perdidochas

OGE, My thoughts exactly. John-in-KC, Exactly. EDGE, (as a training paradigm), is nothing but generally accepted instructional practices rebadged.

I've never understood urinating on a campfire to put it out, especially if the person is planning to sleep nearby. I heard in a YPT training a horror story about a former scouter who would pee on a fire and encourage all the cub scouts to do it as well (he was removed for that practice, BTW).

As a volunteer Scouter, I'm often amazed (and irritated) at the way I'm treated by the prof Scouters. I find most of them to be very rude and very short with volunteers. I hope that they aren't that way with "civilian" (meaning non-volunteer) parents or donors.

Kudu, The EDGE way of training how to put up a tent would require learning with their hands and eyes, just like the conventional method. First, explain the basics of putting up a tent. (Explain) Second, show how to do it. (i.e. the scouts learning with their eyes) (Demonstrate) Third, have the scouts put up tents (i.e. the scouts learning with their hands). (Guide) Fourth, have several campouts where the scouts put up tents. (Enable) Please explain how that is not using their hands and eyes to learn how to set up a tent? I understand your frustration with the watering down of the Patrol method, but using the EDGE method for teaching skills is not a bad thing. Is it the best thing? I don't know. Is it the worst? Probably not.

Of course her post was a "BSA is bad, bye" post. What else could it have been. I mean she writes that she sees and hears that scouting is a men's club, and a testosterone club. If that's not "BSA is bad" I don't know what it is. The thing is, we don't know the whole story. If it's pretty much what she wrote, she's totally in the right. The thing is, it doesn't meet the smell test. There are important details missing. Older boys rarely just beat younger boys for no apparent reason. I would like to hear more about the circumstances around the beating. That doesn't mean that I think the beating was acceptable, it just means that both boys may be guilty of something. It also may have started out innocently, and ended up with the older boy hitting the younger one. Having been a boy, I know that sometimes what starts off as play ends up as a fight (a beating). Happened between me and my brothers all the time.

I agree about knots. Need to know the uses of the knot. I would put that as part of the Explanation in EDGE. The only reason to teach knots is to use them while outdoors. That should be part of the Explanation.

In terms of the whole single mother thing, at our Crossover on Monday night, we had a father of a crossed over Scout who was really up in arms about the fact that mothers were invited to camp, if they wished. Our SM set him straight about it before our CC (a divorced mother of one of our Eagle Scouts turned ASM) tore him up. Got a few of the other mothers of crossovers (including my wife and two of her better friends) stirred up. Ironically, my wife and friends have no intention of camping with the Troop--they just didn't like this male chauvinist spouting off. Singlemom, find another troop. You just wound up with a bad one. Each troop is different, and unfortunately, since troops are led by humans, they make mistakes and aren't always good.

Last part of handout: "Summary Did you notice how easy it might be to combine Explaining and Demonstrating at the same time? Or Demonstrating and Guiding? While we show EDGE as separate steps, one step easily flows to the next. In fact, they are connected, and you can combine steps to accomplish the learning objectives and goals. You may need to go back a step if they dont get it." EDGE isn't just linear. It does involve going back and forth if needed. As I've said before, it's not a perfect model, but it's not bad, and it's easy to remember. It's not as rigid as critics are making it out to be.

