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@Col. Flagg, if somebody told me to take charge of a unit of 70+ youth, I'd tell them to go pound sand. The max I think I'd put up with is 40! That's all the more I've ever known. The more likely scenario is 5 girls knocking at my door. I know about 3 other women who I can trust to help start this BSA4G program without watering anything down. (I know more, but I'd have to convince them to find a job and relocate here.) While other CO's may let us use their facilities, my current CO would want those girls coming through their door, and my existing troop would want me to have both units coordinate with each other. Well, let's say we actually have fun and actually attract 10 girls a year, the number of boys in the troop remain steady, and the PLC's decide they like working in lock-step -- a highly unlikely scenario, I think. Well in four years we have that unit of 70 that I had been dreading, and the frog's been boiled slowly. If you're already at 70, you're probably getting 8-10 crossovers per year, and you may not have room to share with 8 BSA4G, let alone double your CO's capacity. Or, you might simply be a bigger frog!

I asked myself about gear the first time half my crew (i.e. the girls) wanted to backpack. Then all of a sudden packs and other gear got handed down, dropped off, or left on the curb for me to grab - even from the gnarliest curmudgeons. I still see some of those packs in circulation on the backs of cross-overs! It's a big country, and your leaders may be spread too thin. But I, for one, will make time for a patrol of girls if they come knocking. And who knows? If these girls learn to rig their own gear, the boys might want to buy it! Basically, anybody who's up for this has to be okay with a little improvisation and negotiation. And, respecting the boys who've put a lot of muscle into making a troop work to suit them. Now, if some zealot comes to your leaders and gives them a high-and-mighty lecture about how they now need to be accommodating, blah, blah, blah ... that will be a shame, and I can see some scouters jumping ship over it.

This is where I make the difference between "contingent" and "patrol". Contingents are handy when only a couple guys from each patrol are interested in an activity, so they peel off from their patrols' for that activity. This is often how we prepare our Philmont or Seabase contingents. The patrols serve as a scout's "home base." Needless to say, too many contingent activities and boys lose sense of patrols. Too few, and your patrols may miss out on "injections" of creativity from boys coming back from contingents.

Now that I think of it, I might have been among those scouts ... if not on a troop overnight, certainly on church camps. I remember that chapter coming to a close after I camped on a farm with a mixed youth group (effectively a co-Ed patrol). I remember it vividly because I had procured tents from my QM, but a female leader passed. She was the first person I met who gladly slept out under the stars. It took me until I was twice as old as she was at the time to adopt the same routine. Anyway, that event blunted the effect of a culture that taught that a girls were a population to be "raided." Your mileage may vary.

Was this 12 year old scout recommended by his SPL and approved by his SM to be the scouts den chief. Or, is he just tagging along as someone's older brother? There's a big difference. Underlying all of those rules for YPT are sixeteen points for safe scouting. The first is qualified supervision, the last is discipline. The one involves training, the other trust. This applies to scouts and Cubs and adults ... Albeit at different levels.

@cocomax, I've been at some camporees where some SMs should have run tent-watch on their unisex units. My crew worked hard, played hard, and slept well. That said, with older scouts, I'm they guy who takes the afternoon naps so that I can walk the grounds an hour before midnight. However, dalliances between venturers were the least of my worries. At that age, the relationships outside of crew life seem to be the most destructive. Scouts Canada is at 63k total 15k in the scout program (age 11-14) http://www.scouts.ca/wp-content/uploads/about/2016-17-SC-AR-en.pdfMore stats covering multiple years here http://yates.ca/sc/history/membership_national.htm

So, you kinda like being the "old guy" in your troop? I did, son #2 did. Son #1; not so much.

Actually, Title IX says different. Thus collegiate sports programs continue being segregated. Also, middle ground is the Czech model where districts may have all-boy troops, all girl troops, and mixed troops in any combination. The natural tendency there is to have at least one of each in a district. In scouts UK, the scales tipped toward all co-Ed within a decade. I'm not sure how much of that was unit driven vs. a push from the national association in light of the demand. Regardless, lawyers gonna litigate.

Define "work". Separate charters for girls "works" for DEs who need to bump their unit counts. I think it could "work" to force GS/USA to up its game by freeing enrollment caps in its best troops to compete with BSA4G's inevitable "there's always room for one more" attitude. It helps pro-unisex SMs feel a little sheltered by allowing them to pass the buck to national when some girl asks why she can't join the troop. It works for those who want to control patrol assignments. Allowing girls to sign on to existing charters "works" for paperwork-weary CCs -- especially those of rogue troops. They don't have to change their routine. They probably have coed leadership in place. It works for "the buck stops here" SMs and CORs who can say they are fielding a male only program. It removes a barrier to post-modern nomads who are looking for a one-stop-shop for children of opposite sex. And it works in terms of being able to count how many new units start exclusively for girls vs. units who prefer to be mixed. I'm ambivalent about either. I haven't had girls knocking at my door (even for venturing, let alone any imminent BSA4G program) for two years. The potential beneficiaries of a BSA4G who I've talked to are generally content with their GS/USA troop, or they find their brothers to be a little too dorky to imitate, or some combination of both. So all this is hypothetical. But, I have talked with potential adult leaders (COR, the troop committee, the SMs) by way of keeping them informed. That way, if there's demand, we can meet it.

