PaulSafety

a friend told me about this program pilot. Looks like the adventure experience that older scouts would really connect with......amazing video -- why haven't we heard more about this?

1911 BSA handbook; "And then the final and chief test of the scout is the doing of a good turn to somebody every day, quietly and without boasting. This is the proof of the scout. It is practical religion, and a boy honors God best when he helps others most. A boy may wear all the scout uniforms made, all the scout badges ever manufactured, know all the woodcraft, campcraft, scoutcraft and other activities of boy scouts, and yet never be a real boy scout. To be a real boy scout means the doing of a good turn every day with the proper motive and if this be done, the boy has a right to be classed with the great scouts that have been of such service to their country. To accomplish this a scout should observe the scout law." (ideals trump skills) I think its reasonable to say that character and ideals have always been in the stew, not thrown in as the result of a 1960 memo or 1970 "improved scouting nightmare". We need not agree on this point and probably won't. I don't require constructive suggestions or ideas on character development that meet with my satisfaction. I merely asked members of the forum to contribute constructively. If you clearly feel that character development is a waste of program energy, then why not simply move on and let those of us who feel differently try to help boys as best we can? (...because you disagree with our approach and think we're damaging the youth...OK, we get your point....) Not every troop works the exact same way, nor should they -- this is the underlying benefit of diversity and tolerance -- enabling multiple approaches to flourish and create synergies that innovate when results suggest that the approach was beneficial and testing confirms that it can be replicated (it wasn't a fluke). Of course, we could also just troll around and boo-hoo anyone who tries to do their best to serve the youth in a way counter to our personal preferences, too. I'm just trying to live out the eagle oath "I promise to make my training and example, My rank and my influence, Count strongly for better Scouting" but that would be an ideal, not pushing a ball through physical space, right? Oh well.

Hey, I appreciate your feedback, but I think you're projecting a little bit when you describe what I envision as character development. I wouldn't look at penalizing a boy or crushing his spirit because he couldn't explain a concept. My follow up questions were not to belittle or attack, but to try to quietly draw out a little more that was probably lurking underneath, but in that instance, I didn't get the opportunity. The benefit of the conversation would be, I hoped, to help the youth realize that this "stuff" is important/relevant/helpful/valuable, too. (not more than knots and fires, but similarly helpful in it's own way). Ultimately,my criticism is of the failure to lead and educate for clear understanding, not to fail to receive a "preferred response". Please don't paint me as a stereotype from your imagination -- that's not really very fair, and I can see that you're a great scouter who cares about the program a whole lot. So how do we help youth discover and build character? That's all I asked about since the thread began with concerns about boys growing up to be men of both seemingly great and seemingly poor character -- should we assume that neither condition is a result of scouting experience, or should we think about how we can influence (in pratical terms) a stronger, more consistent outcome of men brought up through "the program" who exhibit great character in their adult lives?

The centerpiece of the "Personal Growth" Method when it was introduced, was the "Personal Growth Agreement Conference" with its own paperwork: the official "Personal Growth Agreement" contract. The Scout was required to list specific goals and then meet them before his next advancement. To accommodate the anticipated flood of "urban youth" who hate Scoutcraft, the goals need not have anything to do with Scouting. Thanks for the welcome! Thanks for the insight -- I was 5 in 1971 so I kinda missed the significance until now. Appreciate the head's up on the context. It's good to gain perspective -- that's personal growth, right?

