Pint

not very often this happens - some possitive stuff about Scouting in the media The Gaurdian ( UK national newspaper )"How Scouts became cool again " http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/apr/19/scout-association The Express (UK national newspaper ) "TEENAGERS RUSH TO JOIN SCOUTS " http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/170056/Teenagers-rush-to-join-Scouts The Daily mail ( UK national newspaper ) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1267093/Scouts-biggest-membership-surge-decade.html?ITO=1490 BBC "Scout level rise biggest in 38 years" http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8628871.stm More here http://www.scouts.org.uk/media/

Scouting is a global movement, and it is based on three core principles, that re reflected in the Promise (oath) and Scout Law that exists in every National Scouting Body, even those that arent aligned/ members of WOSM Duty to God Duty to others Duty to self the Purpose of Scouting is: "The purpose of the Scout Movement is to contribute to the development of young people in achieving their full physical, intellectual, emotional, social and spiritual potentials as individuals, as responsible citizens and as members of their local, national and international communities." This is taken from the constitution of the World Organisation of the Scout Movement (WOSM) you can read it in full here: http://scout.org/en/information_events/library/fundamentals_of_scouting/constitution_of_w_o_s_m Instead of complaining about the policy's of your national Scouting organisation with regards to relegion, or the denial of it, you should look beyond your local/regional/national boundary's and to the global side of things. Also when looking into how a (nation) state funds different groups, how many other groups that receive tax payers money either directly or through grants are far less inclusive than Scouting? thats either direct or implied discrimination through the targeting of certain minority ( or other ) groups.

What happens in the BSA if a youth member decides that he/she doesn't believe in (a) God? the only stuff i can find out about atheists in Scouting in the UK is this line: "Note: With reference to religious belief, the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to appointment to a Leadership position." All youth members in the UK have to make the Scout promise (oath), and from Scout age upwards the Scout law as well. the UK Scout promise, contains the line "duty to God" but from what i know ( dont quote this as fact ) if a youth member states that they dont believe in (a) God then that is no reason to remove that person from Scouting,as they are still discovering the world around them and defining their own beliefs. As for adults, then an out and out atheist applying for a leadership position can not take that position. however if you beleive in 'something' and accept that there is a higher power and/or a spirual side to humanity, then that appears to be OK. Whilst Atheists can not become full leaders, they can become associate members, although this means that they are little more than troop helpers and can not lead camps/expeditions or any thing else. As for religion in Scouting, My local group is not attached to any church, or any other external sponsoring body, we are our own entity with no chartering organisation, our only ties are to our local Scouting district, and through that County/regional/National Scouting, then onto world Scouting. As such region doesn't come into our programme, apart from a church service once a year ( St Georges day) and a religious Scouts own service during larger camps.

In the UK we have done a few bag packing sessions at a local supermarket ( US equivalent Wal-mart) The Scouts are at the end of the checkout and help pack customers bags in exchange for an optional tip, usually paced in a bucket at the end of the checkout with the who they are and what the fund-raising is for placed on the bucket such as 123rd Loughbourough Scout troop fund-raising for Morocco 2010, or just fund raising for the troop. The last time we did this we made over 1,000 in under four hours ( US $1,500)

Scouting is a world wide movement, a vast majority of Scouts in any country belong to the same Scouting body, in the case of the USA its the Boy Scouts of America, in the UK its The Scout Association of the UK, Canada Scouts Canada, Scouts Australia and so on. All these national Scouting body's are also members of the World organisation of the Scout Movement (WOSM), Despite the fact the we follow varying Scouting programmes, wear slightly different uniforms we are all members of the World organisation of Scouting. Scouting is based on some key fundamentals, no matter where you are in the world, or no matter what National Scouting organisation you belong to( with the odd historical exception) and these can be best summed up by the Constitution of the World organisation of the Scout movement, available here http://wsb1.scout.org/en/our_organisation/governance/constitution/constitution_of_w_o_s_m Article 2 of the constitution states that: "The Scout Movement is based on the following principles: Duty to God Adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting there from. Duty to others - Loyalty to ones country in harmony with the promotion of local, national and international peace, understanding and cooperation. - Participation in the development of society with recognition and respect for the dignity of humanity and for the integrity of the natural world. Duty to self Responsibility for the development of oneself." In the UK the Scout Association is not a religious movement, its a youth movement with a religious policy, for Adults atheists can not become full leaders, however they can become associate members if they so wish. Youth members who state they are atheists are still allowed to join as they are seen to be still looking, and developing. Back to the global situation, do a search on google for Baden Powell+religion WOSM+Religion and so on there's plenty of material there that will help you understand each National Scouting Association's policy. As for the odd exceptions to the rule see here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Promise

