pohsuwed

eagle1977, I just continue to love hearing arguments against this concept based on "this scout" or "that scout". Please take the time to think through this idea: Spend an hour or two and go to my website www.meritbadgeknot.com. Click on the names of the scouts listed to read a little more about each of them. For some of them I have very little information, but for many I have been able to find good information about them. As you read through them, count those who are "undeserving of continued recognition" and those who went significantly above and beyond. Then compare that ratio with the masses of scouts in the general population, most of which don't even earn the rank of Star. And who should we assume got the most benefit from the scouting program? I have spoken with quite of few of these scouts and/or their parents. One reoccuring piece of feedback I get from them is the fact that they are continually criticized by those around them for their efforts. Frankly, the only real response that I can come up with is that it is simple jealousy. I know this statement will elicit plenty of responses, but I don't know how much I care about it at this point. Imagine this - if we were to consider your version of the "optimal" scout who has gotten the most of the program you may think that this is a 16 year old Eagle with 25 merit badges (none of the simple ones, of course), years of leadership experience who eventually exits the program with perfect morals, discipline, etc. Does this mean you criticize those who do not fit your "optimal" mold? There is a lot of criticizm for my concept, but why is there very little criticism for the other side of the spectrum referring to the large majority of scouts who don't even make the rank of Eagle, Life, or even Star? Finally, I will take a moment to make a personal statement to make this issue as clear as possible. In your profile you state that you are a 12 year active service veteran. Why not just say that you are a veteran? Why did you even need to mention in in the first place when the profile asks for "interests" information? I guess you are interested in letting everyone know that you are a "12 year active duty veteran". Obviously this is an important achievement of yours, but what you are telling me with your statements regarding my knot concept is that you should just be happy knowing that you were a 12 year veteran and not feel the need to continue to be recognized for it. (Before anyone attacks me on this let it be known that this is not a statement regarding my personal feelings on the role our veterans have played in the freedoms we enjoy.) People love pointing fingers at my concept when in reality they fall into the same boat, just in different circumstances. And your statements regarding the "maturing" scout would be like me attempting to discredit your military service by quoting a news story about a similarly-tenured military veteran who has been convicted of some serious crime. How relevant would that be?

This is a real interesting group. Most complain about "Eagle Mills" and then there is the post like this regarding a "last minute Eagle" where it appears as though the general tone is to let the scout fail because he waited too long. If anyone were to state the best practices of a scout troop and Eagle advancement timeline, my guess is that you would all state something like a 15-16 year old Eagle is "optimal" with leaders along the way helping with sufficient motivation to avoid this last minute scenario. (There was actually a silly thread recently about holding scouts back until they are 17 to make sure they were ready for Eagle! Since when is age a requirement?) You would probably also state that every scout should become Eagle. You probably wouldn't say that there should be a percentage of the scouts who are filler scouts who shouldn't make Eagle just to make it a more true to life scenario. So how is does this differ from the insinuated definition of an "Eagle Mill"? My guess is that everyone's definition of the Eagle Mill is a troop that has more Eagles than their own! Which is why I just wish everyone would admit that although the program will never be implemented perfectly whether by leaders or scouts, there is a lot of value that can be and will continue to be had with the program in the lives of scouts!

American Business Emergency Preparedness Fly Fishing Entrepreneurship Personal Management Public Speaking Scholarship What a great thread! Not a single accusation from anyone that another's list is too long, too short, or other random bickering that is generally present in these forums. Talk about a breath of fresh air! (And looking at the lists, it appears that BW and I actually have a couple things in common!)(This message has been edited by pohsuwed)

scoutldr - Thanks for checking out the website. For those scouts where I couldn't verify if they were over 18 I only listed their first name. This was from a great suggestion from one of the members of the forum (I'm sorry, but I forgot who it was!). The majority of scouts listed have been from general online searches. Probably six or seven have been people passing names to me that I was able to verify through more focused online searches. I currently have two names from e-mails that I have been trying to contact to verify their status. So far, everything has been verified through some sort of publication on the scout's achievement. The concentration of Utah names is partly due to a hard-copy publication listing achievements of LDS scouts that was shared with me by a local scouter (I think I got eight names off that listing, not all of them were from Utah). Otherwise, is primarily a function of what information is available online and what people have sent to me.

