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@FireStone, as a cub who always wondered if some of his awards were "railroaded" trough, I will say this with all due respect. Your pack's approach stinks. It is far better to know that you didn't accomplish something than spend a life wondering if someone pulled some strings for you instead of sitting down and showing you when an how you completed each step in the book. Even the "do your best" standard for each requirement wrankles. Son #2, great at soccer and swimming, was terrible at catching a ball. We tried a couple of tosses back and forth, and there were one or two where you could say the ball landed in his hands, maybe. And one or two throws back that came in my general direction. I called "you did your best" and signed off. He picks on me to this day about it. He would have rather we spent weeks wearing our shoulders raw until he was fit for the major leagues. That kid in a divided house ... do you think a fake award covers for his unenthusiastic parent? Does it help his parent like scouting more? When he gets to Boy Scouts and can't make rank quickly, possibly on account of his situation, will he be able to stick around? Or, will he think identity must be predicated on accomplishment because he never heard "You didn't earn Wolf this year, but that's okay. Please be a Bear with us next year, start fresh, and try to make that rank. No matter what, you are still one of us!" Your pack can do better for a boy than confound accomplishment with identity.

All I am saying is that if you're looking out for new policies on the horizon, the G2SS is the wrong place. The fact that the sex of a trained adult matters for meetings for early adopters is cause for concern. That the professional did not correct herself when I said that requiring a trained adult of a particular sex for even meetings could make Venturing even more unworkable ... but instead acknowledged the problem, is evidence toward the positive. I'd love evidence that refutes what I heard. But, referencing the absence of wording in this year's policy does not support the negative regarding what I noted was on deck next year's policy.

Meanwhile Western PA boys look can't believe that it's true that they have to have adults with them to call it a camping night. BSA: with or without you.

I'll take your quote and raise you a current one from https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/familyscouting/ppt/Early-Adopter-for-Webinar-Council-Leadership.pptx Saturday was when I just heard about this being applied to troops and crews (beginning next year, I suppose). So the usual "show me where it's written" is unlikely to apply.

Define "more". I was using rope hammocks with my patrol for nap times 40 years ago. A neighboring camp had the entire troop under sway. The site looked like an awesome spider's nest. Check out My House In the Woods, a painting by Baden Powell. Mrs Q got us a rope hammock for two not long after we were married. (It was a Kmart blue light special.) As the back started reacting badly to the cold hard lands, and as picnic tables could be hard to find at times, I started to pack that and a tarp instead of a tent. (My only tip: pack about 20' 3/8" rope for a ridge line, and 30' 1/8" parachord to rig a loop for retracting the tarp a la Venetian blind. Don't waste good star-gazing time for fear of an hour of rain.) That thing is still in service as my spare, and I've loaned it out to many a venturer. In the past few years, Mrs Q got each of us outfitted with tech hammocks and netting. (Son #2, especially, "needed" one to keep up with the girlfriend.) It sure is nice to hear dismayed mosquitoes, but the stargazing is a little more of a challenge. And Mrs Q was charmed when, passing by the library, she ran into Son #2 and girlfriend studying in their hammocks. The family who sways together, stays together. We also have a stand-alone canvas hammock suitable for plopping on beach campgrounds or concert festivals. Kids would love when I'd award them for a chore or service by announcing "Now, for xxx, it's hammock time!" As for today's Boy Scouts? They aren't quite as interested. First, there are only so many well-paired trees. Second, there's something to be said for huddling on the ground next to your buddies. Third, for the cost of three tech hammocks, you can buy one nice tech 4-man tent or dozens of tarps, rope, deet, and hiking sticks. As our boys get older, some turn to hammocks; some rig tarps; others, survival shelters. We find the variety of styles allows the boys to grow at their own pace and keeps our footprint quite small. One final thing that I'd like to see more of: demonstrations of how to set up your hammoc on the ground in the absence of trees, how to rig tarps with rain-catchers, convert your gear to game traps, bear bags, first aid gear, etc ....

That "one lodge" decision was pretty fresh scuttlebutt. So, it's likely the rest is being thought through. But, keep in mind there is nothing in O/A's policy that explicitly excludes girls. The requirements were quite intentionally phrased to not mention sex, then national advisors hid behind BSA's policy for troops.