Statement from the UK Scout Association on this subject: taken directly from http://www.scouts.org.uk/noticeboard/168/statement-on-ugandan-private-members-bill ******************************************************* Statement on Ugandan Private Members Bill 23/02/2010 In mid-January, Headquarters became aware of a Private Members Bill being tabled in the Ugandan Parliament by David Bahati MP, who is also the National Chairman of The Ugandan Scout Association. We noted that the legislation being proposed appeared incompatible with our understanding of Scoutings values and principles. Our immediate response was to raise the matter directly with the World Organisation of the Scout Movement (WOSM) who have responsibility for coordinating Scouting on a global level. Following these representations, and progress thus far, we are now issuing a formal statement that details the latest position in the development of this issue Statement: Since the mid-1990s, The Scout Association has been clear and unequivocal in our equal opportunities policy and practice especially regarding sexual orientation, as befitting our role in contemporary society. We are recently aware that the Ugandan Parliament has received a Bill that calls for the death sentence for repeat practicing of homosexuality. This Bill is presented by a Ugandan MP (David Bahati) who is also currently the National Chairman of the Uganda Scout Association. In terms of our own policies and understandings, we find the Bill not only discriminatory and contrary to the sanctity of life, but also completely incompatible with our interpretation of the values of our worldwide Scouting Movement. We have already drawn our grave concerns on this to the attention of the Secretary General of the World Organisation of the Scout Movement (WOSM), and we are subsequently aware that the issues are now subject both to WOSMs direct engagement with the Chief Scout of Uganda (Mrs Maggie Kigozi) and to ongoing global consideration by members of the World Scout Committee. We hope that the bilateral and very positive educational and solidarity projects that have been fostered for many years between Scout Groups in the UK and Scout Groups in Uganda on such matters as health and community development will not be prejudiced or compromised by this situation; we await the formal and public response from the Scout Association of Uganda and from WOSM, whereupon we will review our position. Alan Craft, Chair of Trustees, Derek Twine, Chief Executive 23 February 2010 ******************************************

Quote from BadenP: "Let me say no one has a greater respect for female scouters than myself. It is just in my judgement and experience young boys 11-14 really need that male role model image. In spite of what BP may have said and an early female scoutmaster that for boys in this age group really need that male bonding time. Women are more than capable of being excellent scoutmasters, IMHO, a boy 11-14 is at that stage of development where a male role model, and male bonding is critical to that development, it has NOTHING to do with whether or not a female can be a competent leader. " I see where your coming from, although in my opinion its incredibly useful to have a mixed leadership team as female leaders can bring something to a Scout meeting that male leaders may find harder ( is that sexist??) and its also useful to have a mixed age range in the leadership team. As for atheists, Scouting and religion Baden -powell had this to say when asked where religion comes into Scouting " It does not come in at all. It is already there. It is a fundamental factor underlying Scouting and Guiding." As For My local level Direct in your face religion ( stuff like prayers at the Scout meeting) isnt a part of our local Beaver/Cub/ Scout meetings, and the only Church stuff we do is the yearly remembrance day parade, and a St Georges day service. As a part of my Scout leader training ( wood badge) one of the more tedious parts that had to be covered was Diversity, and as a part that that religion was covered with phrases like " The Scout Association is not a religious organisation, it is a just a youth organisation with a religious policy" so on it went, and then it got to the point where we talked about a Scouts own ( religious) service that would be inclusive to all beliefs and belief systems such as Buddhists, Muslims, hindus, Jews pagans/druids/wiccans and whatever else may be lurking out there - not easy. The overall consensus was to just carry on as before. The whole diversity thing was incredibly dull, and at times slightly ridiculous How can you make Scouting appeal to a minority community that doesn't exist except for the odd individual who may dress a little different during the Solstices, or the local politician who left her husband and family to live with another woman?