Beavah wrote: "1) Space learning over time. Arrange to review key elements of content after a delay of several weeks to several months after initial presentation. EDGE: Fail. Nuthin' like that in EDGE, though it's interestin' that I've seen several scouters here write about how they introduce this kind of delay when teaching or checking for advancement." I'd see that as part of Enable. Enable is using the skill in real life situations. The only way to do that is to do it after a period of time. EDGE accounts. "2) Interleave examples with problem solving exercises. EDGE: Fail. EDGE proposes that yeh proceed linearly through the steps. First Explain, then Demonstrate, then Guide... The research says it works best if yeh interleave 'em, goin' back and forth." The above would be confusing when teaching a square knot. "3) Combine graphics & demonstrations with verbal descriptions. EDGE: Fail. Again, research suggests that da best practice is to demonstrate and explain together, startin' with the demonstration which draws interest." Well, the example of EDGE in the Trainer's EDGE PDF does include that. The Explain is not to explain all the steps in detailed order. The Explain is basically tell what you are learning. If I were teaching the tautline hitch using EDGE, I'd start with the problem of guylines losing tension. That would be my Explain. My Demonstration would be showing how to do the knot and how the knot works to do the above, depending on my circumstance, I might have a handout of how the hitch is tied/use the Handbood. My Guide would be to have the boys tie the hitch, and work with them doing it. My Enable would be to have the boys set up a dining fly using the tautline hitch at the next campout. Might also enable by having a competition on doing the hitch. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/26-242.pdf "4) Connect and integrate abstract ideas with concrete representations. EDGE: huh? This seems to be edu-speak for introduce the deeper concepts alongside the less abstract, concrete stuff. So introduce the deeper concept of physiological responses to injury when doin' more concrete first aid for shock. Nuthin' like that in EDGE." Explanation and demonstration is the above. "5) Use evaluation to promote learning. a) Start with pre-questions to introduce a new topic b) Use quizzes to re-expose and reinforce key content. EDGE: Fail. EDGE has nuthin' about how to use quizzes or evaluation, let alone suggesting you start by raising questions instead of explanations. BSA Advancement: Fail. Retesting is shown by the research to improve understanding and effective learning." Enable is the above. "6) Help students allocate study efficiently by assisting with evaluation and helping them learn how to judge how well they've learned. EDGE: Fail. Nothing in EDGE about helpin' students to reflect on what they know or how well they know it, and help 'em then focus on the things that need more work." Again, part of Enable. "7) Ask deep explanatory "hard" questions. Use instructional prompts that encourage students to pose and answer "deep-level" questions on the material. EDGE: Fail. Nothing in EDGE about this. BSA Advancement: Fail. The requirements are all simple-task oriented, and fail to push scouts toward deep understanding of da material. " Not needed in motor skills, which is where EDGE shines (and where I see it appropriate for). What deep hard questions can you ask about tying a square knot? Also, where is the scholarly work to support the recommendations above? I would imagine it's about as vague as the work that supports EDGE. The problem is that you have set up your mind to what EDGE is, and you set up a strawman in your answers above. Below is a copy of the handout on the EDGE model from the above PDF, p. 50 The EDGE Model Stages and Training Methods Explain √ Tell them (talk, audiotape). √ Give written instruction or explanation (paper, book, Web page). Demonstrate √ Show (include role plays, videos, computer animations). √ Do it yourself as they watch. √ Use a diagram. √ Tell a story (can be fictional or real‐life examples). Guide √ Watch them do it and give verbal hints and tips. √ Do it together (at the same time). √ Let them try it; then talk about it. √ Let them ask questions as they try it. Enable √ Give a memory aid. √ Give them a task that requires this learning. √ Ask them to teach someone the new learning. √ Give them the resources to do it again without you. √ Help them use the learning again in a new setting or situation.

Not all Scout troops are the same. I'm sorry about what happened to your son. Also, National Boy Scout rules say that parents (not just fathers) are welcome to all scouting events, including camping. We have scouts from single parent homes, from divorced homes (split custody), and intact families. All are welcome. We have boys that live in waterfront mansions, and in ramshackle houses, and everywhere in between. You couldn't tell the difference between them in the Troop, as that is the way Scouts are supposed to be. I'm not sure where you get the idea that most of Scouting is a men's club. Our troop is a boys club with men helping out. The boys are running things, and the men (and a few women) are just watching. It's their club, not ours.

I just don't see the whole objection to it. It's fundamentally sound. When you teach something to somebody, you tell them how to do it, you show them how to do it, you help them practice doing it, and you give them a chance to do it. It's what I learned in education classes as the way to teach things. All EDGE is is a repackaging of it. It's nothing groundbreaking. It's not radical. It just has a name that the marketers like, but fundamentally, it's just good teaching practice. I don't need research to show that it's good or not. The most radical thing about this is we are making teaching skills a requirement for Scouts. I don't see what's wrong with that. In terms of your critical thinking scouts, the "point" is that the four steps in EDGE are time-honored teaching practices. The EDGE initials are just a way to help remember them. Simple as that. Having easy to remember steps is a good thing for novices. With expertise, you can go off in different directions. Besides references, can anybody describe a teaching model that is radically different from EDGE, other than constructivist theoretical stuff like in the article I referenced?

References are a fairly modern thing. They require written language. We've been teaching as a species long before we had writing. We teach our own kids skills (using similar methods to EDGE) long before they can use a reference. (I've seen no evidence that cave paintings were instructional) EDGE, from what I can see, is used primarily for teaching motor skills and procedural skills. I don't see it practical for everything. I don't see any significant difference between EDICT and EDGE, except the acronyms used. As I said, I would think DEDGE would be slightly better than EDGE, but that's just personal preference. In terms of things like knot tying, and canoeing skills, etc., I don't see a reference as being necessary if they are mastered. If anything, I think overuse of references are detrimental to things like knot tying. Knot tying should be done to a point where muscle memory is more important than cognitive memory. Besides a couple of years as an unambitious Tenderfoot in the early 1980s, I've been out of the Boy Scout arena until last year. Was there a different model to teaching skills than EDGE? Also, there is nothing in EDGE that implies references aren't to be used. The EDGE method doesn't require references, but I can easily see how they could be incorporated in the Explain or Demonstrate phase. The mnemonic just helps to keep the instructor focused on the four stages. Are there other ways to do the basic same things? Yes. This just is a convenient way for the kids to learn how to teach. It's arbitrary, but it is a good starting point. If somebody can learn a motor or procedural skill just by reading about it, great, but not all of us can. I'm horrible about learning about knots that way. I basically need to be taught how to tie a particulary knot several times before I have it down. The diagrams don't do much for me, unless I can relate a diagramed knot to another knot I already know (how I learned the tautline hitch). I think there's much ado about nothing in this whole "anti-EDGE" sentiment. EDGE is just a mnemonic that incorporates common practices to use while teaching a motor/procedural skill. It's not the best thing since sliced bread, but it is a good fundamental teaching technique.