Agree - its a step in the right direction, and i appreciate your input on an important topic affecting personal growth, adult association, advancement, and character development. I also recognize that this type of discussion is part of T-2-1 requirements and is typically handled as the last step of advancement, and done during the start of the scoutmaster conference. (i.e. Tenderfoot #11 -- Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life. Discuss four specific examples of how you have lived the points of the Scout Law in your daily life.) When do we (older scouts, adults, handbook, etc.) present the scout with the information needed to process, understand and master a requirement like Tenderfoot #11? I suspect that some troops could easily fall into a trap of simply expecting them to figure it out for themselves. The trap is that we wouldn't expect them to figure out plant identification on their own, or how to dress a wound on their own. Further, there's more about those topics in the current handbook than on the oath and law. Hmmm. I've seen this happen early in my 'adult" participation in the program -- while serving on a BOR, a boy is asked about meaning of oath and law, shrugs his shoulders and stares at his shoes, mutters, 'ummm, I guess the oath is something we say to remember to be good scouts" and gets a hearty congratulation from the BOR leader. I attempt to ask a follow up questions, and get shut down by the BOR organizer. The boy was passed and I had a long discussion afterwards with the BOR team. Eventually, we got better, but they were afraid to send boys back from a BOR over "idealist" issues when they were progressing in knots and fires. I ended up having to take these concerns to the direct contact leaders as a concerned father. It can be an uphill battle when it ought to be seamlessly included in the presentation of the program. That's why I'm searching for ideas on how to better incorporate character development. DuctTape commented "No discussion, just a story with an ending like "A Scout is Trustworthy". Kind of like Aesop's fables." Just curious -- why "no discussion"? I think that one of the goals here is to assure ourselves that the boys are "getting it' -- a discussion helps bring diverse points of view to the table and helps us to hear if the boys are getting confused about issues like Thrifty doesn't mean being a cheap-o or loyal means having someone's back even when they cheat or commit a crime, etc. Popular culture is sending messages in TV, movies, etc. that may not agree with the Oath and Law -- do we discuss popular movies and show good versus bad examples? Just brainstorming here. Thanks for contributing to the conversation!

Agree - its a step in the right direction, and i appreciate your input on an important topic affecting personal growth, adult association, advancement, and character development. I also recognize that this type of discussion is part of T-2-1 requirements and is typically handled as the last step of advancement, and done during the start of the scoutmaster conference. (i.e. Tenderfoot #11 -- Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life. Discuss four specific examples of how you have lived the points of the Scout Law in your daily life.) When do we (older scouts, adults, handbook, etc.) present the scout with the information needed to process, understand and master a requirement like Tenderfoot #11? I suspect that some troops could easily fall into a trap of simply expecting them to figure it out for themselves. The trap is that we wouldn't expect them to figure out plant identification on their own, or how to dress a wound on their own. Further, there's more about those topics in the current handbook than on the oath and law. Hmmm. I've seen this happen early in my 'adult" participation in the program -- while serving on a BOR, a boy is asked about meaning of oath and law, shrugs his shoulders and stares at his shoes, mutters, 'ummm, I guess the oath is something we say to remember to be good scouts" and gets a hearty congratulation from the BOR leader. I attempt to ask a follow up questions, and get shut down by the BOR organizer. The boy was passed and I had a long discussion afterwards with the BOR team. Eventually, we got better, but they were afraid to send boys back from a BOR over "idealist" issues when they were progressing in knots and fires. I ended up having to take these concerns to the direct contact leaders as a concerned father. It can be an uphill battle when it ought to be seamlessly included in the presentation of the program. That's why I'm searching for ideas on how to better incorporate character development.