Quote from BadenP... "Female scoutmasters IMHO has always been a bad idea. Not that they are incapable of leading but putting all the PC crap aside it just goes contrary to what boy scouts is supposed to be about" Quote from le Voyageur "BP was a 19th century Brit of the Victorian era, and a member of the military gentry who's attitude toward women are not what they are today. " If the above were true then why on earth would Scouting and Robert Baden-Powell aprove of female Scout masters in 1913 at the 1st Herrington Scout group ( and probably a few others), see this website for the early history of 1st Herrington Scout group http://www.herrington-heritage.org.uk/scouting.html quote below form the website above. "ASM Joe Allen was in charge from 1912-1913. Miss Jane Helen McLaren was first official ScoutMaster. She was one of the first woman Scout leaders in the country. The McLarens came from Scotland and lived at the stackyard, New Herrington. As a farmer's daughter Miss McLaren was accepted as a leader (farmers were people of standing, miners were not). The first inspection under SM McLaren was in October 1913. As ladies had to be accompanied Miss McLaren had a companion, Miss Phillips, who went to camp etc. with her. " I find this quote "Female scoutmasters IMHO has always been a bad idea. Not that they are incapable of leading but putting all the PC crap aside it just goes contrary to what boy scouts is supposed to be about" incredibly offensive especially towards all the countless Female Scouters who have been involved in Scouting around the world since the very early days.

"I'd really like to see some data or hear from scouters outside the U.S. as to whether this is a hot button topic in their scouting arenas? I know from what little interaciton I've had with multinational gatherings (we get a good amount of scouts up here from Mexico), that the gay, atheist, and co-ed issues presented by current BSA policy are a thorny subject in the greater World Scout Organization. BSA is viewed by the WSO as somewhat of a black sheep in the international scouting family because of these policy stances." From my point of view, in the UK the homosexual issue is a non issue, as a part of the UK Scout associations equal opportunities policy we can not discriminate against people on the basis of their sexual orientation. however these people are very much a minority group, however i think theres an anti discrimination law in the UK that makes it illegal to discriminate against homosexulas in the UK. all adults involved in scouting in the UK have a criminal records check (CRB )clearance, as well as other checks. further reading UK policy organisation and rules (POR) chapter 2 key policys http://www.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/71 and the life issues section factsheets, scroll down, its a long way.. http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/ Atheists: youth members are may still be searching for relegion, but to hold an adult leadership role this is the policy "With reference to religious belief, the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to appointment to a Leadership position." so Agnostics get in under that, as for full blown atheists they are welcome to come along and help, and they may become 'associate' members but they can not hold a full leadership position. I was at a scout camp in Holland a few years ago, and the Scouts own service had a section for atheist Scouters - Holland is one of only a handful of countries where duty to God is an optional line in their promise/oath and therefore athesists are allowed to become full members. Starting another Scouting movement/association independatly. non aligned groups ( ie independant from the main UK Scout association and not a part of WOSM ) exist in the UK, however they are few and far between. most of them are as a result of dissagreements with the main UK Scouting association at various points during the history of Scouting. The earliest split from mainstream Scouting occurred in 1909 with the British Boy Scouts and the British Girl Scouts, still opperating today but very few and far between as the Brittish boy and Girl Scouts, and latterly the Baden-powel Scout association (BPSA) who i beleive have as group operating in the USA, theres a list of all the Scout Associations opperating in the UK, together with their badges here http://www.pioneeresu.org.uk/badges/ScoutAssocs/ScoutAssocs.htm

Theres lots of information on What Scouting in Haiti is doing to help here http://www.scout.org/en/blogs

On the subject of tennis ball cannons, this is a video of some UK Explorer Scouts ( 14-18 years old) firing some shoulder mounted tennis ball cannons. I was at one time thinking of running that as an activity, although after watching the video ive changed my mind somewhat. No one ( appears to ) get hurt or injured on the video below: http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=9442330

