BDPT00

The bar is for the unit. If you're in the unit, you're authorized to wear it. If you leave the unit, the bar comes off. BDPT00

Right you are! Thanks.

"When the methods are enforced at the boy level, each boy will need difference guidence depending on their needs at the time." Correct me if I'm wrong (now there's something I didn't need to say!), but I don't believe the Scouts are taught or need to know the methods. That's for us. So "enforcing the methods at the boy level" per se doesn't make a great deal of sense to me. BDPT00

It'd be hard to say they're promoted anywhere (except by those who believe strongly in them). They're taught (mentioned) in training and in adult leader manuals, but they're not pushed very hard. Many Scouters have never heard of them, and most would have a hard time making a list. They're all important, and a good leader knows that. They should be used as a measuring tool by Scoutmasters and Commissioners. People may argue about which is most or least important. That depends upon circumstance, and cirumstances change frequently. If any method is ignored, the program is weaker than it should be. An advancement mill doesn't care (and usually doesn't even know about) the seven other methods. That's a weak unit, but many will flock to it because it sounds like success. They do good stuff, and kids learn, but the main focus is getting their ticket punched... not character development and citizenship. BDPT00

Just for clarification (based on my council). JLT was a troop prgram (replaced now by TLT). JLTC was the council program (replaced now by NYLT). Many councils chose to name their course with some sort of local flavor or tradition. Brown Sea sounds identical to JLTC, and I would submit they are one and the same. It originated around 1970 (I'm guessing '67 in my council), and had evolved over the years to stay in line with Wood Badge. The skills mentioned were the same. White Stag takes credit for it, and has chosen not to change. That's up to them. Regarding beads for NYLT, one of the requirements is dropping the local name (must be called "NYLT" only). I don't happen to like that change, and our council is hesitant to so. BDPT00

A merit badge mill (or an Eagle mill) is a unit that focuses on only advancement. The other methods don't matter. Kids "graduate" when they get their Eagle, and the kids all get the same 21 merit badges, because the troop's meetings are all geared toward advancement. It's an adult run, adult planned, and adult driven program. The Eagles and their parents disappear before age 16; resume item completed, and Scoutmaster's belt appropriately notched. BDPT00

Red. The problem as I see it with youth (and adults) wearing the trained patch without having taken the specific training is because once they've earned it, they think it's permanent. Not true. Those who've taken NYLT and/or Wood Badge have taken generic leadership training, and it has nothing to do with a specific position. Those who took JLT, JLTC, or whatever the Brown Sea thing was were misinformed if told they were trained for every position. BDPT00

Depends on where you are and what you'll be doing. Are you in snow? Are they camping outside? How old? How many?

Exactly. Standing is a sign of respect. To me, not standing is a bold statement of disrespect. Do they have the right to do that? Certainly. Do I have to like it? No. Do I have to respect it? No. Do I have to tolerate it? I guess I do, but that sure doesn't mean I have to like it. As much as they have a right to sit, I have a right to express my feelings. BDPT00

I don't think the 3Gs have anything to do with it. When the 8 year old and his parents consider joining, they don't wonder if it's for girls or not. Who cares what athiests think? As for the gay issue, it's very far from any consideration for a young lad and his family. The issue is our image. If the public thinks we're too wholesome, is that something we'd really want to change? What needs to be promoted (and it's what we try to do) is that Scouting is fun and adventure. It's opportunity. And if the parents think just the least little bit about it, we're values based. I don't think we need to change anything. It's simply finding the silver bullet that gets people in the door. Then it's up to us to self-promote and to deliver the program that keeps them in. BDPT00

Whether said Canadian stands or not (and it's sad that he chooses to make an issue of it, especially in Scouts), I will stand for the Canadian anthem. I hope he doesn't mind. BDPT00

WELL! I thank you. I've been waiting for you to chime in on the survey thing. I haven't yet looked there tonight. And yes, I'm pretty passionate about our values. I'll never be a senator or even a mayor. I won't make big changes in the world, but I can do my piece, one Scout at a time. Maybe they'll make the big changes. Based on their character and talent, I hope so. BDPT00

OGE: "It's almost as if you guys have actual expectations concerning a volunteers behavior and that is just not right." I sure have expectations concerning a volunteers behavior. Lots of them. Do we want alcohol on their breath? Do we condone foul language and inapproprite subject matter? Ethnic comments? Blond jokes? Put-downs? I think we should have plenty of expectations. In this case, it sounds like some expect uniforms. I get that, but it is right to consider that other districts may be different than your own, however, if the Scout is asking the question, I think it's a good one. I would wear a uniform. I can't control everyone else, but if I were in charge of the BOR, I would share an expectation for dress. BDPT00

I think part of the dilemma is the idea of producing cookie-cutter Scouts. Ask an eleven year old what Helpful means. Ask another one, and you'll get a different answer. Then ask them both six years later, and see what happens. Is any answer wrong? In a cookie-cutter world, yes. In the real world (our Scouting world is better than real life), no. If we ask what day JFK was shot, there's one answer. Any other answer is wrong, even if close. That's black and white. Any good Scout leader understands gray, and that's where we live and learn. Does the Oath and Law stand for something? Of course it does. Do they learn anything similar in school? No. So where do non-Scout kids learn ethics and values? TV, video games, peers, and parents who think it's society's job. Our society is getting worse. Scouting, however, is standing firm on its values. They're my values too. Yours? Ours? Our kids? BDPT00