So this thread started out with this comment "Thinking about how often we discuss the "honor" and "respect" Eagle Scouts so often are shown, and how they are such great positive role models in our society. And, this is primarily very true. But, I am finding myself more and more challenged to accept certain Eagles as particularly good examples to scouts or society. What is particularly embarrassing to me are the great many that now populate our government at high levels, both on the national and state levels. It seems to me that the majority of these individuals have forgotten the simple precepts of the Scout Oath and Law. Certainly few are adhering very well to them, based on their lack of simply doing the jobs for which they were elected. Some have come out with positions and statements that blatantly slap the ideals of Scouting directly across the face. Of course there are similar examples in other areas of our society; but the worst, and most egregious to me are the ones getting overpaid by us to run our country, states, and communities, yet do nothing but spar and barter for money and power for themselves and their immediate "connections". Maybe these are the Eagles that should be returning their medals, since they seem to have forgotten what it still represents, in spite of their actions" It seems that the core issue being discussed is adherence to and demonstration of scouting ideals (aka scout spirit) in everyday life -- especially for those in the public eye where it becomes obvious to reporters who check out their bio file that they are an Eagle, etc. I've also read comments lamenting the "churn out" of 50,000 eagles a year based on completing the requirements, but not integrating a permanent(positive) change in their character to walk worthy of their calling as eagles. How do we build eagles of character? Learning first aid and cooking are good life skills, but they don't really address character. I've heard that scouting ideals are not part of the educational curriculum, but learned through experiential learning (looking to adults and older scouts as role models primarily, and perhaps the odd moralistic scoutmaster minute). (http://troop113.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/scouting-ideals-merely-experiential-or-an-educational-approach/) Tenderfoot requirement #7 says to explain the oath and law in your own words. Considering that this is typically a challenge for an 11 year old, we probably have pretty low standards for what they say and how they explain something as key as "on my honor" (what does personal honor mean to an 11 year old? Did anyone discuss this and what it means to lose one's honor such as a government official who cheats on taxes, etc.) or "duty to God" (many scouters have confided to me that they're afraid to get into these discussions since many scouts come from "unchurched" homes and despite the assurance of the first clause of the declaration of religious principles actually arguing our responsibility to have that discussion) or the duty to self trio. How are we raising the bar on character? Character development is 1/3rd of the aims of BSA, but I fear it's far less than 1/3rd of the time spent during "program time" at most units considering the apparent results or legacy of scouts growing up to be people of questioned character. Does every unit encourage its members to participate in the PRAY program that best suits their home/family faith, and if unchurched, to simply pick one and learn about it? Controversial question on my part, I realize, but consider that the declaration of religious principle states that "Section 1. Declaration of Religious Principle, clause 1.The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law." The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore,recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. I highlighted the word nonsectarian since many think it actually says "SILENT" or "INDIFFERENT". Based on this reading, I would assume that most units schedule at least an annual presentation on the program (or its approximate equivalent in the local CO, etc.) just like they'd promote an OA election or NYLT -- all of which are optional programs, but still helpful to the individual in accomplishing Personal Growth (as a bone fide "method" of scouting that is equally important as the "outdoor program" or "boy led patrol method") Isn't the new JTE matrix covering this for 2014? Anyway, I'd love to hear how other units are getting to that critical "aim" of scouting -- building character. http://troop113.wordpress.com/2013/04/25/methods-of-scouting-introduction/

http://troop113.wordpress.com/2013/01/09/excerpt-from-the-scout-law-in-practice/ Way back in 1915, a booklet was published called "The Scout Law in Practice" Written by Arthur Astor Carey, its chapters are "...based upon talks to the Sea Scouts during the cruises of the Boy Scout ship, Pioneer." Mr. Carey provides a frank look at scouting ideals. The language used might be called quaint, but I'd call it effective, efficient, and descriptive. Naturally, not everyone will share Mr. Carey's opinions on all points; however, there are many interesting sections that serve to get us thinking and examining scouting ideals. From time to time, I'd like to share short excerpts that might be helpful to getting us all to reconsider how we look at and deal with scouting ideals. From Chapter Four, "The Rules of the Game": "We all know what a miserable thing a game becomes when it is not played according to the rules" "The fact is that the rules of the game are the foundation of the game; because, when the rules are not kept and the game ceases to be play[ed], it becomes a scramble or a swindling match. And for this reason fair play has been the thing which men of our race have always loved most of all, because it represents faithfulness to an obligation of honor." "True sportsmanship rests upon this foundation: that a man would rather lose a point, and indeed lose the whole game, than play against the rules..." Do you scouts believe that? Do you see that embodied in the "sportsmanship" of modern pro-athletes, government officials, teachers/professors or other elders? Do you feel a genuine call to want to see it embodied and are you willing to become part of a generation that strives to live differently? Further along in chapter four we read; "Now, when we speak of a number of laws which belong together for a common purpose, we call them a "code" such as the old Roman code or the Code Napoleon; but, when they are deeper than the civil law and apply to the inner thoughts and motives of men and not only to their outward acts, we call them a Code of Honor. This is just what the Scout Law is, and therefore it is necessary for us to study and practice it. But we must remember one thing at the very start -- that we can not understand it just by reading, or studying or even learning it by heart; but only by trying our best every day to obey it, and then carefully noting when we have succeeded and when we have failed. Doing this will help us to understand the law better and better as time goes on, and to practice it with increasingly good results. Just as a reminder, here's the Scout Law with the short explanations added. (perhaps get SPL to read it): A Scout is TRUSTWORTHY. A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is a part of his code of conduct. People can always depend on him. A Scout is LOYAL. A Scout is true to his family, friends, Scout leaders, school, nation, and world community. A Scout is HELPFUL. A Scout is concerned about other people. He willingly volunteers to help others without expecting payment or reward. A Scout is FRIENDLY. A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He seeks to understand others. He respects those with ideas and customs that are different from his own. A Scout is COURTEOUS. A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows that good manners make it easier for people to get along together. A Scout is KIND. A Scout understands there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. He does not harm or kill anything without reason. A Scout is OBEDIENT. A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobey them. A Scout is CHEERFUL. A Scout looks for the bright side of life. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy. A Scout is THRIFTY. A Scout works to pay his way and to help others. He saves for the future. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property. A Scout is BRAVE. A Scout can face danger even if he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him. A Scout is CLEAN. A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He goes around with those who believe in living by these same ideals. He helps keep his home and community clean. A Scout is REVERENT. A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others. So what do we do as scouts and scouters? Can we afford to take a break, alter our character in a business meeting, "bend the rules" when it's really critical? Of course not! Most may make a mistake, occasionally a bad choice, but as pointed out above "...by trying our best every day to obey it, and then carefully noting when we have succeeded and when we have failed" we will really understand the Scout Law. What will you commit to do differently tomorrow?

