise of specialized manufacture, units can get any style they desire produced on demand. (Which is probably why BSA is going out of the necker business.) I'm actually kind of glad BSA is getting out of the custom neckerchief business, and looking forward to see what youth come up with Hats? I've seen more styles come and go than any other clothing feature. Worse, if you don't like your troop's hat, there's no folding it in your pocket! Good luck getting all the scouts in the nation to settle on one of those. Meanwhile, that piece of cloth is not officially part of the venturing uniform, yet I see more area and regional venturing leaders with a necker than I ever did 10 years ago.

Every crew meeting and activity the Italian exchange student can make. And, occasional Sunday dinners ... Some weekdays when the college is closed. (That was when the Czech scout saw Son #2 and his buddy on the way to a meeting neckerless.) ... And the occasional baby shower/wine tasting party of 50 year old former patrol members. Comes from teaching our kids to talk to strangers. The random scouts are among the strangest. But, this isn't a different country. Troops 1/4 mile apart in the same town decided differently weather or not to break ranks with the most original part of their uniform. .... The older ones who are trying to find a scouting community for there kids do ask that.

Last issue first: troops vary widely as to how they integrate their adult volunteers. So watch and learn. So, your pack is okay with its collection of leaders? Or, is one den having trouble finding a leader? You might feel in there or help train someone who is not so confident. There are also things tasks your district may need help with. Is there a coed crew who needs female chaperons from time to time? And there's also the rest of the world (your sones school, church, sports) who miht be served by the stuff you've learned over the years.

Quick question, were your TC parents troop alumni?

By way of "encouraging," does that include warning them that they run the hazard that any scout from anywhere else in the world (from any other time in history) will, upon seeing them in their pretty tan shirts and glorious epaulets, challenge them with, "Where's your neckerchief?" And, how often should the boys have this vote? Once? If so what right do your boys have making a decision for scouts decades later? Keep in mind: fashion's fickle. Yearly? If so, things like this can be divisive. (I can see some SPL's campaign plank: "Repeal and replace my predecessor's affordable necker act!") Basically, if you're troop sports a neckerchief, I'd advise just going with tradition unless a super-majority of boys (including troop alumni and feeder packs) wants to change. If not, I'd advise going with the flow, but modelling your desired behavior, offering newly-forming patrols the opportunity to innovate.

Nothing could po$$ibly change that policy? Not even an attempt to reverse the declining purchases of World Crests? As I said, we are talking about a very unlikely scenario. I don't foresee a boots-on-the-ground insurrection.

@Anklyus, you face a double-edged sword. In a very large troop, you have more eyes on the boys, but you're more likely to have some boys find ways to thwart regimented discipline, especially in tight quarters. When our troop was large, such pyromania often occurred within a tarp's space of adults. In a small troop, being a first-class scout (concept, not patch) is at such a premium that boys are "up or out". In other words, they conform to the SM's goals for discipline -- especially fire safety -- in order to be trusted to hike and camp independently with their mates. Or, they become the cause of the patrol's hike plans being rejected. It's the long leash principle. The patrol of hooligans will be rewarded with frequent SPL and adult visits. If the PL can't account for the location of his boys, there are big issues. (Sometimes if he can there are still problems ... as when my patrol "borrowed" the spray paint used to make our patrol flag and improvised a flame thrower. But nobody was under any delusions that the SM being any closer would have prevented such shenanigans.) However, the patrols who shores up their members, over time, will be awarded with new hike plans and challenges/responsibilities. Fire safety is, of course, only one dimension. It's all part of inculcating a vision of the pinnacle scouting experience of hiking and camping independently with your mates.

After getting directions from everyone associated with our troop (who wasn't in venturing and had not taken training, nor really talked to the youth in my crew) about how I should manage as an advisor (as opposed to how the Venturing Leadership Manual directed), I went to my council's venturing committee for advice and asked, "Am I right, or am I crazy?" One seasoned advisor replied, "You're probably are crazy, but you're also right." You have a script. There's a link to it here http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/CubScouts/Leaders/CubmasterResources.aspx. The .pdf on that page is designed for new leaders. Print it or ask your DE if he/she has copies pre-printed, and circulate it. It references The Cub Scout Leader's Guide. Waste no more breath writing your own outlines. Tell anyone who cares, "We operate by the book. Here's the book." Proceed. The CC trusts you. He also respects the current CM. Get over it. You can ask for an immediate transition, but if you don't get one, suck it up. Yes, your pack may go through a wad of cash. Yes, you might have 8 dozen girl-scouts swamping your PWD. There might be 12 more months of fiascos. Bide your time, study the manuals. Learn to respectfully disagree.

I corrected my post to be clear that BSA would never try to shut down another youth organization. There is a difference between defending your brand and obstructing assembly. I think we may be splitting hairs here. One or more of these groups could be for all intents and purposes, scouting, they simply are not permitted to use that word. A rose by any other name ... A future where BSA erodes its base and one or more of these organizations swells in numbers is possible, but unlikely. Were that to happen, they could vie for the attention of WOSM, and us boots on the ground would have to decide if we were going to tolerate the concept of a federation of US scouting organizations.

Looks phishy to me. Call your council HQ, and see if anyone knows about it.

Unless, you are trying to capture your opponent's flag unseen!