Jet (and I think Beavah), I think we are commenting on different things. I don't know enough about the leadership side of the EDGE equation. I do know about the educational side of the equation. Educationally, as a method to teach a procedural skill (i.e. knot tying, etc.), it's fine--it's really no different than people have been teaching other people from the beginning of humankind (except of course for the catchy mnemonic). The other stuff I have no idea about.

You know experts who object to Explain, Demonstrate, Guide and Explain or who thing it is useless? What is their preferred model? The only way studies would work on this subject would be to use two different methods to teach a skill. You can't absolutely say "EDGE" method doesn't work. You have to compare it to some other method. In addition, you would have to define what best is. Do you want to find the method of instruction that is fastest to accomplish? Or do you want the method with best long term knowledge? In going through the literature (that I can find w/o access to academic journals), I found a similar model used in Australia for canoeing instruction called EDICT. Explanation, Demonstration, Imitation, Coaching/Correction, and Trials. http://www.latrobe.edu.au/education/assets/downloads/thomas_g_Thomas_v11n2_2007.pdf For novice instructors (like teenagers), the EDGE model is about as good as any other model. Are there better models? probably. Are there worse models? probably. EDGE is easy to remember, and the idea of Explain, Demonstrate, Guide and Enable are pretty basic. I would probably use DEDGE given a choice (with a demo prior to explanation, followed by another demo), but EDGE will work. Again, I'm not talking about the leadership model, only the educational model that the Scouts would use--"Using the EDGE method teach another person how to tie the square knot."

EDGE is made-up. Poppycock, it's not. It's a good generic model for skills instruction, and is based on other models for skills instruction, with a catchy mnemonic to it. I don't see why there is any objection to it. (I'm specifically talking the EDGE method to teach skills, as is the requirement for different Scout ranks, not the entire system Trainer's EDGE).

I'm in the field of Instructional Design (ABD (all but dissertation (meaning I've done all the requirements for a Ph.D. in the area, with the exception of the dissertation))). I'd never heard of EDGE until I got involved in Scouting. That said, generically speaking, it's a pretty good model for skills instruction, using a mnemonic to remember the steps. It's not much different from what good teachers do daily.

Don't understand the nostalgia for the collarless shirts and the knee socks. I hated both when I was a Scout--I always wished that my Troop had been a collared shirt one. Glad that both of those things are gone, personally.

There is no way to do things without causing complaints--it is impossible to make everyone happy. I think it's just the way the cookie crumbles.

Did the crew that capsized have any adverse reactions, other than simply being cold for a while? Were they prepared? If they were prepared, what's the big deal? Boys and canoes=occasional capsizing. It's half the fun.

"Redneck" maligns working class, primarily Scotch-Irish descent, Southern white people.

Re: A scout is helpful. In the case of a habitual shirker, it is not helpful to the habitual shirker to do the job he is shirking. It is more helpful to figure out how to resolve it. Now, if the slow scout is just having a bad day, of course his fellow scouts should help him get things done. We all have those days.

Seattle, I'm kind of disturbed that you would even think of the weapon aspect of a knife in terms of Scouts. If you can't trust a Scout with a knife and are afraid they will fly into a murderous rage, then you either need to prevent them from getting a Totin' chip, or think about another hobby other than scouting. Our council (Gulf Coast Council) has a ban on sheath knives. The justification being that if a Scout falls with a sheath knife on his hip, the risk of being hurt if they fall onto their sheathed knife outweighs the utility of the knife. I think it's irrational, but I follow the rule anyway. At one time I used to keep a fairly large sheath knife in my daypack, but I've stopped that.

Sounds like the problem is the mothers are having conversations, not that they are speaking in foreign languages.

The key is keeping them occupied. First, don't just do crafts and "bookwork" or lectures. Intersperse things. Second, make sure the boys play some kind of active game during the meeting. Boys need to move!!!!

You are correct. They can't start on Wolf until after June 1. Work on electives and Belt Loops/pins, and on just having fun--play games, learn outdoor skills (square knot), etc.