Peregrinator

"you are under the impression that I *can't* name such an atheist" Actually, I wrote "unwilling or unable" ... I don't know which one it is. Hence it is not I, but you who is jumping to unwarranted conclusions. Maybe you're more interested in throwing around terms like "bigot" than actually showing how people are bigoted.

You can say that again!

"What? When did I say I would? Oh, never." So you are claiming that it is bigoted to say that atheists, by definition, cannot be respectful of others' religious beliefs, but you are unwilling or unable to name a single atheist who actually is respectful of others' religious beliefs?

In order to counter your "definitions," one would only need to produce an example of a generous Jew or a priest who is not a child rapist. Yet you can't produce a single example of an atheist who is respectful of religious beliefs? Mind you, I'm not asking you to be that example.

Merlyn, there is a distinction between saying that someone "cannot, by definition" on the one hand, and "is incapable of" on the other. I suspect jrush would say that if an atheist were truly respectful of other's religious beliefs, he would cease to be an atheist. You may, of course, disagree with his definition of "atheist" but I don't think it's an unreasonable one ... and rather than pointing out how he is wrong, by showing how an atheist CAN respect the beliefs of others while remaining an atheist, you accuse him of bigotry (which at this point has become a bromide in this forum, at least when it comes from you).

Good thing he didn't say that.

Would you agree that one might regard two behaviors as sinful, but that one is more so than the other?

It is not "bigotry" to not respect someone's beliefs. Why would one respect something he believes is not true? I certainly would not expect an atheist (or Jew or Muslim) to respect my religious beliefs.

What does the BSA's apparent willingness to change that policy teach the boys in their charge?

I agree with Sentinel that the argument is persuasive. Bringing marijuana to camp is very risky, and not just because of the other scouts there. On the subject of partaking in general, however, it would be worthwhile to see if the scout in question has a legitimate reason to do so and isn't doing it simply for recreational purposes. For example, does he have cancer? Did his oncologist recommend he smoke marijuana to improve his appetite while undergoing chemotherapy? I realize that sounds a bit far-fetched but I don't think it's completely out of the question. Still, even if that is the case, he ought to have been more discreet.

Baden-Powell wrote that a scout who told a lie would cease to be a scout. Do any of you throw boys out of your troops for lying just once?

Didn't the BSA contend in Dale that exclusion of homosexuals was part of its core mission? If the BSA is no longer stating that, then the Dale precedent may no longer stand.

My guess is that they are concerned about camporees and the like.

BTW, sthumper, there is some historical data that led some to believe that Powell was a repressed homosexual. He was probably a repressed atheist too.

Go for a hike in the Wissahickon Valley section of Fairmount Park. Hard to believe it's right in the middle of a city. Free. Art Museum - Free on Sundays before 11:00 am. I don't care for the modern stuff but they have a great mediaeval collection including armor, weapons, etc. Take a walk down the Parkway or a walk up the Schuylkill to Boathouse Row afterward. U.S. Mint - No cameras allowed, could be difficult with a group of scouts.

I guess American babies aren't good enough for Americans....maybe some church can pick up the slack. Most American babies are never put up for adoption -- those who aren't wanted are aborted.

I've never quite 'gotten' the symbolism of these various things in the verses. I don't think there is any symbolism ... I think it's just a fun song (these things do exist after all).

I would not go through O'Hare if it can be avoided at all. It is a huge airport and your connecting flight could be on the other side of the airport from your inbound flight. I think my wife and I had to change planes in Charlotte once ... I remember it being a small airport and very clean. Not bad for a connecting flight (logistically at least) - hard for Scouts to get lost. FWIW, Thousand Islands is also a nice border crossing. But much further from Toronto.

Peregrinator, we all know that the reason the BSA still has this policy is that certain large CO's and their allies in positions of leadership, in sufficient numbers to control the votes, have decided that the BSA will have this policy. I'm not a BSA insider so no, I don't know that. I don't see how there is any way to know that for certain (unless the BSA's leadership has actually said as much). But let's suppose it's true. In what way is it unreasonable for the BSA to continue doing what its affiliated organizations want it to do?

It is worth noting that the single best known Mormon nationally, Mitt Romney, was asked about the gay issue in regards to boy scouts during the recent election campaign. He answered that he thought the BSA ought to change its policy. Mitt Romney also formerly held a position on abortion that was wildly at variance with what the LDS actually teaches.

But at the same time, it is NOT reasonable for them to tell people who DON'T believe its a sin that they must still exclude gay leaders. It is totally reasonable for the BSA to decide on which terms it will allow organizations to affiliate with it.

Peregrinator, are Buddhist scouts liars? That's a good question. My understanding is that some Buddhists believe in God, while others don't. So I guess it would depend on whether one believes in God or not.

I believe in pointing out bigoted behavior, such as stereotyping entire groups of people, as bigotry. Bigotry is characterized by hatred and intolerance, and stereotyping doesn't necessarily measure up to that standard. Furthermore, you use the word often enough that it's become a bromide.

I think any of Heinlein's juvenile fiction would do, if you're buying for someone who likes science fiction.

It is clear that atheist members are with us both as youth, openly, and as adults saying the promise with a mental cross of the fingers. All this does is officially acknowledge that. Wouldn't an atheist making a promise of duty to God be lying? What did Baden-Powell think about scouts who lied?* Why should they be rewarded for their dishonesty by having their very own promise? *"If a scout were to break his honour by telling a lie, or by not carrying out an order exactly when trusted on his honour to do so, he would cease to be a scout, and must hand over his scout badge, and never be allowed to wear it again--he loses his life."