BSA has failed (nor would it even try) to shut down any other youth organization. Freedom of association and all that ... As "pale horse" mentioned, they have defended their brand (http://www.scouting.org/Licensing/Protecting%20the%20Brand.aspx), but their right to do so is not dependent on Title 36.

BTW @@Ridgerunner, welcome to the forums! You're not gonna like this: Call your SE and let him know things are a little rough with this one. Worried about being blackballed from council? Get thicker skin. Time off council committees is time you can spend hiking and camping independently with your mates, or the kids in your unit, or both. Let them know you'd welcome the favor. Regarding the fellow personally -- in case you wind up having to endure him longer than you'd care to -- let him know every time he does any thing (no matter how small) right. Be positive as possible. That's the only way you'll ever get a crack in the door to advise him on clearing the rotting fish from his shed. Assume that if you don't do it nobody else will.

'Bout half. That's about same the portion as 18 year olds who I've seen come back to serve as ASM in our troop. Mind you we don't have a lot of Eaglets. When not part of adult machinations, they come in clusters. One boy shows how easy it is, two or three others follow, that lasts for a couple of years, then it's back to 17.5 year-olds just getting Life and having to scramble. First, the kids have got to care for one another. So as much as I hate it, meetings need some space for a boy to come share the latest internet gizmo that they can get on their phone. Figuring out that balance between social time and work is part of real life, but I've seen that it doesn't matter if the boy is pre- or post- Eagle. They often don't get the face-to-face time that we think they do outside of scouting. Second, they gotta find a position of responsibility or a service project. Lot's of ours made better den chiefs after becoming Eagle than before. I would actually say that sense of being needed is a higher priority than providing "high adventure" opportunities. Third, leadership training. That can come in the form of NYLT or NAYLE, district-wide service projects, speaking engagements (my SM had me speaking at Elk's clubs and reading parts at 4th of July ceremonies), O/A, or venturing if you trust their advisors to throw down challenges to them. Fourth, convince them that they should rack up Palms. Let them know how many they could earn if they worked steady from their Eagle BoR until age 18. The palm requirements include leadership development like what I listed above. (Funny who that method doesn't just disappear once a kid gets his bird.) Again, a scout who stagnates either pre- or post- Eagle is shortchanging himself and his troop. Finally, recognize the needs of "resume builders". It's not all bad. If they want to become the medical officer on the first colony on Mars, being 1 of 200,000 Eagles is not gonna cut it. Get him into EMT Certification, Search and Rescue, Junior ROTC, Civil Air Patrol ... whatever special programs or unique employment opportunities for high school youth your committee can connect him with. Well, those are the strategies that I've thought of over the years. Like I said, I've seen them keep a boy engaged in Troop life about half the time. I'm not sure what else I could do (besides the usual getting meddlesome adults to back off) to up the percentage.

You all seem to realize how few adults have a say in the matter. But, keep chatting. If I get a moment with someone on the National venturing youth cabinet next month, I'll run your concepts up the chain. Maybe even start at age six ... look out for them lion-venturers.

Okay, all you ageists who think this is a gripe session, please find other threads. I'm sorry to hear about henpecked/rooster-pecked Eagles. (I've had to intervene in some of that shenanigans myself.) But, I've seen just as many at young ages as old. Specifically to those boys, be they 12 or 16, I've said, "Hustle up. Get it done. Move on. I'll understand." But to every other boy I say, "It's a nice feeling to have that silver oval on your left pocket for multiple summer camps. Hustle up. Get it done. Stick around. We got even better stuff." What's in your offering?

hmmm ... Might work for several of our boys that way.

Except from any venturer anywhere.

Well, I've seen it. My 1st PL had Eagled at age 13. Great guy. Stayed in the troop until 18. His younger brother was a good scout as well. There is something to be said for moving your leadership development along. Then use what you've learned by getting Eagle to make your high school career better. But that's just me. How do you all help your young eagles (if you have them) get the most out of their early achievement?

Bottom line: COR calls the shots. If he/she's not displeased with the CC, then it's a lock. DE has no say in the matter. The UC can educate, but has no real say in how adults organize their unit. Not sure what your CC is doing that ruins it for the den. But ... Yes, people are free to transfer to any pack that suits them. They are also free to stay in the pack and work with them. So, you may take action to relocate yourself and your family, and others (or none) in your den may follow suit (or not).

I feel @@MattR's pain. An MC with all good intentions will toss out something that begs the question, "What are we really about?" All eyes are on beleaguered SMs or Advisors and you can see, especially in the newbies, the blood rushing to their face and the veins pulsing out of their temples. So, I've come up with a few ditties to diffuse the tension ... Troop _ _ _, we take bad kids. Forced marches in bear country solves a multitude of ills. Safe scouting: getting you as close to your creator as possible without making it a permanent stay. For this, there are two corollaries: Stupid happens fast. Be prepared = forestalling death. Not everyone advances one rank/year, and we're not gonna worry about it. We want everyone to be 1st class scouts, the concept, not the patch. I sincerely believe that last one, a lot, because I can apply it to venturers, boy scouts, and even cub scouts should be growing in that direction. Heck, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that I expect that of scouters. If that's true, "trained" patches, and beads will prove mostly superfluous. And it comes with a vision: The pinnacle scouting experience: hiking and camping independently with your mates.