pjzedalis

-Let me repost, one second.(This message has been edited by pjzedalis)

I find your reply disheartening. Screw the Eagle "challenge." Are we not admitting depressed young men as Eagle Scouts because they aren't cheerful? What about a in-the-closet gay... or what if you decide your gay AFTER you make Eagle Scout... is it revoked because you don't meet the "challenge." I work full time, I pay my taxes, I vote, I don't have any criminal problems and I'm a good guy. I learned alot from the program, made some good friends, had a great project, alot of people helped me, and I earned the rank. But at the end of the day, I have to be happy with myself in life. And what Boy Scouts of America or someone else thinks an Eagle Scout *should* be does not interest me very much. I have to answer to myself. You can call me a paper Eagle Scout all you want... and if it makes you feel better... I'll send you my paper. I made it right before I was 18 because I was lazy. So I never wore the badge anyway. You can have it if all Boy Scouting has become is an idealist clique. I'll send the badge too. Phillip

Well, I'm not a former High School graduate. But I don't generally like to be referred as an Eagle Scout either. I'm not active in the program, and I don't agree with all of it's ideals. So the word Eagle Scout is nothing more to me than accomplishing the highest rank. It's not a model or religious ideal to live by for me.

Oh don't worry, I respect their decision. Obviously there are 18-21 year olds that do... I was just stating my "opinion." I think it's great for the young men who have the time and interest to do it. I'm just saying I don't. I like to capitalize on the point that not every Eagle Scout is a God, nor plans on "giving back" to the troop. In one thread someone was discussing whether they should allow a certain scout to move up to Eagle... and one of their "facts" about this Scout was that he did not seem likely to "give back" to the troop. I find that to be irrelevant to him getting his Eagle Scout. So I like to remind people that we were still boys when we recieved our Eagle Scout award... It's not the end all - be all that some people make it out to be. Phillip

I don't think it's that big of an issue. What 18-21 year old really wants to be that involved? By the time you are 18-21, you should have made Eagle Scout, and moved on with your life... find the next big thing to help yourself. Im 20... When I made Eagle, I wanted to continue coming and helping out. After a campout and a few meetings, I got tired of baby sitting 14 year olds... just like I had when I was 16. I moved on, got a girlfriend, and la la la. My parents were lucky they could keep me interested enough to get my Eagle Scout. And although I want the best for the program and would still like to contribute from time to time (here I am, haha)... living in a different city, with a fulltime job, girlfriend, etc... doesn't make that feasible. I think it's a non issue. Tell your 20 year old sons to go to college instead of a troop meeting. It will benefit them more in the long run. Phillip

I vote NO. The punishment does not fit the crime. Every Scout recites the Scout Oath and Law. They are not exclusive to becoming or being an Eagle Scout. So if anything, if this is a credible concern, you should be considering kicking him out of the Troop... not disabling his ability to advance. But even then, Scouts are not Gods. The Scout Oath and Law are ideals to live by. Much like every US citizen should vote... but they surely don't. I think if you want to disable his ability to make Eagle Scout that you should return your High School Diploma for skipping class once or twice. Besides, it's all hearsay... let the parents handle their kids. You are there to run a Scout Troop... not a religious sect. Phillip

"Scout" Because getting them to sign up is the hardest part.

I think this is crazy. Clearly the Scout was punished (and multiple people agreed to it's severity) at the Jamboree. The home troop should not have anything to do with this other than to be notified that it occured. Your discussions on this Scout being on the "Dark Side" from time to time... well we all are. I am an Eagle Scout, and I can surely tell you that I don't always fall the Scout Oath/Law. It's a judgement call, and I'm proud of who I am and my Eagle Scout. I worked my ass off for it. So here's a young man who has some disturbing theories on what is "morally right" but clearly has some exceptional leadership abilities. This sounds like a young man who needs a hero/mentor. The Scoutmaster should not only keep him on as the SPL, but he should grant this young man more opportunities to excel. I find with my peers and myself that bad behavior or misguided decisions are often only done when they/I am bored. Now I'm not saying that the Jamboree was boring so he decided to steal patches... but stealing a few patches is minor compared to alot of worse things he could have done. So you might want to review the real root of the problem, and help guide him to the "Good side." I couldn't think of a better program for troubled youth... yet many of the parents in Scouting expect every Scout to be an Eagle Scout upon joining... and they just aren't. You learn alot on the path... and SPL is just a short term position... Guide this young man on the appropriate path and give him incentive to excel... and watch him grow. Don't turn a blind eye towards him and punish him. Phillip

I started a similar program a few months ago, but ran in to the same roadblocks. Without ScoutNET compatibility, there really is no reason to use said program over one of the commercial implementations. The closest thing I got to "discovering" the formatting of the report was reverse engineering and decompiling one of the commercial implementations. Of course, this isn't exactly ethical, nor documented and guaranteed to work. I'm sure like anything as massive and undocumented as ScoutNET *appears* to be from the outside World, there are going to be minor nuiances that will prevent my "hacked" attempts from working 100% of the time. But frankly, at this point in the game... I don't think ScoutNET is really all that important. If BSA wants to keep it's data formats proprietary and feed the commercialized entities who are monopolizing us with old and un-connected software... then so be it. If the "open source" movement is so proud and dedicated as it wants to proclaim... it will start to co-exist without ScoutNET... and eventually BSA will desire it's data... Then we can discuss interoperability. Phillip