@Eagle1993, fall roundup always sounded like the usual rhythm for boys and cubs. They could say, "We'll accept girls' applications if and when your troop decides to accept them. Follow the G2SS. Peace out." That could start tomorrow. No muss no fuss. Don't anyone ask for rules they don't need. The downside ... all of those specialists and program planners would be out of a job. And BSA can't rake in those $40 chartering fees.

How does national know who is in what patrol? Hint: they don't. The best they could do with girls joining an existing troop is strongly recommend that we segregate patrols by sex. I don't like the extra paperwork. But if it helps ease some people's paranoia, I can explain to girls that this is how BSA4G is. If they don't like it, they can immigrate to any WOSM country where families are less bent out of shape over who is in a campsite with who.

What time? If 5 jr. high ladies walk up to my door in 10 months wanting to learn how to hike and camp independently with their mates: I have a COR and IH who told us they will support them. I know adults the adults who I trust to manage a committee. Others who I trust to train new committee. I can train the remaining ASM's. I know the IOLS schedule. Who gets to be SM is a simple game of rock, paper, scissors. I have a new-unit application. I check the box that says Troop. To be above board, I write "For Girls" in the bottom margin. COR signs it. I call my DE and say, "Want a new unit under your belt?" Regarding the girls. Same handbook, same YP, same patches, same uniform, pick a necker or tie dye a new one. We meet, I roll out a map and say "Make a plan." I guide. They go. Five youth who really care + five adults with integrity = the troop is on. Done.

They did away with the Pack Law and now use the Scout Oath and Law... I liked it better the old way! Because @Pselb might not have been around when the Law of the Pack was extant, I'll pitch in and make his argument. The full line read "The Cub Scout helps the pack go." There was no mention of parents in The Law of the Pack. Except, when the parent is Akela, but that was to emphasize that the behavior that the Cubs were learning also applied at home, where their "Pack" was their family.

I can see both sides of the "babysitters" argument. I don't ask for a lot of adults, just good ones. That apllies to both Scouts and Sunday school. We have built a heavily parent-dependent culture. That's on us. Other scout associations around the world make their older scouts run the cub programs. My sons, as adults, were asked to help the youth soccer program. They were not asked lead a den. Think about it. Why doesn't NESA send every Pack CC a list of every adult Eagle Scout who currently lives in their neighborhood?

Some ideas are here

This really depends on your troop. I grew having no idea that scouts didn't walk at least 100 yards from the SM's car before they pitched their tents! Summer or winter, we'd have the farthest camp from the parking lot (if at our regular summer camp, that was about a quarter mile uphill). We'd pitch our canvas tents then some of us trudged back down to haul up the 10 gallon army-surplus water bottle. (Camel-back? We had the whole hump!) I'd be sitting there sipping my bedtime cocoa wondering what the guys in the cabin down the hill were up to, and I'd pity them for missing the stars on the new-fallen snow. But, I'm pretty sure those guy's cars were also parked back down by the camp office. That hill was not fit for cars -- especially ones pulling trailers -- on a good day.

Wow. That's cool!

There's a reason why I omit the f- word doublespeak from my posts. It's BSA4G that's in demand. For the past two decades, I've met girl after girl who broke ranks with their friends who prefer "glamping" to proudly participate in the BSA via any door that was open to them. None of those young women have said, "Please, Mr. Q, may I bring mom and dad along?"

In sort of chronological order ... No more Eagle, old guys. Bird Study? Bye Bye. It's for boys, so make it school. Bookwork MB's have them drool. Girl, Godless, Gay? Don't say! SCOTUS: "National, have your way!" Achievement? Bah! Identity! Drop the First Class Journey. Uniform the committee. Fancy knots in rows of three. YPT? That lawyer's fee! Secret files are so scary! No adult? Stay at home! Camping kids go on their own. Explorers camping. Really? Call them Venturers, set them free! NESA's Eagle promos grind. There's one on Silver! "Never Mind!". Older ventures, that's not fine. Twenty-one can't be the line. Paperwork for all adults. MBC's must join the cult! Girl Scouts, where are you? "Find us flushies." Boo hoo. First class ladies: "Help us please!" Old farts: "They make us sneeze!" The World Jamboree's coming. Don't blow it! Scouting's co-eds are cool, and they show it! Even Saudi and Pakistan know it. We'll be fine.