Thanks for the comment, NeilLup. A couple items that may help you understand the concept better can be found on my website. It is the reference to the use of the knot as a device to represent a rack of palms earned by earning additional merit badges. I'm not advocating that scouts should be encouraged to earn all the merit badges. I'm just advocating that if a scout does it, don't allow the difficulties of wearing a bunch of palms force them to remove the recognition from their uniform, which recognition has been a part of scouting for many years. And there will always be the argument that a boy earning more than 21 merit badges means that he has a non-balanced life. Plenty of assumptions get built into these statements that can hardly be applied universally. One that I will pick on is the issue of a scout then only doing the minimum required to earn a badge. How many Eagles do you know that barely earn their Eagle, especially with parent involvement? I know more of these any any that earned more than 30 merit badges. I'm not willing to apply an overgeneralization to these scouts that because they only did the required work to get Eagle that they took full advantage of the other areas of scouting and have a "balanced life". However, I'm also not willing to say that they don't have a balanced life. One thing I will say is that if a boy has 100 merit badges versus a boy who has 21, chances are pretty good that the boy has had more experience and knowledge than the one who has 21. "Balance" can be defined any number of ways. Regarding the baseball analogy, it could easily be argued that the person who travels to every ballpark would pick up much more other life experience along the way versus the person who stays at home studying the game. Likewise, I think everyone would agree that the purpose of a merit badge in scouting is to give scouts experience and general knowledge in the merit badge area, not make them experts in that area. Passing off a merit badge does not require a closed-book proctored exam for a reason. Along the same lines, what is the fundamental concept behind the required merit badges? If they are going to earn the rank of Eagle, the boys must at least learn things in a few core areas. Then let them pick from other areas that interest them. If the idea of being recognized for earning additional merit badges is unattractive, I would first suggest petitioning BSA to remove merit badges all together. If that is not an option I would suggest petitioning BSA to remove Palms. If either are removed, then a foundation of my petition to them is removed as well.

We have received our shipment of knots. We have also updated our website and have 37 scouts in our registry with more being followed up on. Please feel free to peruse the site at www.meritbadgeknot.com.

Thanks for the question. I am more than happy to update everyone on this. I have been able to locate several more scouts for the list with one dating back to 1958. The list is now up to 36 scouts. I have one person who is looking for information on another five or six that he has known over the years. I have also received some fantastic feedback from one scouter regarding their personal experience with National attempting similar efforts. It has been good to understand better what I am up against. Otherwise, I am working on developing my presentation. I have had several ideas of what should information should be included and what should not be included as well as how to boil it down to the simplest form possible. When I get it done/near done I would be happy to share it with anyone who is interested. Just send me a message with information on how to get it to you. It will be a while, though, before it is to that point, I'm sure.

Hops - Consider this idea when it comes to quality, constructive time spent by teenagers today. I bet that there are more scouts in the average troop that know better how to get past the first few levels on the shoot-em-up video game Halo than know how to tie and funcationally use eight basic knots. From experience I know that half of them could kill my Halo character before I could even figure out how to use the controls. And that half of the boys probably couldn't tie three basic knots--and if they were lucky enough to tie an actual knot, they woudn't be able to identify it! And sure, Nuclear Science may be "mindless" to many, but which would most mothers prefer their scouts to do? Learn the basic fundamentals of nuclear science or find where the weapons cache is on level 4? Unfortunately, kids these days have plenty of time to do this other "stuff" and do it very well. I would think that more time spent on constructive, educational, and hands-on activity would do everyone good. (Interestingly, I saw a commercial on a children's TV channel the other day encouraging kids to play actively outside.) My wife is a stay-at-home mother, and she is very glad to have scouting (my oldest son is nine and working on his Bear badge) to provide an additional "curriculum" of broad educational activities and learning experiences. Regarding my youth, even though I was always in the middle of at least a couple merit badges, I had plenty of time to letter in multiple sports, take piano instruction through high school, date, work, and plenty more. In the end, scouting is about learning and personal growth. If people who are into this drive you nuts consider learning how to play Halo or similar game. Your troop kids would probably be more than willing to start you off with a few lessons. I personally didn't make it past the first lesson. (If none of your troop kids know how to play these games consider yourself blessed.)