Has he made it apparent he wants to be in your Hall of Fame? Eagle Scouts have credentials, tell him that because you don't have the records to prove anything, that if he shows you his credentials, you can add him to your Hall of Fame. Instead of calling National, or doing all this private investigation, just be frank with the man. Tell him that you really want to honor his accomplishment but since the Troop did such a bad job at record keeping back then, if he could show you some evidence of his award, you'd love to honor it. Coming from an Eagle Scout, I would feel perfectly fine showing you my Eagle Scout card. If I didn't have one, I'd rather contact National myself and getting replacement credentials versus you going behind my back trying to verify the information. Eagle Scout is a fantastic honor, but its not worth potentially invading his privacy by investigating something that doesn't really impact anything. If it were a matter of safety, sure! Call National, but if your just researching for your Hall of Fame... just approach him directly. Also be aware that unit numbers are not always consistent, and even though you belong to unit XXX, does not mean its really the same unit, as charters and such move around quite often where I am from. Phillip

Nice reply Rooster7. I'll agree that most of my arguments are rather pointless. I mean, everyone has their beliefs and not much anyone can really do to change others except active education, etc. Sure I am a young. I am naive. Sure I am a college student. I have liberal professors. Sure I am a liberal. But it's kinda hard not to be. It's hard for me to accept that many of the people I go to school with are "sinners" or "terrible evil" people. It's hard to believe that a gay friend of mine is gay. It's hard to believe that my gay friend is doing a total evil, horrible, thing by loving another man. It's hard to believe that my gay friend loves his lover any less than I love my significant other. It's hard to believe many things in life. And to be honest, most of us "liberal" teenagers do not really care anymore. Sure, you all did it. You smoked your pot, you drank your beers, you went to your wild peace fests, and you screamed for freedom. It happened then, and it happens now. And maybe the truth is, once people grow up, find a career, have kids... they start to respect all those conservative ideas that their parents taught them. Maybe we start to learn that morals, purity, justice, that these things are not given in this World, and that only through perserverance can this great country stay free. Yet I see the same people who preach about the great injustices of the past, and the great ideals of conservatism that hold this World together... and I can't help but think that maybe one day... one day... my gay friend might be accepted. And even if he isn't accepted by you. I am sure some generations after you will accept them. Because it's only becoming more common, more noted, more "normal." We don't beat up the gays, we don't harass them like we did four years ago, most of us even have a bisexual or homosexual friend or two. It's becoming normal. And since we are all naive, liberal, and crazy... well... maybe the future is already gone. But if you ask me to banish my friends, and my ideals of tolerance... well... you can have your Bible and sacred books back. I don't want to learn from you. Phillip

I missed something in the poster's plea. How does a public prayer over loud speakers being banned prevent YOU from praying silently to yourself? No one is saying you can't pray. Just saying it's rude for the "multi-cultural" nation we are. But hey... you want your loud speaker prayers, that's fine. But you better stop the game when the Muslims want to whip out their rugs on the football field (can't do it in the bleachers!) and pray to their version of "God." It's only fair. Phillip

I am an Eagle Scout. A Scout Is Trustworthy Loyal Helpful Friendly Courteous Kind Obedient Cheerful Thrifty Brave Clean Reverent I missed where it said "A Scout is Heterosexual" or "A Scout is a Christian." I am an Eagle Scout. But those of you who feel that homosexuals in Scouting hinder the program apall me. Just because someone is homosexual, does not mean they spend every waking moment flagging down people looking for sex. If you are the great parents you say you are, your boys (hetero and homo) have been taught morals. Those morals will include common decency. I am tired of this stupid criticism. I have many a gay friend, and none of them are morally impure. None of them make 24/7 sexual advances on any man in sight. So what are you afraid of? Conservatives take the honor right out of me, because I do live up to the Law I promised to strive for. Phillip

If I were a Scout and you did the YP route on me and got the Council involved, not only would I be discouraged and quit Scouting... but my parents would likely force me out of Scouting. Some things in BSA regulations is more/less designed to protect the BSA in case any infraction of the law were to be documented and charged against the BSA for condoning such activities. Hence I believe they take the stance that any such activity must be documented with the Council. But I believe the Committee represents the active parents who are concerned enough to attend... so they should really be the first to decide where it goes. Discipline procedures to my understanding are a Committee problem. In my Troop, if someone continuously disregarded the rules despite the Committee's warning, an action of removing them from the Troop was taken. They felt the best way to do this was to THEN discuss the situation with the council/district executive, who could back them up in their decision. I believe the council/district offices are designed to support the Troops, not regulate everything. Phillip(This message has been edited by pjzedalis)

Although I am not an Adult Leader, I am a 19 year Eagle Scout College Student type guy. I have been on enough Pack/Troop outings through my years as a Webelos Scout, then a Den Chief, etc... and my time in the Troop all the way up to ASM to know this... Some people love to throw BSA-Regulation Piss Parties. It's basically where two people go back and forth about exactly what BSA regulations are and are not. In most situation, it stays contained to those two people, but can get alot worse. Also in most situations, neither party have any documentation with them that really can prove/disprove any of the immediate problems at hand. And even so, if you did have documentation, would that really satisfy the losing party? And also, what type of role model figure are both parties serving as? I tend to believe that the party that just shrugs their shoulders, acts concerned, and handles it in their own mature way tend to be the most gracious to the young Scouts who are in observation (whether you realize it or not). Ultimately, the BSA regulations are designed for the safety of the unit, which means that ultimately the safety of the unit is in YOUR hands as an adult leader. If you have a problem with the way your Pack is being led, then as a member Parent, you have the right and the responsibility to voice your opinions. But as a non-parent member of a Pack you are observing, is it really in your right to say much? Unless there is a SERIOUS issue of Safety, then I can't imagine any reason why it would be the mature or even right thing to do. How did they know whether the two kids were siblings. Even if they weren't, does it really affect them? Leadership is about growth just as much as being led, most people will only learn things for themselves. So I believe if you felt you did the mature and responsible thing, then you were in the right. If not, better luck next time. But perhaps I am naive. Phillip