Wendy Shaw, National's Membership Growth Group Director gave the keynote speech and taught a seminar at our UoS this weekend. The keynote was the usual "rah-rah" stuff: Positive media attention (which means little in region where for forty years, press releases usually came in advance of pink slips), Girls dens were growing, some additional boys joined because their sisters were having fun in a den, some dads participated more since the kids shared the activity, ... the usual rose-colored anecdotes. The seminar was more interesting as it focused on the challenges facing troop program rollout on Feb 1. For your edification, I'm sharing my notes, some of which we've hashed out already, but might help us understand what the pros are and are not getting ... Advancement challenges Rogue troops (my term, not hers): how to tell a girl "no" when someone told her "yes"? Eagle scout rank being rushed by 16 year-olds. How to keep it "about the journey, not the destination?" This got a lot of scouters in the room talking, because the girls they knew weren't giving two hoots about advancement. Meanwhile, national is getting inquiries from such girls. The current thinking is that local advancement folks need to have this that conversation. I think the hope is that the best policies may trickle up from them. As far as the requirements themselves are concerned, internally the sentiment is unanimous to make no changes. Externally (i.e. In the media) people have no clue about advancement, so they will not understand why a scout may not be approved for rank. As far as scrutiny by girls: There is a lot of asking about eligibility for World Scout Jamboree, with blog posts by girls saying they can't wait to come. Packs are concerned, each might have one or two AoLs but in sparse districts, a CO might not get the numbers to field a troop. (At this point, I leaned on our council membership pro about a plan to do "girl talks" in those districts' middle schools.) Linked-Troop Besides the common CO, they will share the troop #, and may share COR, MCs, ASMs, but not SMs. I asked, and yes the linked troop will pay a separate rechartering fee. Why this arrangement? The ostensible concern is over youth leadership opportunities. They were very concerned that boys will leave a fully co-Ed unit. However, national won't police troops as to their compliance with "separate but equal" meetings and activities. That will be up to council (I guess through that ubiquitous commissioner corps?). Depth Where a female youth is present, one registered female adult will be required at all activities and meetings of packs, troops, and crews. I interjected, "You do realize that you just killed Venturing?" She didn't disagree. The real problem (not unlike what some of you experienced in the 90s) is that only 2% of trained ASMs/SMs are female. If growth surpasses training, we will be in the same jam as Scouts UK was. Things that aren't changing: The organization remains Boy Scouts of America. The magazine is Boy's Life. Den Chiefs ... actually more venturers have started to fill those positions in the pilot packs. Handbook - girls like the content, The next edition may have more images of girls, but the layout remains the same. O/A will continue to have only one lodge per council. As far as the specific name for troops of female youth, she said they are still taking suggestions. I used "BSA4G" and she was taken aback. I explained, and I think she liked the sound of it. But it clearly shows she's not reading this forum. I'll try to send a link her way. Those are my notes. Hope they help.

Add to your Christmas wish list: mother-of-pearl neckerchief slide!

In terms of clothing alternatives: consider a polar fleece pull-over of thermal underwear. Then maybe a windbreaker for when she goes outside. That strategy comes with its own set of problems ... not the least of them being the need to keep track of more stuff. But, she may tolerate her zipper (never mind the zip-tie jokes), buttons, etc ... if she has an extra layer. P.S. - When I lived with British roommates, I was always impressed with how they put up with the cold.

Don't worry use of the term will fade unless BSA4G does go like gang-busters and makes a profound cultural influence on this second-generation of post-modern nomads. In which case, it would be gratifying to hear someone refer to a public figure with "she's such a boy scout."

Well there is a site that supposedly has the graphics https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2010/11/11/bsa-logos/ but, when I try to click through to the source directory for program logos, I get hour glassed. I think the scoutshop does have decals of the ranks.

I think councils started to set limits around the 50s, but it took national took a while to set the agist policy in stone. From https://www.sageventure.com/history/changes/: The comprehensive list had been on the website, AdultEagleScouts.com, but that site is gone.

Hipster parents may want to consider https://fieldnotesbrand.com/. I used one of these (tan, with graph paper) last year, and found it to be quite convenient. Actually, there used to be a bookbinding merit badge (https://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Bookbinding), which in retrospect, would have been ideal for a scout to take before starting most any other merit badge. In fact, maybe Bookbinding MB would still be in circulation if it had a recursive requirement 4: "Use the notebook you made for requirement 2 to earn one other MB".