OGE-You bring up a good point that I will clarify for you. I did call National yesterday to discuss this point. I got to an assistant of one of the people in the Advancement group. She would not pass me through to him as he was not available. I did, however, ask her several questions about the process. She informed me that the Advancement group will be meeting in October and that I can submit a letter. I told her what I was wanting to accomplish. She told me that she has heard of the idea before. I asked her about the deliberations that they make as she informed me that she has sat in the meeting before. She gave me an idea of the process. I asked then if I can have the name of a person I can write to in the mean time to get some feedback from before I present my "official request" to the achievement group and she gave me a name and address. My understanding from my conversation with her is that I will need to have a very well thought out and concise letter for them to review, such as I mentioned in my post. So, if the question is whether I really spoke with someone at National, the answer is yes. Did I speak with the a decision maker? No. Did I speak with someone who could guide me as to my presentation to them as suggested in my post, yes. BW-You bring up the same point again. Thanks.

What really is the case here? I personally see a good case of "groupthink." This is when a group of individuals sheds their individual thoughts and replaces it with the concensus of the group, even though they may not individually follow the group. This causes the group to act and react in different ways than the individuals in the group themselves would act individually. Don't take this as an insult that the members of this forum have become the "borg" from Star Trek. If you think about it, groupthink is rampant everywhere. You can see examples of it all over. Consider the previous post. Is this a call to remove anything that could be construed as mindless activities and paperwork from scouting? There is plenty of it, that's for sure. However, I guess it depends on your perspective. Along with the mindless activity and paperwork there are a lot of skills and lessons learned. After all, the program is meant to prepare boys for fulfilling lives full of achievement, service, and leadership. And how many of our lives are void of mindless activities and paperwork? I would venture to be that those of us who have the funnest professions still have plenty of this on our plates. But is this post a sincere argument against the idea of merit badges all together? Or is it simply going with the group not liking the knot idea? Because frankly, I don't see any correlation to hops' two statement. His final statement should have been that he thinks merit badges should be done away with rather than the idea of a knot for earning all the merit badges. After all, the knot simply represents merit badges and it was the mindless activities and paperwork that merit badges represent that he doesn't like. This is still great feedback, though. I was discussing the whole idea with National yesterday, and I realize that I'm going to need to present a very thorough presentation for them to consider it. And the feedback here lets me know just how people may be thinking of this. If I can address these issues initially with them I'm sure it will have a greater chance of happening, officially. Thank you everyone!

Blade - Reviewing your other posts in other threads today I know you are both familiar with the Insignia Guide and at least some motivational theory involving knots. Because of this I'm not quite understanding your statement in this thread that nobody cares if someone earns more than 21 merit badges. The Insignia Guide specifically states that for scouters Palms are to be worn on the Eagle Scout Knot, thus highlighting additional merit badge achievements. If nobody cared, Palms wouldn't be issued in the first place, and there surely wouldn't be a place for them on an adult uniform. You correctly state in another thread regarding knots that "if you want a certain behavior to increase, reward it." I would think that this would be a complimentary statement to anything you would say on this thread. But it wasn't. So I'm not quite sure where you stand on this issue. Surely you aren't saying that scouts should stop at 21 merit badges or that Palms should be done away with? Also, you may understand this idea better by reading my prior post on Palms. And scoutldr, I'll make sure I follow the guidelines on that. I think the list is compliant currently, but I'll need to check a couple names to make sure. Thanks for the insight.

Yes, I hear what you are saying. Please realize that I understand the concept of producing "unofficial" emblems, knots, etc and do not consider opinions contrary to be attacks. Any reference to an attack has been in the manner of delivery. I can handle people opposing my opinion. It happens all the time. And in cases where I agree to change, most people have enough respect to recognize the change without continuing to harass me for my initial position (as in the case of the word "elite" that Bob just loves to highlight). Regarding the correctness of a knot? Please be sure to read my post or website regarding Eagle Palms. Yes, this is still opinion, but not necessarily in left field. Regarding including BSA, please be sure to read my post where I mentioned that I have called BSA but have not received any response back to my message. Yes, I didn't include them in the beginning, but based on the input of the forum I am now. Will I continue to get beat over the head about this also? Is it an appropriate practice to reprimand scouts over and over again for things that you recognize they have learned after you reprimanded them the first time? Let's not let this get ugly. I think that my opinion and position on this pretty clear here in the forum and on my website. I have taken all of your input to heart and am workin through it. If it doesn't work out, then just consider me like the Wood Badge folks who want to have an official knot too. >>>> But if you ever see one of my knots worn on a uniform, patch blanket, hat, or anywhere else, realize that it doesn't represent an egotistical scout or some crazy guy named Troy with an on-the-fringe idea, but that it represents a scout dedicated to knowledge, service and leadership in his troop, and a scout that will probably be a great person to have around your troop or council (obviously referring to the scout wearing the knot--I don't think anyone would think that of me at this point).

