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Flagg, no problem. Pull out the plain English rules that the software is based on. Heck the software should have the link to any rule it applies (ideally with publisher and copyright date). References = first step in teaching a skill. Does O/A have a policy that says the MB definition applies, or does it have one that references the JTE definition: You and I might think that's a stupid rule made to accommodate point-grubbing scouters, but it's official. If someone like @@Chisos read the O/A requirments, then looked in a boy's book, and had just tallied up the year according to JTE ... could anyone direct him to a source that says he should not make that association?

As a biologist at heart, I do believe bird study should be required. In recent years, national and local debates about environmental issues are lost on many, simply because they aren't watching the flora and fauna in their community. Any required MB's should focus on mindfulness and observation, less on regurgitating facts. I do believe that this shenanigans about the age 18 deadline should end. I don't think we should encourage scouts to procrastinate or nudge adults to earn eagle, but if after earning 1st class at any age, they should not be discouraged if they are so inclined. Wood badge should be open only to scouters who've earned 1st class rank. I guess that means that cub leaders and such will need to master some outdoor skills ... pity that. I'm ambivalent about the service project. (Which wasn't required early on.) I think it should be turned into a "project management" or maybe "grants and contracts" merit badge. Should it be required? Likewise, there should be a required "pedagogy" (a.k.a., EDGE) MB rather than all of these scattershot requirements. Maybe require it for Star, and fold in that 2nd cyberchip requirement. I think homemaking will need to be added as fewer young adult men are getting married, nor are they going into the military and learning about living an orderly life. Again, not sure about requiring it. I'm not that bothered about the three ranks at once schema. Depending on what your troop/patrol does, it may need those tenderfoot scouts mastering selected 1st class skills before ranking up. But that should cut both ways. If a 2nd class scout seems to have forgotten a skill for his next rank that he had mastered the year before, he should be requested to demonstrate it again. Regarding BoR's and testing: we need to accept the fact that there will be variation, and not brow-beat scouters who do things differently. Recommendations of when and how.

The byline is "National honor society of the Boy Scouts of America." So, without further documentation to the contrary, there's no reason that the different requirements would share the same definition. Regarding software, I try not to let the tail wag the dog.

We need to remind ourselves that it's a big country ... http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/08/21/scout-neckerchiefs-now-approved-wear-nonuniform-clothing/ ... and fashion is fickle. Following the photos of youth giving BSA's Report to the Nation this year, I see 2 of the 5 boy scouts and 1 of the two venturers wearing neckerchiefs.

Nice link, CF. But that's about camping merit badge, not O/A. I tried looking for "outdoor" here http://www.oa-bsa.org/pages/content/membership-and-induction, not on that page. Anybody have a better source? I have no problems reading only self-raised shelter or open sky into O/A's membership requirements, if someone can provide a reference to experts addressing that specifically.

I'm not sure. The emphasis, unlike camping MB, is on overnights with a troop or a team (not a crew or a pack). If those were the activities that the troop provided, then it seems that we'd miss honorable scouts by not counting those nights. That sense of fellowship is what we seem to be after here. At the same time, "camping" is used repeatedly. So, if these were boys who always dodged every outing under canvas or stars, I suppose that's where 'approval of SM or Varsity Coach' comes into play. When in a jam like this, I always recommend to bring it up with your scouts. They are the ones who will be voting. Their interpretation should matter.

Okay, so as not to offend EM, let's be clear. The highlighting is mine ... So, you're not discussing a change in uniform policy where the standard would not include neckerchiefs. We're not discussing how excuses like "dorky", "uncool", or even "non-utilitarian", etc ...comes off as "whiny" and possibly irrational. Okay. I guess that means we can't discuss how some think it is that a simple piece of fabric worn as described in the BSHB connects them with scouts around the world, and scouts of yesteryear ... (and maybe some chefs, cowpokes, sailors, etc ...). Because all of that is irrational emotional or doesn't happen in everyone's neck of the woods. Let's just talk about how some boys are having fun with neckers, while others are not. Open questions in my mind are: 1. How do we give boys a fair picture about neckerchief wear and use? 2. How do we overcome BSA's slips in the production and sale of pre-printed neckerchiefs? 3. When should a troop who has opted-out of neckerchiefs as part of their uniform be asked to reconsider their decision? 4. When should boys who don't usually wear neckerchiefs be prepared to wear them? 5. What about camporees with neckerchief challenges? 6. What about that scout who comes from a jamboree, conclave, or moot and insists on donning a neckerchief (or more, it can get absurd) at meetings/CoH's in a troop who has opted out of them?

Maybe this is where BSA went wrong: selling pre-printed cloth instead of design kits. Imagine a scout-shop with rolls of fabric, silk screens, dyes, and inks ... maybe even with craft tables in the back for patrols to schedule so they can purchase materials on site. Put down a deposit, get it back if you leave the room as clean as when you came. If not at scout-shops, then at major craft suppliers.

I think we'll find more parents who do need that "push" to support their boys attending meetings. It's a side-effect of the interweb: providing a delusion that we all can get by without physical contact.

As a parent, I would be concerned that reasonable precautions have been made to secure the liquor. Probably, it wouldn't hurt from time to time for the older scouts to hear from one of the bartenders about state regulations and the problems that could arise from a youth "raiding the cupboard." But, it is healthy for the boys and parents to know who their CO is -- that includes the good, bad, and ugly. In fact, if the club has a range safety officer who is good with youth, it might not hurt to have a kids' shooting night one night a week. Members would be informed that the bar will be closed that night. But if stuff isn't going to be kept under lock and key, and a good faith effort is not made to educate the older youth, I wouldn't use the club as a troop meeting place.