THeres some information on the world organisation of the Scout movement website here http://scout.org/solidarite-haiti'>http://scout.org/solidarite-haiti of which the text below is an extract: *************************************************************************** Solidarity with Haiti : Call for international donations Geneva, January 14th 2010 After the violent quake which struck Haiti, World Scouting is mobilising in order to help the 30'000 Scouts of Hati so that they can come to the aid of the stricken population. In the name of World Scouting, a message of solidarity and compassion, was sent to Haitian Scouts, even though it is very difficult to get into contact with them for the moment. A volunteer cooperation specialist from Scouts et Guides de France (Scouts and Guides of France) is on site in Port-aux-Princes, to support the coordination of the international Scout aid. A precise indication of what the needs are of the stricken families in terms of goods of first necessity, has been made possible thanks to the contacts, although limited, that have been made at this time. In fact, the 30 000 Haitian Scouts are essential relays between the emergency NGOs and the local population. Their action during the hurricane of 2008, has shown their capacity to act efficiently in operations of clearing, cleaning, decontamination and also by taking care of children that have been left to their own devices, as well as by building emergency camps. *************************************************************************************** above text taken from http://scout.org/solidarite-haiti

""rom OGE.... "So your District, composed of volunteers, "fired" another volunteer because they didnt think he was good enough to be a volunteer, or at least to fill the position he was in?" In simple terms, yes. Obviously it's a bit more complex than that, but I believe it's something that voluntary organizations have to be able to do. I've seen Scout Groups go to the wall because someone inappropriate was at the helm. Remembering that it's "for the kids", we have to take charge at times and get rid of the adults who aren't helping. " Weve got a simalar, if not the same set up in the UK. If an Adult is unsuitable for a particular role, then that adult can be removed from that role - all by volunteers either at a group or district level. if that Adult is reomved from His/Her role then another more suitable role could be found for them withgin Scouting, unless that person is removed for something more serious.

Another off topic weather related post: Were curretnly in the midst of a 'big freeze' in the UK, and in my location its -2C or 28F nad theres a weather warning out for severe snow and ice and we could see just over an inch of snow ( 2.5 cm )

But is UK, or any other national Scouting organisation better than the other? Im pretty sure, if not convinced that if Eamonn came to Scouting in the UK he would find plenty of issues and things that he didnt agree on, didnt like or both. 1) The cost of scouting in the UK is better (lower cost and more value) 2) Summer camps are better in the UK 3) Chartering /Scouting organization relationship are better in the UK 4) Commissioners structure is better in the UK 5) The UK scout oath is better. added 6) Advancement is better too Is the cost fo Scouting in the UK lower? i dont know exactly how much things cost with the BSA, but if a weeks long summer camp costs US$300.00, then that comes out roughly as GB180 which is roughly what a week long organised camp would cost in the UK. As for summer Camps, with UK Scouting being highy dependant on volunteers finding people who can take the time off work and lose some holiday ( vacation ) entitlement, to either lead the camps or to be on the staff at larger camps is a huge problem, hence why most organised camps are staffed by younger adults who are at university/college and have the time, and with older people who have retired/part retired being able to help more with the organisation. As for the comisioners structure, again with it at local level being all voluntary based ( with vrey few paid positions) things can sometimes be frustraitingly slow, its taken over 8 months for me to get a specific ( but very limited) adventurous activity permit since completing the course and passing the assesment, likewqise its not uncomon for some people to recieve a 5 years of service ( or whatever year ) a few years late. As for advancement, Promise vs Oath, its little more than a play on words. The BSA scout oath is this: On my honor I will do my best To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people at all times; To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight. the UK Scout Promise is this: On My honour, I promise that i will do my best, to do my duty to God, and to the Queen, To Help other people, and to keep the Scout law and the UK Scout law: 1. A Scout is to be trusted. 2. A Scout is loyal. 3. A Scout is friendly and considerate. 4. A Scout belongs to the worldwide family of Scouts. 5. A Scout has courage in all difficulties. 6. A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property. 7. A Scout has self-respect and respect for others. parts of the UK Scout law could easily be summed up with the words "To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight" especialy the bits about Trust, loyalty, self - respect, courage and so on. Is the grass greener on the other side? in my opinion no, its just a different shade of green. Scouting is a worldwide movement, that has grown and adapted its self to encompass all the different cultures and peoples of this world while still remaining true to its core values that inspired the moevement in the first place. Online places such as this allow us to see what may be done slightly differently elsewhere, and learning about these differences lets us all gain a greater appreciation of the true diversity of Scouting on a truly global scale. Some Countries may do things slightly differently to what we know as Scouting, but no matter where we are from, or what language we may speak we all do Scouting.