If an Eagle candidate is not supposed to solicit donations (i.e. a scout is thrifty and works to pay his own way) then why is FOS acceptable to the organization based on the ideal of being thrifty? If the council and district add value, they should reflect that in the fees charged at their events, or like our Eagle candidates, work to get the shortfall in the budget.

Scoutcraft - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoutcraft - "Scoutcraft is a term used to cover a variety of woodcraft knowledge and skills required by people seeking to venture into wild country and sustain themselves independently. The term has been adopted by Scouting organizations to reflect skills and knowledge which are felt to be a core part of the various programs, alongside community and spirituality. Skills commonly included are camping, cooking, first aid, wilderness survival, orienteering and pioneering." All of that seems relevant to a 21st century young man. Look at the interest in X games and outdoor recreation -- learning how to do it safely is valuable for several reasons -- it's a way to learn that you can acheive if you make the time to learn and practice. Self reliance and learning to work well with others is highly sought by most employers, and is timeless. The point isn't necessarily about learning first aid (however useful and life-saving it may be by itself) it's about the process of working in teams (patrols) and the other "methods" of boy scouting. Back in 1916, there were seven methods of scouting -- adult association, advancement, patrols, etc. Leadership development was added as the eigth method in 1972. Could it be that the Congressional proclimation was referring to these "methods" not suggesting that we couldn't use computers and i-phones and the internet? OR more broadly, that scouting would continue to get boys outside and teach them stuff (method), even if that stuff (content) expanded to things not yet dreamt of in 1916? RE: teaching courage -- I'd argue that exercising courage is the foundation of leadership and responsibility. It's easy to sit back and wait for someone else to take charge, and its easy to see that parents and everyone else will hold you personally accountible for scouts who didn't follow your admonitions and got hurt/lost/sick, etc. That's a real risk we take as scout leaders, and I don't know how you take that risk without courage. A cowardly leader is one who is so afraid of the possible negative consequences that he sits on the sidelines unwilling to take the risk to get to the positive reward. Our scouts learn that making mistakes shouldn't keep them from trying again -- that's another kind of courage. When we teach them about bullies, we teach them the three R's and that requires courage to implement the three R's. When we encounter a Black Bear on the trail and we teach the kids to stay calm and handle the situation properly, that takes courage and demonstrates the value of courage. Good questions, interesting discussion.

First, thank you to everyone who participates in scouting -- you're doing important work and it benefits a lot of people: youth, the community, your COR's, et.al. Together, professionals and volunteers, eagles and "wasn't a scout until now", WE make the scouting program work. Second, just want to point out that Baden Powell, William D. Boyce, James West, Ernest Seton, and Dan Beard and many other "notables" contributed an awful lot of "good stuff" to make scouting what it is today -- and they were "Adult leaders who were never Scouts as a youth!" A) don't let other scouters put you down -- that's not in keeping with scouting ideals -- and B) if you feel the need, just remind them that B-P wasn't an eagle, didn't complete arrow of light requirements, etc. and he did just fine. C) continue to take advantage of training and develop support networks -- the minute any of us believes that "we have all the answers" is either the time to take a break, or spend more time helping others who are still learning (and don't we all keep learning our whole life?" Great conversation.

We are a newly chartered troop (7 months). We grew from five transfer scouts to 18 registered with about 15-16 at most troop meetings. We have no pack to draw crossover scouts from so we will be recruiting in schools, churches, etc.