I quoted you exactly and then paraphrased ... my apologies if my word choice touched nerves. But if your boys were to speak freely, which word would they choose? You wanted to know what people thought of a national BSA rule of abandoning neckerchiefs. It's a big country. I agree that the smaller sizes undermined their universal use. But given the full size, the "non-utilitarian" argument falls flatter than our epaulets. I'm sure boys and adults share responsibility for their culture. And in this current troop, I leave the SM and the PLC to interact on these issues on their own. But ... Before patrol break-outs tonight, ASPL was presenting on backpacking, and one of the first years asked about wearing his uniform on a trip. ASPL suggested to bring his activity shirt and neckerchief. None of the adults gainsay-ed him one way or the other. Looking around the room of two dozen boys, about 6 older scouts did not have their neckerchiefs on. The ASPL had his on, as did the SM and I. The ASM did not. Then at the crew meeting, they were going over first aid, and I demonstrated making a sling on a victim using my wood badge necker. I made it clear if they weren't going to wear them, they should keep 3'x3' clean cloths in their kits. So, I'd say if your boys are sticking with the neckerchief, do make sure they practice getting some utility out of the thing. And, cut the older boys some slack if they don't bring theirs.

CF, maybe I'm wrongly taking @@EmberMike at his word. Let's see ... Here, we have an adult. One whose past association with neck-wear was negatively jaded. Unlike you, said adult is now surrounded by boys who don't seemed to be bothered by their necker policy. At least, not enough to vote it down. Said adult has rumors of other boys opting out of this erstwhile national standard, and seems to be projecting his angst on boys who have not exercised that option. Said adult wonders, if the boys aren't opting out themselves, maybe the adults should do it for them. Said adult refers to the actions of other adults for justification. And in case we were unsure of his opinion ... ... he let's us know that we should be concerned about looking excessively gay, as if that's a bad thing. You might think this is about deconstructing our notion of what visually distinguishes scouts from members of other noble groups, but no, it's about squelching the fun that many are having for the sake of the few who are embarrassed by said jamboree.

@Col. FlaggThat ain't no friendship knot. So, not even close. Yes, the reds and the Nazi's appropriated symbols of patriotism and righteousness ... ends justifying the means and all that. But even if a trade/government/public/other group appropriates the fashion to the same visual effect, they are to large degree doing so because of what scouting has made of it. But to poke at Mike and 'BPack a little more ... the thread's title is basically a call on the rest of us to abandon a practice because "my boys don't like it / they think its dumb / they feel itchy with it on" and any other number of whiny excuses. In other words "Because I can't have fun with it, you shouldn't either." It's like filing a cease and desist order while at the party. It's a pretty lame way to stop the dancing. At best people will keep asking you to hop on the dance floor with them. At worst you'll succeed in shutting it down and having everyone around you resent you for it.

Scouts reading this: please, no hanging scars! Your SM really does not deserve to be saddled with the paperwork involved in that one. Remember, Mr. Eastwood's was applied by a make-up artist. The neckerchief, however, was quite real, quite cool, and quite straightforward to imitate with a modicum of paperwork.

I'm quite sure the truck stop gift shop of 35 years ago did not calibrate measures with the Internet.

Most definitely honor the boy's and the parents' hard work. Let the other boy's parents learn from their example.

CP, welcome back! Missed you. @@Ranman328, sad 2 c u go. Come back when your dander's down.

Welcome the scout. Ask him more about how he made his car, what gave him the idea, etc ... Get to know his family better. Have fun. As far as voting goes, be sure your assumption is correct. (It might not be.) If it is ask the committee politely that next year, they have only racers vote. But, never let this stuff get under your skin.

Brace yourself for a future of fun. If your son's growth spurt comes on before he wears his shirt out, don't let that uniform sit idle in his closet. Remember that not every family can handle the sticker shock.

Ma' Sallam, CP. Hope to heat from you once the blood stops boiling.

All MB's matter!

Lest we forgot that we need a place for our slides here's a nifty piece c/o Bryan On Scouting http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/09/08/neckerchief-slides-whats-go-look/, and a Tuesday Talkback that's accumulated some thoughtful discussion http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/02/03/scout-neckerchiefs-yea-or-nay/, the latest comment (http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2015/02/03/scout-neckerchiefs-yea-or-nay/#comment-170632) involves how that collection of traded neckers can still infect 21st century boys.

Touching piece by a Girl Scout in our area http://www.alleghenyfront.org/please-dont-take-away-my-girl-scout-camp/ regarding five camp closures.

Not denying that it's optional, just affirming that it's an object of admiration in a myriad of contexts in the U.S. It's no more an object of ridicule than the "love your Muslim neighbor" t-shirt my friend gave me. Which reminds me, time to go to the coffee shop.

i don't know, there might be some beaches where "just a necker" might get you called out for being overdressed, but society is becoming a little more tolerant of that whole behavior, I'm told. With regard to wearing a necker, say, over your rain slicker on a crappy fall day with a troop who aren't at all in uniform .... Oh my, all that ridicule ... I should be scarred for life. Instead I opted to grow a pair. Occupied myself with collecting rainwater off my tarp (the only drink that didn't taste like fracking fluid), shooing adults away from the boy cooking (burning?) grilled cheese sandwiches, and setting up my pizelle iron and cranking out cookies through the evening. The boys in this community are welcome to associate my growing obsession with my necker as some kind of crazy, or they can decide at the end of the day that that stupid piece of cloth -- even when not over epaulets and silver knots -- represents the kind of scout they want to be.