@silent-warrior, ditto the welcome. Form any nomination scheme you like (including the one that many of us experienced in the 70s), and I can show you examples of disappointments. The question is, are there more disappointments than successes? Take my family for example. By the books, both I and my sons are what you would call sash-n-dash. Our lodge saw nothing of us after the ordeals. On another, very few would doubt our commitments to scouting, supporting camps, being of service to scouting activities, respect for native tribes, and introducing people who've never gone camping or hiking before to extended time in the out-of-doors. Much of which was inspired by our ordeal membership. We launched a venturing crew, and it caught a lot of kids that Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts "missed". Doing so consumed tremendous time and energy. We were left with choices: devote time to O/A or devote time to teaching girls and boys who never experienced troop life its principles. The Arrowmen in our lodge did not begrudge our choosing the former, so that is where we put our time. All that to say, I don't ask O/A to provide me with a better elections system, because it's very difficult to really prove. They lack any credible metric to test the success/failure of one vs. the other. Finally, to your point regarding what is said to scouts who weren't elected: Condescension, by definition, occurs when one who is elevated speaks to one who is not. So yes, the phrase is condescending. But it is not necessarily inaccurate. Nor is all condescension immoral or harmful. How many boys quit because of this particular act of condescension? Of the boys in our troop who have heard those words (about 5 or six, I think, over quite some years), all of them stayed in the troop to run again and eventually get elected. The scout who lost multiple times became one of the more active in his lodge. Your mileage may vary.

We try to go down the list with the scout and help find a counselor in the neighborhood ... preferably someone he or I know. When I was a scout, I didn't have my own counselor list. I had to go to the scout house and look up counselors on the bulletin board. Then I would write down the number of one in my notebook. i try to make sure scouts have the same experience.

I'm sorry for any pain inflicted. I saw the sculpture, typed the pun, considered canceling. and thought, too marbleous to not submit. Now where were we? Oh yes ... citizens of the world ... outdoors and national boundaries ... where no man has gone before ...

Two days thinking and I still can't make up my mind! Was it 1st Aid? Rowing? Lifesaving? Archery? Envi. sci? Pioneering? Small Boat Sailing? Communications? Wilderness? .... Each came with a great story and friends and sometimes cuts and bruises and something new. I keep going around and around and can't pick a fav!

Well, this thread's gone bust.

@numbersnerd, I'm not particularly concerned about a wide base ... just those who want to keep accountability in the hands of your best-trained boys, and use adults as back-up. Thus, although I like using on-line forms for crew sign-ups because my venturers were learning how to operate a club, I don't like it (or other online form tools) for troop sign-ups because it seems to take control from the scouts. Right now, we are experiencing a bit of a renaissance because we have our web-master copy info from sign-up sheets and sync it with the online sign-up. I don't suspect the next webmaster will be as meticulous. These positions come in waves. Obviously, the killer app would "read" the image of the photographed page and file each sign-off in an appropriate category. But, who needs that much detail at their fingertips, really?

It often feels like a class is needed to help boys disentangle the verbiage in each badge. You're not wrong about that. How, in our litigious society, do we convince professionals (who are painfully aware of the nature of our litigious society) to write plainly? That is a question worth half the cost of each pamphlet!

@sst3rd, excellent mentoring! File the new dad's opinions under "you can lead a horse to water ..." The only chance you have of convincing him is if you or the SM know of a young adult who dropped out of scouting because of the "parent trap," and he is willing to have a sit-down with you, the SM and the dad. Have you considered becoming this troops UC? Or, is somebody who you trust already in the position?

@'Lope, welcome to the forum. Do look up the guide on the O/A's website. My understanding: Even if other requirements are met the SM may decide if a scout should or should not be a candidate for election. (Clearly, the SM did decide that this boy was worthy to be on the ballot.) But, the SM may not override the vote of the scouts. So, yes, this is a learning tool. I've found that this usually means figuring out what younger scouts don't like about your behavior. Deciding if you want to change that behavior. And changing accordingly.

If youth in both groups all share a common vision regarding activities, service projects, and awards to pursue, then merge. If both groups are really venturing, they will have envisioned different activities, service projects, and awards to pursue. Regarding a big recruiting drive. Do you have something that your youth believe they need but can't get elsewhere? Then push with all you've got. If not, fold. It really stunk that I had something that about 4 youth kinda sorta needed and one youth really needed (to the point that he was willing to sign on as crew president), but when I said, "Time to push." They all backed away. I took it as a sign to drop that charter.

You guys are starting to make me feel really nervous about the course I'm teaching at UoS Saturday. If someone walks out, I loose 1/4 of the class.

@Eagle1993, I've been hearing this UK model touted for decades. It's not very intuitive in my community since the Jr./Sr. High school kids share the same building and, where possible, participate in activities and classes together. I must again, without any prejudice, remind us that we aren't British.