The OSHA regs make things tedious. But ... I really appreciated Son #2 asking me to help with his project and be his project adviser. He had a fierce independent streak, which was great for academics, but limited how patient he could be with manual skills that require lots of instruction and attention to detail. This project provided a balanced way for us to polish some of those rough edges. For my project, I taught myself how to use a belt sander that was lying around in the basement. Never teach yourself how to use a belt sander. Had I asked ANYONE, "Who knows how to work this thing?", they could have have taught me safety and shop vac skills that would have spared my church social hall a boatload of sawdust! Some eyes were at risk. I wrongly assumed the church would not front the cost of safety goggles. I did manage to stain a bunch of tables nicely, but there were some old school painters in town who, had I taken a moment, would have taught me the ins and outs of faux grain. So, the increased involvement of adults has changed the flavor of projects, I think. But, they've also enabled boys to pick up more skills and knowledge.

@EagleVolunteer, welcome to the forums! Do you remember Mazda's "Dogs ... love ... trucks" commercial? Boyscouts ... love ... paperwork! Ask him if there's a young adult in the troop who can help you with the milling and assembly. He should be responsible for mocking up and drawing. If your 3-D drafting he and a buddy should be looking over your shoulder as you do. Surely, there's a hand tool that one can use instead of a Kreg jig. Same for finish hardware. We live in a century-old house. Screwing knobs was part of the kid's skill set from when they were old enough to yank them! He should be responsible for the sanding and finishing. (Citing "leadership development", Son #2 tried to dump that part of his project on me after I cut the hardwood pieces. I said he could go recruit a sander/stainer or leadership develop himself into one while I take a hike to the coffee shop. Mrs. Q being the fine woodworker in the family, she trained him in the process and he pulled it off quite nicely.) In general, you have the right idea. Yes, you should do the machining. But, ideally, the boy should interact with you piece by piece as he watches his project come together. He might even realize that a cut will need adjustment. That process of thoughtful supervision is central to leadership development. Hopefully he can be there with a buddy or another adult so they can learn together.

Or, the girls might field two patrols; and the boys, two. Within their units, no SPL necessary. But the PLCs, deciding to coordinate tightly, might decide to elect an SPL for their frequent-and-often activities at the same place and time. He/she may select an ASPL from either the same or different unit. Two troops, four PLs, one SPL, one ASPL. National sees two charters. Youth PoRs are not on the charter. Even if they were, an SPL would be on one roster and no SPL would be on the other troop's roster and nobody would dare yank the SMs' chains about it one way or the other. The SMs see youth develop leadership .... to the point that SPL may put on his/her resume: "Boy Scouts of America: Troops ###B/###G, ___ rank, Senior Patrol Leader" SM is listed as a reference and backs the claim.

Guys, your quotes just keep getting better as I type! 1. National has no way to track or control how patrols form. It might be cool if they did. Each youth would fill out an online survey on each scout in the rest of the troop and produce a "friend matrix" that would tell the SPL who would best cluster together in patrols. Or it might be just as cool if we keep 'big brother' out of this. 2. National has no way to prevent any two troops from working in lock-step. Any two PLC's could decide they want to camp, hike, and meet together. That's how a spin-off of a spin-off troop and ours eventually merged. The boys looked at their friends meeting just down the road and told us that being two troops was just plain stupid. We shuffled back and forth between CO's, and ultimately settled on the one who wasn't going to charge us rent, but we let the boys wear either of the two unit numbers on their sleeve. 3. My observations of other co-ed scouting groups (including venturing) does not show that boys would be "muscled out" of leadership positions. This is because there are more youth to care for, the outdoors is big, and everybody has to step into a PoR for their patrol (and later, their troop) to succeed. My observation of co-ed contingents on backpacking trips indicate that it is completely random as to who takes the lead. 4. In our culture, girls only look like they have more organizational skills than boys. That's because they haven't been challenged to get their patrol geared up to hike 5 miles to someplace where they will need to set up their own shelter and provide their own food, and all the rosters in the world won't make up for personality conflicts. So, they stay at home and get out their tablet and plan sleepovers, or trips to the mall that require heavy coordination of parent pick-up/drop-off time. 5. Thanks to GS/USA's sequestering of the best troops into isolated clusters of no more than 15, American girls have next to no experience with tour plans like: "Insert Friday, extract Sunday, we've got everything in between, adults Mrs. ___ and Miss __ will supervise from a distance". That development is arrested until they go to college or the military. They start adulthood trained to manage detail: good preparation for corporals, not so good for generals. So, my larger concern for BSA4G -- at least in early years -- is not girls "outleading" boys. It is adults willing to provide girls the controlled chaos that our boys have grown comfortable with.

Now, if the scouts built the camper themselves, they should count it towards camping nights!

Pertinent sections of the g2ss https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss03/: Overnight camping may include. This is not family camping, which is defined (emphasis mine) as: If staff were National Camp School trained, they should have known about the winter sports helmet recommendation https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/alerts/winter2009/: What's unsaid is what staff did, if anything, to set up a safe-sledding area.