Most of the 'staff' you will see at international camps in the UK are recruited from the Scout Network section ( aged 18-25) As for leaders at the grass roots level running Beaver/Cub/Scout/Explorer Scout meetings theres a wide variety of ages. At my local Scout group we have a Beaver Leader in her late 60's, and two in there 40's, The Cub leaders are in their 30's, 40's and 60's, Scouts we have a mixture of 30 year olds and 50/60 somehtings, and the Explorer Scout leaders are 50 something and 20 something. The old upper age limit on Scout leaders in the UK was scrapped a few years ago as there is a shortage of Leaders, and an increase in youth membership, with quite a few groups having to operate a waiting list as they dont have enough leaders/space to cope.

The term 'Advancement' is something that i am un familiar with, and will also sound strange to many Scouters in the UK. In UK Scouting ( Scout association ) Scouts can work towards various badges and awards, with the top award being the Quens Scout award, although these awards and acheivements are not the be all and end all of Scouting in the UK, especialy since the old style progressive training scheme - Scout award , pathfinder award, etc etc for Scouts was replaced with the more modular Challenge awards sometime around 2003. There are a few other ( non aligned to WOSM, and not part of the UK Scout association) Scouting organisations in the UK, Such as the Baden-Powel Scouts, Brittish Boy and Girl Scouts, FSE Scouts, and a few others, although all of these are very much minority Scouting groups, and i havent met any one involved in any of them. As for Camping the two week summer camps are extremly rare, as Leaders dont have the time avialable off work etc, although its styill very much farmres field/campsite etc where the Scouts have to help with the setting up of tents and everythig else, and the leadres usualy sort out and/or run all the activitys ( depending on what activity authorisations are required under the adventurous activitys permit scheme) When ive met BSA Scouts and international events ( in the UK and at Kandersteg in Switzerland ) I was hellping out with an international camp in the UK, when we were asked to deal with an incident. The incident was that some people were drinking alcohol on the camp, when we checked there were a few leaders having a few beers, as they werent causing a disturbance there was no problem. the American Scouters were also surprised when we told them there were some bars on site ( beer tents ), likewise we were surpised when we found out that alcohol is completly banned for everyone on US BSA camps. These UK Scout Association factsheets may be of interest Advice for UK Scout leaders taking Scouts to the USA http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs260019.pdf Scouting Facts USA http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs260063.pdf Another thing that, to me looks odd, is the amount of influence that certain groups or bodies have on Scouting in the USA, such as the Latter day saints church. And to me the whole Chartering organisation system seems unusual, where as in the UK most Scout groups are there own entity, only answerable to District/county/regional/national UK Scouting.

looks like a nice coin design, although it seems a pity the US ones are not going to go into mainstream circulation. In the UK in 2007, to mark 100 years since the 1907 Brownsea island camp, a special 50p ( 0.50) coin was minted, as per usual some were just for collectors in various packs, although some were minted for general circulation, and its only recently that ive statrted seeing them in general circulation. coin has on its back, the Scout arrowhead over the world ( globe) with "fifty pence" at the top, "Be prepared" at the base and the years 1907 and 2007 at the side. If your in the UK keep a look out for them in your change. see the link below for images http://images.google.co.uk/images?q=scout%2050p&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi

Hope you all have a good Christmas. Scouting in my local area has mostly stopped for the christmas/new years period, although weve got a District Scout new years day family walk coming up ( it finishes in a pub ) Looking ahead to 2010 weve got the usual mix of camps etc coming up,including an international camp ( in the UK) peak 2010. Ive just got back from the pub, and its been surprising how many former Scouts ive bumped into,as well as parents, and current Scouts out and about in the local pubs.