Another thread is toying with a survey to "fix" Scouting. I think that by asking outsiders what they'd do to change the program that it would destroy Scouting. They'd probably suggest a new set of values. Mr Boyce said handling values are much more challenging. i would submit that they're all the more important. Our society ... youth mainly ... has no moral compass. Scouting offers what they need. Somebody has to draw a line in the sand. Our society keeps moving the line. Scouting doesn't. We catch heat for it, but I'm proud of our standards and our values. If you don't stand for something, you eventually don't stand for anything. Our kids are being taught (including by some here) that you can stay seated for the pledge if you feel like it. Don't bother saluting. Don't say "God" in the oath. Don't pay any attention to an insignia guide. That's for other people. Don't take your hat off when you're indoors. Don't bother with requirements if they're a little too hard or inconvenient. I don't know. It gets annoying to me when values are tossed aside and we become more like society in general. It should be the other way around. We need to carry the guidon. If we're not willing to lead, then we'll have to follow somebody else. We have a compass, and we know where we're going, so let's go! Am I an idealist? Darn right. BDPT00

I'm with HICO. The Handbook is still pretty clear. The weakness is in the leadership and interpretation. We're the ones who set the standards. In kids' sports, it's not the youth who came up with the everybody wins concept. It's us! If we say that a Scout's effort is good enough, then the book gets signed. Did he do his best? Maybe at that very moment. Maybe. Can he do better? Did he prepare well enough? When a kid finds out that he can get by with a mediocre effort, that's what he'll give. I think that's why we have so many arguments regarding Eagles. It's all so-so until it suddenly becomes important. Then the standards change. Who changed the standards? We did. BDPT00

I think the point to #3 is that just because one is an Eagle Scout, that doesn't make him a lifeguard (or anything else). BDPT00

The decision makers are at the national level (regarding changes in policy and guidelines). Many decisions are local, but the ones we usually argue about here are national. The national committees are made up of volunteers, but most often those volunteers are quite a distance from working directly with Scouts and units. The dirt Scouter gets offended when a policy affecting him is made by some big dog in Dallas who may not even own a uniform. There's lot of posturing and politics. We at the unit level don't know the reasons for many decisions, and we get frustrated. You'll get plenty of replies to your question. BDPT00

Just an aside ... I'm studying the Troop Leadership Training manual. In the back are position-specific cards for youth leaders in the troop. Every single one says, as part of the job description: "Wear the Scout uniform correctly." To me, that's black and white. We have a guide that explains what "correctly" is. Any variation from that guide, according to the UP or anyone else who cares or is paying attention, is incorrect. The space between correct and incorrect is the gray area we discuss here. It's large and varied, but the direction given in the TLT manual is pretty clear to me. I choose to "do my best" to follow it. BDPT00

I agree with John. Our Aims are Citizenship and Character, not starting fires and shooting arrows. We need to remember the big picture. Safety first? Sure! Was a danger stated? No. We're a service organization (GS too?). Sounds like a potential golden opportunity for the Scouts, and a win-win for the church. BDPT00

And it also appears that you didn't read who/what he was replying to. He was answering HiLo's question regarding the charges. BDPT00

The church has several missions, and aiding homeless men seems to be one of them (as is providing space for Girl Scouts). What message are you sending these men and this church and your community when you pick up your ball and go home? BDPT00

"OA youth are NOT ELIGIBLE and CAN NOT be Indian Lore MBC's per BSA criteria no matter how you want to twist it." **This doesn't sound like semantics to me. (and, by the way, 14 & 15 year olds are not staffers) That being said, I agree with crew21. We many times lose sight of the original poster's intent. The OA just recently sent out a letter inviting youth members to apply for positions on the staff. Whoever served as a youth staffer in 2005 is no longer eligible to serve in that same role again. They need a whole new batch of youth, and it can't hurt to apply and see where it goes. Answers here make it sound very exclusive. Probably is, but if the youth you're considering have knowledge and talent, go for it. BDPT00

OK, so now we're down to that 1% that remains. Any questions? Nobody stated (except BadenP by negative inference) that all Arrowmen are qualified to counsel Indian Lore merit badge. That's the same as assuming that all Arrowmen are dancers. They're not. Some are. The OA put on dancing demonstations. The statement was that the OA ran the merit badge. Did they not? Were they not qualified? Somewhere in that statement, did somebody say that a non-qualified 16 year old did anything at all regarding a merit badge? Did anybody say anything about a true representation of the Indian culture? I must not have read the same thing you did. I'm sure you'll find an interesting and insulting way to justify your 99%. Good luck. BDPT00

BadenP, I'm glad I can bring a smile to your face. ACCO40 wasn't asking for a voice of reason, of understanding, or a logical discussion. He was asking if it was ok with the Insignia Guide to wear a rank patch on the right pocket. No. By the way, was yours a voice of logical discussion? BDPT00