Yes, Bob's e-mail to me was as I expected. I was and continue to be wrong and full of pride. I can live with that. As comments are dwindling on this thread I'll give a last thank you to everyone who has offered their thoughts, both on and off the forum. My website has changed dramatically since I created the initial site last Saturday. The content has improved dramatically because of input from you, and I have had the time to complete almost all of my initial content plans, including a memorial note regarding my brother, Ryan, who passed away in 2001. He was a great scout and an inspiration to many other scouts, not just his brothers. (And by the way, my oldest brother knows I'm not throwing him under the bus just because he earned 56 or so merit badges. Ha ha.) Please feel free to visit it, and please pass along information for the registry. We would greatly appreciate it. I think that with the presentation we have developed we might have at least a chance with National liking the idea. We'll have to see. And if you have further comments, please don't hesitate to throw them at me! Thank you all again. Troy.

And then a final note that I should make clearer on the forum: I am not necessarily wanting to create a "new" award for myself or others. As everyone knows, a knot is a representation of another award presented. Call it a convenience to the wearer of a knot to avoid wearing multiple medals, patches, pins, or whatever the award was. At some point in time the whole idea of the square knot was developed by some individual(s) who did not want to wear all of their awards on their uniform yet still wanted to be recognized as having earned them. Im sure nobody would criticize these forefathers of scouting as being egomaniacs for wanting to consolidate insignia in a simplified fashion. In the situation at hand, the award that has already been presented would be Eagle Palms. The Insignia Guide states that palms are to be worn by both scouts and scouters on the Eagle Award ribbon for scouts and on the Eagle Square Knot for scouters. As a youth it was difficult enough to fit seven palms on an Eagle Award ribbon let alone putting them all on the smaller square knot. Hence the idea was born to modify how this mass of palms are representedthrough the use of a separate knot. Sure, I can imagine that there then would need to be a line drawn as to how many palms would equate to a knot as six palms would also be difficult to wear, although that is not all of the merit badges. No idea is perfect, and this is in my opinion the only drawback. Hence, make the knot for the achievement of all merit badges. Or there could be some variations that can be included. And yes, regardless of what I say here I understand that this all can still be construed as another award. So be it. Ill just have to take my lumps for that too. And by the way, the National Council has yet to return my phone call on these ideas. (This message has been edited by pohsuwed)

Bob, this is my otherwise private message diluted just a little to hopefully pass muster for the forum. After all, I think what I have to say here is a good for the forum message. (By the way, it may be your e-mail settings causing your problems as I have had other private message exchanges on the forum with no problems.) >>>>>START OF PRIVATE MESSAGE>>>>> The reason you have received comments from others against your position (thus frustrating you) may be because you came out attacking me so quickly. I took your feedback appropriately and modified my website by removing the images. You then attacked the use of the word "elite." I took note and changed that too, as this was surely an inappropriate word for me to use. (See, I'm learning. Yet you continue to focus on this.) You call me an egomaniac because of an idea that would recognize a hard working group of scouts, just because I am part of that group. Have you given any thought that this might be a good idea? Or are you tearing it down just because I am in the group? I responded to the ego comment by pointing out your profile simply to make a point that you ended up not understanding. It was not to say that you yourself were egotistical. I will clarify it here: There are two types of people. One type is the kind who will focus on the negative and then others who are more positive and constructive. Looking at your profile and comparing it with others I would simply consider you to be experienced. I would not make a quick judgment that you were an egomaniac just because your profile had a long list of credentials compared to others. I would consider myself to be the positive and constructive type because of this. You, on the other hand, have shown that you will make brash judgments about my character and ethics based on very little information about me. Everyone can see that I took your words (and others words) to heart, made changes to improve, and thanked the forum for their input. You continued to rage until you were left standing alone wondering why everyone was now giving you a hard time. This often happens to the negative type. A tip from me to you may be to take a deep breath and recognize that your input has helped and that I do appreciate it, so not all is lost on this thread. Next, recognize that I changed based on your input so it is no longer necessary to beat the dead horse. Then take a minute to think about the anonymity factor of forums and consider the others in the forum to be sitting across a table from you. While they may want to know if they are doing something wrong it isnt very effective to yell across the table at them as you did in the forum. You very well may change the way you interact with people on the forum if you consider this. And if you dont consider this, it may be worth your while to look again as you may continue to have similar problems in the future. Either way, thanks for your input. I realize that this may come across as somewhat patronistic as I am probably your junior by at least a few years. If you take it as such you will only be frustrating yourself as this is not how it is intended. This forum has been a great experience. And if you give me your address Ill gladly send you your very own and highly controversial Merit Badge Knot for your knotty collection. >>>>> END OF PRIVATE MESSAGE>>>>>>