Its been two years now since we had the first few girls join the Cubs, in the UK Cubs are aged 8-10 or upto 10 1/2 The first few Girls are now Scout age, and weve just had the first ever girl in the Scout troop taking part in activities etc. its now 2009, ( almost 2010) nearly three years since UK Scouting went compulsory co-ed at all levels, some groups also have more girls than boys, some groups have about the normal amount ( if you can call it that) so why has it taken us three years ( or more) ? First of all were not activly recruiting any one specific gender, why should we discriminate in order to tick a box on some form so it looks good in the figures? in my opinion theres no such thing as positive discrimination, its all discrimination no matter what. Secondly numbers, those who regularly come to the SCout troop meetings and by Scout troop i mean those attending the weekly Scout meetings at our local Scout HQ ( which is also shared with the local Girl Guides ) In 2007 we had about 12 Scouts, which isnt that many, now we have ( just ) over 30, and a regular weekly attendance usualy between 26 and 32, why should we recruit just girls? its already awkward enough trying to cope with the increased numbers, why make it harder? In the past few years I have also been involved in some co-ed Scouting events at all age ranges, camps, competitions and other such Scout stuff, and even a couple of camps where we have had to have mixed sex sleeping arangements ie Girls and Boys in the same tent, more on that later ( by the way it worked well and there were no problems\ issues)

If your interested in the history side of Scouting, the BBC made a documentary about a year ago, as a part of BBC4s Rdwardian season, called Ian Hislops Scouting for boys, with interviews and input from the current Lord Baden-powell ( B-Ps grandson ) amongst others, as well as the origins of the patrol system, seige of mafeking, Brownsea island, etc etc, its in six parts on youtube, part one below:

"So did UK Scouting increase or decrease due to dropping of the ban? " I honestly dont think lifting the ban made any difference what so ever. "I guess we could ask our brethern across the Atlantic how they handle camping with gays. Fellas, do your campouts turn into Roman orgies?" Gays are very much in the minority in the UK, and if there was any inapropiate behaviour on any camp that i was running/organising or helping to run it would be dealt with accordingly, especialy if it was unwanted harrasment of a sexual nature. "More to the point - how does UK Scouting handle camping and tenting? " I can only answer this practicaly with regards to mixed boys and girls on camps, as i have no expeirience in dealling with gays. the guidelines say that we ( in the UK) should provide separate sleeping accomodation for boys and girls, but ther may be times when that is not practical or for when issues of safety and security take over.

Ive never heard of the term Jap as being offensive in any way. there are many companies opperating in the UK that deal with Japanese car parts and importcars ( as the Japanese drive on the left, the same side of the road as the UK) often using the word Jap prominently in their company name ie Japarts Jap World and so on.

"So Pint, did the dropping of the gay ban help or hurt scouting in England?" from my point of view, it made no difference what so ever, if anything it just removed something for the media and various presure groups to attack Scouting with. From what ive read about the 'issues' and the BSA most issues seem to centre round the three G's Gays,Girls and God. The first two have been dealt with, and the God issue ( in my opinion) is a bit of a fudge, dealt with by this line from the UK Scout associations equal opportunities policy "Note: With reference to religious belief, the avowed absence of religious belief is a bar to appointment to a Leadership position" although the God issue is a different subject altogether. If your interested the Rules and regulations for UK Scout Association (Known as Policy Organisation and Rules ) are available in the link below: http://www.scouts.org.uk/supportresources/71

When Scouting in the UK first started going co-ed at all levels, it was up to each individual SCout group to decide weather or not to allow girls to join, some groups said yes, and openly recruited girls to join in with the boys. Some groups said no, and remained a boys only single sex Scout group ( upto 2007 when UK Scout HQ said everyone must acept girls) some groups sat on the fence and said nothing, and did nothing to openly recruit girls. Maybe a solution for the BSA would be to let each group, or chartering organisation decide.