I guess a fundamental question that has probably been discussed plenty in this forum goes down to the balance between personal/group achievement and program participation. I personally believe that both go hand in hand as in any group of scouts you will have those who are motivated by achievement and you will have others who are motivated simply by being with the group and doing fun things. Most boys probably have some of both in them. I would hate to see the idea of achievement taken out of the scouting program as it would turn the program into what we see in youth sports today - desiring not to offend those who lost the game everyone is rewarded the same. If this happened in scouting today everyone would either be the Boy Scout rank or Eagle, whichever BSA choose. I am personally motivated by achievement as it gives me a goal to shoot for. But I would hate to only be focused on achievement as that would leave some boys unmotivated. So a balanced approach is most appropriate to capture the attention of the greater number of boys.

Bob White - I sent you another private message. Please check your inbox carefully, and if you don't receive it I'll send it again.

I truly appreciate everyones input on this issue. Many of your comments have helped quite a bit. Others, obviously, havent helped that much, but thats okay. I have modified my website several times as posts came in to make the content more appropriate. I will continue to update and work on this website, so please feel free to continue to provide input. I must say that I am somewhat surprised by some of the responses I got from all of this. After a couple posts it seemed like I would soon be approached by a mob with pitchforks and rope. After Bob Whites posts I wondered if he would launch a pre-emptive strike on my house. He was very quick to call me an egomaniac with the very little information that he knows about me. Interestingly, out of everyone who posted on this thread, Bob has the longest list of positions in his profile. I personally wouldnt be the first one to call him an egomaniac because he listed so many credentials; I would simply call him experienced. I guess that just tells you the difference between him and me. Ill pick on Bob White a little bit more, hopefully to highlight an interesting point to hopefully improve the funcation of this message board. I sent Bob a private message after his first post regarding his quick reaction to my post. I was fairly blunt with him, and I felt like I had the ability to be blunt as it was a private message. In the end I dont think anything I said made a difference to him including feel free to forward me the official method to persuading BSA to recognize these scouts with a knot. Rather than attempting to provide constructive advice he chose to continue to flog me in the forum. Im sure that this forum is not designed to destroy people and their ideas, but to operate as a collective brain trust to work through ideas and concepts. I appreciate those of you who have helped me work through this idea by offering constructive ideas, opinions, and support (both for and against my ideas). Please feel free to visit my website any time. I have added new content regarding the idealogy of this knot that you may appreciate. From this thread I have received additional names that have been added to the registry, and I appreciate it. Please continue to send names or alert people about the registry. Thank you very much.

Bob White - Thank you for your comments (not your diplomacy). I have taken note and modified my website accordingly. Aquila Calva - Thank you for your support and note that this may be a difficult effort. It is understandable that this achievement is not rewarded as so few people would ever earn it. Expending the resources required (just going forward with new achievers) to do this just would not make sense. So if I do get a letter stating this I will understand already. Thanks!

Back when I was a scout I was the youngest of four boys in my family to become an Eagle Scout. But that was not all, three of us earned all the merit badges possible, and the oldest (the one who gave the rest of us the idea) earned over half of them. We have long thought that there should be an official award square knot for this achievement. But the BSA doesn't even keep track of this feat, so we have felt that there would be little attraction for them. So we have designed a private issue knot that should be available mid-June. We are very excited about this knot and are happy with the quality producer we have found to create it for us. Information on this knot as well as an image of what it will look like including a description of the design can be found at www.meritbadgeknot.com. At the same time we have decided to begin the creation of a registry of scouts, old and new, who have earned all the merit badges available to them as scouts. So far our list is just short of 20 scouts, and this was found through online searches. We are sure that many of you on this forum know of scouts in this elite group (or may be yourselves). In whichever way you feel comfortable, please let us know who these scouts are. You can post information on this forum, e-mail me at troy@meritbadgeknot.com, or simply tell the scout about our website. We think this listing will be great recognition to those scouts who have earned all the merit badges, and hopefully one day our private issue unofficial knot will become official! Thank you for your consideration!